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Did Jesus baptize with the Holy Spirit?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Shan Missions, Mar 2, 2008.

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  1. Unorthodox Christian

    Unorthodox Christian New Member

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    (setfree;39393)
    I saw this scripture after I posted, and also Luke 1:67 When Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost. Can you enlighten me on this?I believe the Old testament saints were saved by faith in the blood to come. It was by there faith that was counted unto them for righteousness. But these verses have troubled me.
    Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."They were Elected, predestined Elected People just like the Prophets who received the Holy Ghost before The Son of God came to the Physical Scene. Which is why Zecharias and John both Received the Holy Ghost before the Resurrection and Ascension. ALL PROPHETS received the Holy Ghost, since John was the Elijah of his Time, and a Prophet of his Own time as Well, it was Natural for God to Give him the Holy Ghost. Just like Moses, Joshua, David etc.
     
  2. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    (Siskim;39409)
    ...it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." John 16:7"And behold I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be undued with power from on high." Luke 24:49Acts Chap. 1&2..."for John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses to me...." "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost..." People do debate and speculate and argue this subject intensely...no doubt. This baptism in the least is with the "Holy Ghost and Fire".....The big debate is do we receive this baptism at Salvation or after. What makes it difficult is that the disciples and believers in the upper room received it after they believed...but at the same time, this is when the Holy Spirit was first sent to the earth after Jesus left....so since the Holy Ghost is now who is with us in this world, as was promised, is this baptism automatic at Salvation or do we repent and then be baptised with the Holy Ghost...or...does this mean...if you repent you will be baptized or does it mean...repent and be saved and then be baptized?It's easy to stand and fight for what we think or believe...but if we are not sure, do we really want to convince others of what is not perfect positive?Maybe sometimes we argue, I mean debate..trying to convince ourselves mostly.Although mostly no one who is on the mind's plane will accept testimony as worth anything, I had the most amazing experience with this Baptism of Fire...I was as changed as Peter was after the upper room experience...many years ago. Before this I loved Jesus and loved Jesus again...but after this I distincly felt a new power, confidence, fearlessness, Boldness...and had a life changing experience vividly some time after I was saved. The details are clear and distinct even today. It was After this that we moved out to the streets and the drinking parties at the lake on saturday nights and preached to large groups of young people..some drunk...and prayed with groups of them. It was after this that I had a Boldness in the public that I did not have before. That I literally ...literally felt a blanketing...like a Comforter...and understood the scripture that says.."we have no need that any man teach us but ...this Teacher will reveal all things to us, yea, the deep things of God...Maybe I just had come into realization...of this Baptism that had already taken place...to me though it was clearly a new experience, a dramatic transformation...that was evident in me and in my outward life...proof of some change was visible even to others...and clearly to me!I have understood speaking in tongues for years, while many debate and debate this subject...I have seen evidence of this in my outward circumstances and life...when I have prayed this way...so no matter what the theological truth is...I understand anyway this Baptism...even if it was only my new "awareness" of it that brought the manifestations in my life. I know the moment that this change occurred...just like you know the moment you were saved...and the evidence followed immediately.I will not claim whether it occurs at Salvation or after, because it's a difficult subject in light of all the knowledge that is present about it...but it is very clear and evident to me and remains so and has remained so...as clearly as Salvation has. I can write a book about the wonders of this Baptism...and when you know you know because it's clearly evident in all your being and life...I think regardless of when this occurs, the signifigant thing is that we know because we have received and have and do know the resluts. For anyone who really has the desire or need or better said...wanting for the reality of this Baptism of the Holy ghost and Fire....I will not debate, but will try to help this person......siskim
    This is awsome, It is so close to my own testamony. Your post has helped me alot, because I still struggle with the two experiences. They happened seperatly with me also. But as you stated, I do not know if it was there all along and just manifested or if it was two seperate experiences. It is good to hear this.
     
  3. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    I saw this scripture after I posted, and also Luke 1:67 When Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost. Can you enlighten me on this?I believe the Old testament saints were saved by faith in the blood to come. It was by there faith that was counted unto them for righteousness. But these verses have troubled me.
    (Unorthodox Christian;39378)
    Was John Under the Blood when he Was Given the Holy Ghost upon hearing the Name of Jesus? In the Womb of Elizabeth
    Was John filled with the Holy Ghost are was Elizabeth?
     
