Difference between Catholic and Protestant.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,561
6,410
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
"false self-serving doctrines and accepted idolatrous practices." is stupid insulting bigotry and intensely anti-Catholic.

Scripture in the form of art is not forbidden in the Bible. You made it into a false dogma following Calvin's insane iconoclasm. You have a different definition of "doctrine" and "idolatry" that renders any reasonable discussion impossible.

That is the seedbed of your prejudice. You were never a practicing Catholic as you never fell in love. You reject false caricatures, not the real thing as obviously you don't know what you are talking about.

Allow me to enlighten you:

1. The Gospel of life is at the heart of Jesus' message. Lovingly received day after day by the Church, it is to be preached with dauntless fidelity as "good news" to the people of every age and culture.

At the dawn of salvation, it is the Birth of a Child which is proclaimed as joyful news: "I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people; for to you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord" (Lk 2:10-11). The source of this "great joy" is the Birth of the Saviour; but Christmas also reveals the full meaning of every human birth, and the joy which accompanies the Birth of the Messiah is thus seen to be the foundation and fulfilment of joy at every child born into the world (cf. Jn 16:21).

When he presents the heart of his redemptive mission, Jesus says: "I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly" (Jn 10:10). In truth, he is referring to that "new" and "eternal" life which consists in communion with the Father, to which every person is freely called in the Son by the power of the Sanctifying Spirit. It is precisely in this "life" that all the aspects and stages of human life achieve their full significance.

The incomparable worth of the human person

2. Man is called to a fullness of life which far exceeds the dimensions of his earthly existence, because it consists in sharing the very life of God. The loftiness of this supernatural vocation reveals the greatness and the inestimable value of human life even in its temporal phase. Life in time, in fact, is the fundamental condition, the initial stage and an integral part of the entire unified process of human existence. It is a process which, unexpectedly and undeservedly, is enlightened by the promise and renewed by the gift of divine life, which will reach its full realization in eternity (cf. 1 Jn 3:1-2). At the same time, it is precisely this supernatural calling which highlights the relative character of each individual's earthly life. After all, life on earth is not an "ultimate" but a "penultimate" reality; even so, it remains a sacred reality entrusted to us, to be preserved with a sense of responsibility and brought to perfection in love and in the gift of ourselves to God and to our brothers and sisters.

The Church knows that this Gospel of life, which she has received from her Lord, 1 has a profound and persuasive echo in the heart of every person-believer and non-believer alike-because it marvellously fulfils all the heart's expectations while infinitely surpassing them. Even in the midst of difficulties and uncertainties, every person sincerely open to truth and goodness can, by the light of reason and the hidden action of grace, come to recognize in the natural law written in the heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15) the sacred value of human life from its very beginning until its end, and can affirm the right of every human being to have this primary good respected to the highest degree. Upon the recognition of this right, every human community and the political community itself are founded.

In a special way, believers in Christ must defend and promote this right, aware as they are of the wonderful truth recalled by the Second Vatican Council: "By his incarnation the Son of God has united himself in some fashion with every human being".2 This saving event reveals to humanity not only the boundless love of God who "so loved the world that he gave his only Son" (Jn 3:16), but also the incomparable value of every human person.

The Church, faithfully contemplating the mystery of the Redemption, acknowledges this value with ever new wonder.3 She feels called to proclaim to the people of all times this "Gospel", the source of invincible hope and true joy for every period of history. The Gospel of God's love for man, the Gospel of the dignity of the person and the Gospel of life are a single and indivisible Gospel.

For this reason, man-living man-represents the primary and fundamental way for the Church. 4
Evangelium Vitae (25 March 1995) | John Paul II


R.4a68a4abf3dfc8aa34dea793f3f7363f


I hope you grow beyond your knee-jerk bigotry and baseless insults.
Upon reading this, tell me if I'm wrong in concluding that in summary, I could say Catholics believe their salvation comes from the sinless life of Christ? That the merits of His life is imparted to the repentant sinner and is thus saved from sin? That's the gospel according to catholicism?
A corollary to that I assume is the impartation of the merits of the lives of Mary and various saints that sustain the Catholic in his faith? I don't quite understand the details of that, but is that generally correct?
Is this a too difficult question?
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No one is born into faith. We're born of flesh and blood and at God's election we are born again of Spirit.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God."
John 1:12-13

Anybody can play at ritual and religion, but only God saves and He doesn't need our help, never did, never will.

