Did Speaking In Tongues Pass Away With The Early Church ?

[bbyrd009]

NT. The age of grace.

because let's be honest, we are as mired in law as any in the Bible. That we are now in the dispensation of grace, and under the covenant of grace, hardly means that we practice it corporately now, imo; or that grace was non-existent OT. Judge not, lest you be judged directly states that if you judge, you will be judged, doesn't it? This is NT, is it not? (hadda go check anyway, lol)

 

[bbyrd009]

so, anyone find the OT analogy of Speaking in Tongues yet?

 

[amadeus]

so, anyone find the OT analogy of Speaking in Tongues yet?

The verses quoted in Isaiah 28 [post #56] touch on the tongues.

Precise analogies in OT may be hard or even impossible to find, but there are several which together at least hint at it for me. Some are:

In Genesis the dreams of Joseph and those of Pharaoh which Joseph interpreted.

In Daniel chapter 5 we see the king receive a writing on the wall condemning him that required interpretation.

Ahimaaz wanted to run with tidings of the battle between the forces of David and those of his son, Absalom. Joab refused to sent him but after another was sent with the real message, Ahimaaz took it on himself to run, but without a message [see II Sam 18:19].

These verses and probably others show both the negative and positive sides of "tongues" as mentioned on this thread.

 

[amadeus]

speaking in such a way so as to need an interpreter is a gift? Or do you mean the other kind of tongues? See how we have this dichotomy at even the definition of tongues? This is not unintentional imo, this is constructed on purpose.

also, i don't mean to imply "ritual, bad" ok, that is not what i meant. But the ritual has a real world application, and that is what is important, whereas the ritual without the understanding is meaningless.

imo

Everything anyone finds in scripture, be it positive or negative, I believe, has a purpose for God. But... always we must remember that people may work either as the right hand or the left hand of God. Being led by the Holy Spirit is a good thing, but there are those who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit who likely are led by a very different spirit, at least part of the time. But, then again...

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Rom 8:28

 

[bbyrd009]

The verses quoted in Isaiah 28 [post #56] touch on the tongues.

Precise analogies in OT may be hard or even impossible to find, but there are several which together at least hint at it for me. Some are:

In Genesis the dreams of Joseph and those of Pharaoh which Joseph interpreted.

In Daniel chapter 5 we see the king receive a writing on the wall condemning him that required interpretation.

Ahimaaz wanted to run with tidings of the battle between the forces of David and those of his son, Absalom. Joab refused to sent him but after another was sent with the real message, Ahimaaz took it on himself to run, but without a message [see II Sam 18:19].

These verses and probably others show both the negative and positive sides of "tongues" as mentioned on this thread.

hmm, i guess they refer to it right enough, obliquely, hardly with the force of Tower of Babbel though, but sure, ok.
They even provide some good examples i guess, even if you might first have to show how they relate to SiT.

 

[bbyrd009]

Everything anyone finds in scripture, be it positive or negative, I believe, has a purpose for God. But... always we must remember that people may work either as the right hand or the left hand of God. Being led by the Holy Spirit is a good thing, but there are those who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit who likely are led by a very different spirit, at least part of the time. But, then again...

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Rom 8:28

hey, i agree completely--either SiT has practical applications outside what we now define as "church," or it does not, in which case one's current understanding will just be reinforced at my expense, and i will owe you guys an apology.

Are we looking for/any evidence of "flames like tongues of fire" literally settling on anyone's head, recently? Any evidence of "crowds amazed," over and above the singular statements of some witness that dribble in here and there, unsubstantiated? Iow can anyone refer me to an instance where even Two Witnesses might tell me the same story? A, can you bring us a witness to your previous one?

ps, and are we aware that there are people dedicated to finding one of these, if one exists, and corroborating it for posterity via youtube and etc, yet they have none as of yet that meet their criteria? And these people are trying to establish it, not put it down, ok.

 

[amadeus]

hmm, i guess they refer to it right enough, obliquely, hardly with the force of Tower of Babbel though, but sure, ok.
They even provide some good examples i guess, even if you might first have to show how they relate to SiT.

Of course taking the other side of it we should consider the words penned by Solomon:

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us." Ecc 1:9-10

But there are new things seemingly, or are they old things that were simply not previously or even presently recognized as something old?