  4. Unorthodox Christian

    Unorthodox Christian New Member

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    No Not Elizabeth, Only John. Because Remember John was Luke 7:38-For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.He Was a Prophet, All Prophets had to have the Holy Ghost. In order for them to do the Works of God, they need God in Them. REMEMBER MARK 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. John BEING a Prophet, was a Predestined Elect Just Like Jeremiah the Prophet, Jeremiah 1:5.Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.The Only People that Received the Holy Ghost Before Pentecost were Prophets. Even the Disciples couldn't get Him until Pentecost, but He(The Holy Ghost) was with them.
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    After taking my own advise and praying on this and re-reading Acts and some other studies I must apoligize to you Setfree there are so many topics I dont agree with in this thread like Water is nessary and the tongue thing which is so misunderstood and the fact that I know the apostels had the holy spirit in them. But you may be closet to being right here Heres what I learned that the Holy Spirit coming from God was on apostels but the Holy spirit through Christ was not avaiable until Pencost Day This was the change that John was speaking of that Baptism from that day forward. He was infact changing baptism from water to spirt.
     
  6. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    In Luke 1:41 it says ..when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. Then she started prophecying.
     
  7. Unorthodox Christian

    Unorthodox Christian New Member

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    In Luke 1:41 it says ..when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. Then she started prophecying.
    Man I LOVE THIS BOARD! LOL, Exhorting and Rightly dividing the Word of God. I completely forgot.
     
  8. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    (kriss;39419)
    After taking my own advise and praying on this and re-reading Acts and some other studies I must apoligize to you Setfree there are so many topics I dont agree with in this thread like Water is nessary and the tongue thing which is so misunderstood and the fact that I know the apostels had the holy spirit in them. But you may be closet to being right here Heres what I learned that the Holy Spirit coming from God was on apostels but the Holy spirit through Christ was not avaiable until Pencost Day This was the change that John was speaking of that Baptism from that day forward. He was infact changing baptism from water to spirt.
    This is where I stand too, so far. This is how I understand it. It is reasurring to hear you say this because I have a lot of respect for you from reading and learning from the knowledge God has given you. I just have to see things in scripture. My background is full of men's teachings and I am tired of being confused. So I am allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me all over. I am sorry if some of my confusion pours over into these threads, I am just seeking truth with my questions.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (setfree;39423)
    This is where I stand too, so far. This is how I understand it. It is reasurring to hear you say this because I have a lot of respect for you from reading and learning from the knowledge God has given you. I just have to see things in scripture. My background is full of men's teachings and I am tired of being confused. So I am allowing the Holy Spirit to teach me all over. I am sorry if some of my confusion pours over into these threads, I am just seeking truth with my questions.
    A noble goal it should be all our goal not winning debates and if questions force us at times to let go of our preconceived ideas and re-evaluate that is a good thing because our goal should be the truth of his Word as it is written not what we have been told. Thats what true fellowship should be about.
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I don't really care about debating people...it's too pointless as all it does build up pride. It's so aweful...JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  11. haanne

    haanne New Member

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    (kriss;39419)
    After taking my own advise and praying on this and re-reading Acts and some other studies I must apoligize to you Setfree there are so many topics I dont agree with in this thread like Water is nessary and the tongue thing which is so misunderstood and the fact that I know the apostels had the holy spirit in them. But you may be closet to being right here Heres what I learned that the Holy Spirit coming from God was on apostels but the Holy spirit through Christ was not avaiable until Pencost Day This was the change that John was speaking of that Baptism from that day forward. He was infact changing baptism from water to spirt.
    Kriss, I have not read acts in so long I think I need to go back and re-read it too. I for got that Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the kingdom.Peter (petra) which means rock .The coming of the spirit filled church(if you will ) was being prophesied about.the " tounge thing" were diffrent languages .The languages of the people who were gathered from all over. Why is it that thespirit did not come until penecost? I m remebering that it had something to dowith Gods new church, New in Christ. And them spreading the gospel.
     
  12. Unorthodox Christian

    Unorthodox Christian New Member

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    I don't really care about debating people...it's too pointless as all it does build up pride. It's so aweful...JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    It supposed to be reasoning, But it gets to a point People Get Haughty Minded. Then instead of Trying to reason it Out with scripture, the following will happen. One will be so haughty minded they think it's pointless to reason, One will say the Other is Wrong, Bashing will ensue. REASON NOT DEBATE!:bible:
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (haanne;39521)
    Kriss, I have not read acts in so long I think I need to go back and re-read it too. I for got that Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the kingdom.Peter (petra) which means rock .The coming of the spirit filled church(if you will ) was being prophesied about.the " tounge thing" were diffrent languages .The languages of the people who were gathered from all over. Why is it that thespirit did not come until penecost? I m remebering that it had something to dowith Gods new church, New in Christ. And them spreading the gospel.
    The way Im understanding this is baptism by Gods Holy spirit was always available but it was on Pencost day after Christ died that the change took place. you could not be baptised in the Name of Christ untill that Penecost DayNow I was given a revelation of understanding when I prayed on this and I dont that it is written just this way but heres what I was given That there was always available the Father and the Holy Ghost/SpiritBut on Pencost Day was the first time the Son sitting at the right hand of God was avaiable to us to come through thus the trinity was legallycomplete.Making being baptised in the Name of the Father, Son ,Holy Ghost the legal baptisim replacing water with the full sprit of the Godhead.Before this we could only be baptied by the Father and the holy spiritand the Water represented the Son who was to come and replace it.This was a new revelation to me which Ive not heard before related to the full completion of the trinity I can only say this is what I was given
     