Are you saved?
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yup, and so RCC doctrine sacrifices Christ at every single communion service to satisfy a transsubstantiation of the elements. In RCC ritual the work of the cross is never done, and when Jesus said "It is finished", He meant except every time "communion" is ministered by a priest.
Believe what you want. Neither my belief or your's defines truth. His word is truth.

“it is finished” what is the it?
Why is there a temple and an altar in heaven? Rev 11
What is an altar used for!
Why does it say Christ is eternal priest heb 7:17
If Christ is high priest heb 8:1 does that imply low priests of the same order offering the same sacrifice as indicated by mal 1:11

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Bunk, fantasy, superstition, institutionalized carnal thought and spiritual blindness.

It's absolutely amazing that you attribute the teaching of the Holy Spirit to the doctrines of the Reformers. That actually strengthens their arguments and weakens yours.

There is no "storehouse " of merit
There is no limbo
There is no Purgatory
There is no transubstantiation
There is no priestly distribution of grace
There is no intermediary between man and God, but His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and His body, the born again saints in Christ Jesus.
There is no justification for misappropriation of scripture to validate carnal doctrine.
A doctrine of free will that denies God's election denies His word and makes salvation a choice of men. Good luck with that.

And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion to whom I will show compassion.”
Exodus 33:19

There is a storehouse the throne of mary found in heb 4:16

No transubstantiation?

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

first: is it really and truly bread?
Second: this is my body, is really and truly his body and no longer bread?

Jn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Don’t forget Jn 14:6
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Bunk, fantasy, superstition, institutionalized carnal thought and spiritual blindness.

It's absolutely amazing that you attribute the teaching of the Holy Spirit to the doctrines of the Reformers. That actually strengthens their arguments and weakens yours.

There is no "storehouse " of merit
There is no limbo
There is no Purgatory
There is no transubstantiation
There is no priestly distribution of grace
There is no intermediary between man and God, but His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and His body, the born again saints in Christ Jesus.
There is no justification for misappropriation of scripture to validate carnal doctrine.
A doctrine of free will that denies God's election denies His word and makes salvation a choice of men. Good luck with that.

And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion to whom I will show compassion.”
Exodus 33:19

Christ is the only mediator of justice true but:

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Matt 18:17 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42
1 Tim 3:15

Fundamentalism drives a wedge between Christ and his church, separates Christ from His kingdom, and the authority of Christ from the new covenant!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema

Extends to the truth and the church

Cos Christ is the truth and His church teaches the truth without error! Jn 14:6 matt 28:19 matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:15 Jn 29:21-23 Jn 16:13

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What is the purpose of infant baptism?

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

Infant Baptism is biblical!

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Promise is to you’re children! Vs 39

This promise made in ez 36
A promise from God is a sacred oath, and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Acts 16:15 entire household baptized! Does not say except infants!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness.

(It does not say accept infants!)

Baptism is the Christian initiation sacrament of the new covenant for all men. Matt 28:19 Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (It does not say except infants!) (but it does say “all”)!

Lk 1:10-11 all people including infants

Thee faith is required for baptism.
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

If it’s not possible (as in the case of infants) it’s not required.

But the promise of the parents to raise and educate the child in the faith is required, then the child is confirmed in thee faith at the age of reason.

Repentance is required for baptism. Acts 2:38

If there is no personal sin to repent of (as in the case of infants) then it’s not required.

For two thousand years the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles has always baptized infants!
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No purgatory?

Biblical Purgatory:

Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

St. Francis de Sales commented:

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory.