Consider also this:

"And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!" Numbers 11:27-29

And these:

"And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them.
And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?
And one of the same place answered and said, But who is their father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets?" I Sam 10:10-12

"And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?" I Sam 19:24

Lots of strange things going on and who would say definitely that none of these included what we now see as or describe as "speaking in unknown tongues"?

 

[bbyrd009]

prolly a good spot to confess that i am left-handed, lol

 

[amadeus]

Are we looking for/any evidence of "flames like tongues of fire" literally settling on anyone's head, recently? Any evidence of "crowds amazed," over and above the singular statements of some witness that dribble in here and there, unsubstantiated? Iow can anyone refer me to an instance where even Two Witnesses might tell me the same story? A, can you bring us a witness to your previous one?

Even the two witnesses can be confused or misused as we see by Naboth's experience [I Kings 21]. He simply wanted to obey the law and keep the land which was his according to the law and the law of two witnesses [false witnesses] was used against to get him stoned to death.

Because while it remained or remains only a type or a shadow of the real thing, people can and do abuse it for different reasons.

This brings us back to the words of Jesus:
"But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matt 18:17-20

Jesus was speaking of no fallible or insubstantial type or shadow here, but of the real thing: "tell it to the church", "gathered in my name".

What is the "church" about which Jesus speaks? No group by man alone.
What does He mean by "in my name"? More than someone who is simply mouthing the words "in Jesus name".

ps, and are we aware that there are people dedicated to finding one of these, if one exists, and corroborating it for posterity via youtube and etc, yet they have none as of yet that meet their criteria? And these people are trying to establish it, not put it down, ok.

People are doing lots of things for lots of different reasons, some good, some not so good. The results are...?

 

[amadeus]

prolly a good spot to confess that i am left-handed, lol

My father was left handed and my wife is left handed. If this is problem it could be a problem. LOL

 

[bbyrd009]

The results are...?

Babbel, imo, as Paul wrote in, and scribes have mostly written out at this point

 

[amadeus]

Babbel, imo, as Paul wrote in, and scribes have mostly written out at this point

Yes, there is a lot of confusion among what men call the churches, but...

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor 14:33

So then God is not the author of all of this mess and/or we are not among the saints [set apart by God].

Help us all dear Lord!

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, there is a lot of confusion among what men call the churches, but...

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor 14:33

So then God is not the author of all of this mess and/or we are not among the saints [set apart by God].

Help us all dear Lord!

i have seen enough congregations now that were very grace centered go whacky whatever kind of way that i currently take that verse as kind of tongue-in-cheek, as it seems obvious to me that any grace-centered congregation is going to be attacked, and that is going to bring confusion, and that is going to teach valuable lessons i guess.

Now there might actually be a congregation that weathers attacks without confusion, i don't know, but something i have noticed in all of the melt-downs is that confusion might describe the many, but there are always a few who retain their peace, going mostly unnoticed.

 

[Helen]

because let's be honest, we are as mired in law as any in the Bible. That we are now in the dispensation of grace, and under the covenant of grace, hardly means that we practice it corporately now, imo; or that grace was non-existent OT. Judge not, lest you be judged directly states that if you judge, you will be judged, doesn't it? This is NT, is it not? (hadda go check anyway, lol)

I agree, shaking free from the law does seem a task which dogs out steps... yet ,Isn’t that the whole message of our faith? Believing that God did do , in Jesus , all that He said that He did?
Now, whether “ Judge not...” etc is old or new , is a whole different story.
My hubby contends that the NT starts in the book of Acts ...not Matthew...because..

“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.”

 

[bbyrd009]

My hubby contends that the NT starts in the book of Acts ...not Matthew...because..

“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.”

hmm, an interesting perspective! The Gospels are quite "transitional" in a way that other Books just are not.

 

[amadeus]

i have seen enough congregations now that were very grace centered go whacky whatever kind of way that i currently take that verse as kind of tongue-in-cheek, as it seems obvious to me that any grace-centered congregation is going to be attacked, and that is going to bring confusion, and that is going to teach valuable lessons i guess.

Now there might actually be a congregation that weathers attacks without confusion, i don't know, but something i have noticed in all of the melt-downs is that confusion might describe the many, but there are always a few who retain their peace, going mostly unnoticed.

But... the unnoticed probably are noticed by God!