  14. haanne

    haanne New Member

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    okay I can see where you are going with that . I too believe that" Gods Holy spirit was always available but it was on Pencost day after Christ died that the change took place. you could not be baptised in the Name of Christ untill that Penecost Day" Im going to look into this some more because things are starting to connect for me. ... ...
     
  15. Siskim

    Siskim New Member

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    You know what's interesting? That God has greatly used people/great christian leaders...who had differring views on the smaller of Doctrinal views...like the differrent Millennial views, or forever saved vs you can lose salvation, many more...I remember realizing this as a young Christian and just remembered. I think it's cool how some have said that it's cool to them to be thinking/learning by the conversation...that's nice. I love to hear people admit when they aren't positive about something because does it fret any of you when you think of new people perhaps being confused by our differring points of view or beliefs?So that's why I admitted I can't say for sure the Baptism of Holy Ghost is another experience...though I believed it fully 20 years ago when I had a very real and dramatic experience and change. We can be wrong when we think we are so right!But the point is to not let any discussion become exalted in our minds and efforts toward others above Christ or the knowledge of Him...because then we may miss the mark, because "the wisdom of man makes the Word of God of no effect." And you know that too, and don't take me wrong...I get away from the mark myself sometimes.But it's encouraging and nice to hear the presence of brotherly love in the talk...you can sense it...and if any of us can learn something more from each other...makes me think...of the body of Christ...how one is a teacher and one a preacher, and evangelist, one giver of mercy, encouragement, some know some things by knowledge and experience moreso than some things or some people...none of us have it all...that's why a many membered body.For those whose motive is sincerely to grow and learn and teach and receive and have God's spirit of love present doing what His spirit does when we are together in His name....maybe some might try to put together a thing they have knowledge and experience in...and feel a good clear conscience about it before God, so not to make another stumble...The next post is my contribution...but can't take the time I wish because right now too much school work...theology of all things! ha ha. But wanted to say..nice Setfree...that you understand my experience! I think I could put together atleast a thing on what this Baptism of Fire means to us...provides and makes of us and causes in our effort to carry out the Great Commission...and will like to do that for any who would like to understand in a deeper way...but for now............next post......siskim
     