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:

ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:

These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)

The children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt are a type of purgatory as the promised land is a type of heaven:
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am one with Catholics, but only those who have been born again of His Spirit. That doesn't come by way of sacrament and never did.

Sacraments instituted by Christ for the salvation of souls!

It’s not a do it yourself religion!
It’s not a bible study!

It’s a covenant!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” aint biblical!

You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21 eph 2:20

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!

Psalm 51 Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ!

The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10
And they are applied to our souls in the church by faith and the seven sacraments!

“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by baptism!

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

Jn 10:10 life, (grace more abundantly)
Jn 1: 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jn 1:16-17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(Thru faith and the sacraments!)
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Bunk, fantasy, superstition, institutionalized carnal thought and spiritual blindness.

It's absolutely amazing that you attribute the teaching of the Holy Spirit to the doctrines of the Reformers. That actually strengthens their arguments and weakens yours.

There is no "storehouse " of merit
There is no limbo
There is no Purgatory
There is no transubstantiation
There is no priestly distribution of grace
There is no intermediary between man and God, but His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and His body, the born again saints in Christ Jesus.
There is no justification for misappropriation of scripture to validate carnal doctrine.
A doctrine of free will that denies God's election denies His word and makes salvation a choice of men. Good luck with that.

And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion to whom I will show compassion.”
Exodus 33:19

you forgot Mary is our spiritual mother and mother of our salvation!
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,953
3,398
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No one is born into faith. We're born of flesh and blood and at God's election we are born again of Spirit.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God."
John 1:12-13

Anybody can play at ritual and religion, but only God saves and He doesn't need our help, never did, never will.
That’s why I put QUOTES around the phrase “Born into”.
I qualified it by explaining that it was BAPTISM that enters us into the New Covenant and makes us Born Again. Scriptures is explicit about this (John 3:5, Acts 2:38).

The Bible is ALSO clear that we are NOT saved simply by God willing it. God wills the salvation opf ALL PEOLE and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4).
Will ALL be saved?? NO.

Salvation REQUIRES our cooperation with God’ grace. If we don’t cooperate with God’s grace - we cannot HOPE to be saved.
It’s always BEEN this way and will always BE this way . . .
 
  • Like
Reactions: michaelvpardo

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Bunk, fantasy, superstition, institutionalized carnal thought and spiritual blindness.

It's absolutely amazing that you attribute the teaching of the Holy Spirit to the doctrines of the Reformers.
Please use the quote feature instead of making up things I never said.
That actually strengthens their arguments and weakens yours.

There is no "storehouse " of merit
There is no limbo
There is no Purgatory
There is no transubstantiation
There is no priestly distribution of grace
There is no intermediary between man and God, but His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, and His body, the born again saints in Christ Jesus.
There is no justification for misappropriation of scripture to validate carnal doctrine.
A doctrine of free will that denies God's election denies His word and makes salvation a choice of men. Good luck with that.
This is called "the shot gun tactic", or "carpet bombing". This tactic is often employed when someone can't refute my posts. Your flailing away also a temper tantrum. Sometimes it appears you want to have a civilized discussion, but this is just anger.
 
Last edited:

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That’s why I put QUOTES around the phrase “Born into”.
I qualified it by explaining that it was BAPTISM that enters us into the New Covenant and makes us Born Again. Scriptures is explicit about this (John 3:5, Acts 2:38).

The Bible is ALSO clear that we are NOT saved simply by God willing it. God wills the salvation opf ALL PEOLE and that ALL come to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4).
Will ALL be saved?? NO.

Salvation REQUIRES our cooperation with God’ grace. If we don’t cooperate with God’s grace - we cannot HOPE to be saved.
It’s always BEEN this way and will always BE this way . . .
I would agree that our carnal thinking perceives our part as contributing to salvation, but our perception is limited and disagrees with multiple passages of scripture.
For example, the Apostle Paul expresses this dichotomy of perception in the epistle Philippians

"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure."
Philippians 2:12-13

The passage is written as a logical contradiction, but addresses our perception that we are "working out our own salvation", while it is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God working within us both to have the will or desire and the power to do so.

Do you believe that the human will is stronger than God's?
Or, do you believe that God's will is frustrated by our wicked, selfish, rebellious hearts?
That's not the God I serve.

Job 42
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Please use the quote feature instead of making up things I never said. This is called "the shot gun tactic", or "carpet bombing". This tactic is often employed when someone can't refute my posts. Your flailing away also a temper tantrum. Sometimes it appears you want to have a civilized discussion, but this is just anger.
Call it whatever you want. I've explained that I shared my witness and testimony.
You said that this was subjective, duh.
There is no such thing as an objective testimony.
You're just wasting my time with pointless self contradictory arguments that you can't "win," simply because you base them entirely on objective regurgitation of dogma, unsupported by personal experience of God.
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
23,523
40,148
113
52
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Lets see , the title of this thread is the DIFFERENCE between catholic and protestant .
The scary thing is its getting almost impossible to tell the difference , as many are now running home and being led
by their own leaders right back into catholicism . ITS EVERYWHERE , like a plague
and all under a banner of all inclusivism which totally trods CHRIST under foot .
I never seen a spell like this grow so fast . You got it all over JERSUALEM TOO . the all inclusive has taken
many right into its web of deciet . My advice , RETURN to BIBLES and CLING TO CHRIST . HURRY cause this tidal wave
of delusion aint slowing down its speeding up .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,402
2,594
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The church comes from God and is eternal and ir-reformable
Who said? I can show you example after example where God declared Israel "no more" His people, but showed mercy after they repented. But, we're supposed to believe Catholicism is immune to the same punishment? I assure you, Catholicism dragged Christ's church off the deep end and is no more God's "end time" church than the one "Stephen Christ" founded in his prison cell.
there is no list of the Ten Commandments in scripture!!!
Ex 20 contains all of them but not in any particular order
Ex 20:2-6 is the first commandment according to context and content
There's a list of commandments God wrote Himself (because He didn't even trust Moses to write them) and they number in a denomination of ten......the "TEN COMMANDMENTS".
 

Phoneman777

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2015
7,402
2,594
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Now the way to reach Christ is not hard to find: it is the Church. Rightly does Chrysostom inculcate: “The Church is thy hope, the Church is thy salvation, the Church is thy refuge.” (“Hom. de capto Euthropio,” n. 6.) It was for this that Christ founded it, gaining it at the price of His blood, and made it the depositary of His doctrine and His laws, bestowing upon it at the same time an inexhaustible treasury of graces for the sanctification and salvation of men.

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Obedience of the faithful Christians or spiritual anarchy of the heretical fundamentalists!

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

Sacramental life: Jn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
I didn't read any of this. What I want is to be disproven concerning the following:

Christ's end time church will be IDENTICAL to the one He founded in the beginning, and keep the same "commandments of God" which He kept and taught in the beginning, according to Revelation 12:17 KJV.

Catholicism, by their own admission, claims to have CHANGED God's commandments and teaches Catholics to adhere to those changes, thereby disqualifying the entire organization as the "remnant church" of Jesus Christ.

Now, while I appreciate the ECFs, their testimony here is IRRELEVANT. The only question is this: Does Catholicism keep and teach others to keep the same commandments Jesus taught His church to keep? The simple answer is "NO".
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,354
113
63
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I would agree that our carnal thinking perceives our part as contributing to salvation, but our perception is limited and disagrees with multiple passages of scripture.
For example, the Apostle Paul expresses this dichotomy of perception in the epistle Philippians

"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure."
Philippians 2:12-13

The passage is written as a logical contradiction, but addresses our perception that we are "working out our own salvation", while it is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God working within us both to have the will or desire and the power to do so.

Do you believe that the human will is stronger than God's?
Or, do you believe that God's will is frustrated by our wicked, selfish, rebellious hearts?
That's not the God I serve.

Job 42

simply referring to God’s grace working in us!

God’s grace is imparted to us at baptism / born again / regeneration
 
Status
Not open for further replies.