  16. Siskim

    Siskim New Member

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    I learned years ago by a teaching on the gifts of the body that my post was the Encourager...and many years have further confirmed it...how do I know? It's what I do! It's what I do all the time...in all environments. It's my heart to lift people up, also build people...not just generally in the Faith, but in their own particular callings! That's signifigant to me. By this I have learned more about who I am...what I have within me to offer, and seem to see that I can offer the most within the certain anointings or callings or gifts/talents God has put in me...and at same time...see that by helping other people to "recognize" who they are...well, let's put it this way....I saw once a very quiet, meek and humble man...who never hardly spoke in our all the time prayer meetings...the kind who then gets left out because he is so quiet we talk most to the more involved people...Amen? I saw him grow...and bloom into a man that had a healing ministry...before all this he wasn't even a passionate follower. His son, also similar to him, also concerned so about healing...had angelic visitation once, and the angel told him one thing..."Jesus said, is it easier for me to say thy sins be forgiven or take up your bed and walk?" God gave him an answer for his great concern.How do we know who we are? Sometimes a person or prophet comes along and tells us or "by the laying on of hands..." we receive some gift...or are made aware of it from God through someone...a prophet?Another way is to watch and notice what we do best or most or have such desire for...not always that "I wanna be a preacher!"...but is it a gut feeling that life somewhere gives confirmation of, or God? Someone said, "Desire is a manifestation of power, it is our talents seeking to express themselves." I think true...have had prophets tell me or lay on me callings that I already saw myself in or felt in my heart, etc...confirmation?Keeping in mind that the callings and gifts are for the edifying and building of the body, and not self glory, and also that we have potential to bring forth fruit from the talents we are given....Romans 12...Gift of:Ministry...alot of types of ministry...from Pastoring, teaching, leading, to many other things...who are we in ministry? What is our part? do it with diligence.Prophecy...this can be a sticky subject...we've talked about a true Prophet always being correct, his words or message always lead people to God and not away, always edify, exhort, can rebuke...some have gift of prophecy, perhaps not a a specific Office of Prophet...and many know do not understand and thus do not believe in tongues or prophetic messages of this sort...but..."with stammering lips and another tongue will I speak to this people," "When we know not what we ought to pray the Spirit itself "helps" us, with groanings and such...that cannot be utterred," to me it's simple...have prayed this way for years. The Baptist thought we went to the devil! But I still respect and love those Baptists today who stood my feet on the solid ground of Salvation by Grace. But...results happen when you pray by the spirit in this way...not knowing how to pray as you ought but the Spirit "gives utterance." The Spirit also gives utterance in groups like church...this is when there is supposed to be an interpreter..so that all may understand. As far as us always understanding what we are praying alone? It doesn't always matter...what matters is the Spirit is helping us and invisible things are being accomplished. We can get into scripture on this later...but there are those who have a prophetic calling...I feel God has enlightened me some on this...as I said before...a Desire that became a known gift....so I hungered for the knowledge...still learning by the "Teacher"....Holy Spirit...I don't understand as some I see...but do understand that it's out of your spirit where God is...that out of Love...things come that you feel such a compelling to say to people....not out of mind! but out of Spirit...love...it's another subject that deserves more depth....Teacher...people who are good at not preaching here...but teaching...patient...can make things line up for people with scripture and insight and revelation of what's being taught...and naturally these people enjoy helping people to be taught things...not just to hear things or be motivated or inspired...Giver...do it with "simplicity"...not letting the left hand know what the right is doing...always giving to people...for people...Mercy...a gift? apparently so. Do it with "cheerfullness". This and others can be a gift among many we have.I think there are endless gifts and callings...yet some clear and specific in the Church. Being an encourager I love to see people Recognize who they are, what's in them, what they have to give...to build the invisible Church..the body....I have seen even here differrent people who give differrent things...even on one subject they come from a differrent point of giving...I can't do justice to this right now...but it's thought for you...who are you? What do you give? What's your heart to give? What do you notice in your life that you always do? And then...we can't say that the foot isn't needful but only the head....right? All are necessary and all make the whole whole.We aren't all teachers or evangelists. So wait on our ministry whatever it is. siskim
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    dearest siskim I do love the spirit of your post but there is no muttering,babble, unknown tongue written in scripture there is only language that is forgein Languages dilects that is the exact meaning of the word tongues I know you many others do not agree but I can not let it go without telling the truth I do not care to debate it here this site is full of these debates that you can read if you like. Its no secret to anyone here that I find this a misinterptation of scripture and a modern Day teaching of men Pencost Day was about God speaking and All Understanding not babble. I know this will not change anyones mind who practices this but I feel obligated to give the other side for our readers. If you want to discuss this we can start a New Thread God Bless
     
  18. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Unorthodox Christian;39522)
    (thesuperjag;39450)
    I don't really care about debating people...it's too pointless as all it does build up pride. It's so aweful...JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    It supposed to be reasoning, But it gets to a point People Get Haughty Minded. Then instead of Trying to reason it Out with scripture, the following will happen. One will be so haughty minded they think it's pointless to reason, One will say the Other is Wrong, Bashing will ensue. REASON NOT DEBATE!:bible:I don't disagree with reasoning (Isaiah 1:18) but I hate debating like I said on my quote.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  19. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    (kriss;39299)
    Well Im a she not a he and coming from one who believes in a rapture which was never in the Bible And in fact Gods says he hates fly away doctrine. I would not be so so quick to make judgements isnt it strange that the Rapture believers Satans biggest lie and people who follow a mens words instead of Gods Word are blind to the truth. Ill let God be my judge thanks
    If you can't get the basic foundation right, Rebirth, water baptism and Baptism in the Holy Ghost, which are so clear in the Bible, how can you be an authority on the second coming of Jesus. Give me scripture that says, the Church goes through the tribulation, I don't mean the Jews, the backsliders or the people saved during the tribulation, I mean the church.In my teaching on the pre-trib rapture I have given scripture that proves the church wont be here. Before you answer this question, you have to remember, when Jesus is talking, who is He talking to, The Jews, the mid trib believers, or the Church.
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I do have it right you dont have the begining or ending right I do understand the end just fine you are leading people astray right into Satans arms and there isnt any scripture supporting the rapture unless you lie No body has ever been able to find one unless you twist Gods word and ignore the rest the gathering to our Lord will be in After The man of lawlessness(2 thess.) comes which is antichrist for the sake of your own soul you need to wake up you will be judged for misleading Gods sheep if you ever what to listen to truth we can discuss this. In a new thread
     
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