Divinity Verses Deity of Jesus Christ.

[Brakelite]

I guess you have never read other posts of mine....we do believe that Jesus was divine, of divine origin and divinely authorized.
We just don't believe he was deity on the same level as his superior Father.

Scripture is crystal clear that by way of rank, the Father is superior. But by way of attributes, and glory, and authority, they are equal. When Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the Jews knew what he was claiming. They knew that what he was claiming wasn't a sonship like Jews had with God. Nor was it in an adopted sense such as we have. Nor was it as a created being like everyone else. The Jews knew the Sonship Jesus laid claim to, was familial. Not just relational. He was claiming deity and and the authority that went with it. Even the demons recognized Him. So should you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Those options aren't scriptural certainly. But there is another option that is scriptural, and reveals Jesus as divine. Why aren't you offering that as the only viable alternative seeing you doesn't hold any more water than the two you first maligned?

I acknowledge that Jesus is "divine" but he is just not "God Almighty". Divinity is not necessarily deity.
He is of divine origin and has divine authority, but he is not Yahweh.
The Greek "theos" (god) can be used to describe anything that can be worshipped.
Jesus was never worshipped because he was human. The magi e.g. did not render "worship" to a god, but rather obeisance to a new King.

When honor is paid to a human it is "obeisance" but when directed to God it is "worship". (pro·sky·neʹo)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Scripture is crystal clear that by way of rank, the Father is superior. But by way of attributes, and glory, and authority, they are equal. When Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the Jews knew what he was claiming. They knew that what he was claiming wasn't a sonship like Jews had with God. Nor was it in an adopted sense such as we have. Nor was it as a created being like everyone else. The Jews knew the Sonship Jesus laid claim to, was familial. Not just relational. He was claiming deity and and the authority that went with it. Even the demons recognized Him. So should you.

According to the trinity doctrine, all are co-equal and co-eternal. The Bible does not support his being a deity at all. Not once did Jesus even suggest equality with his Father in any way. His authority over the demons was known long before his earthly mission. They had to beg him not to command them to go into the abyss....they knew exactly who he was.....Michael the Archangel.....powerful commander of all the angels....God's "firstborn".

The Jews were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on him in order to have an excuse to put him to death, so I wouldn't count on the Jews to tell the truth where Jesus was concerned. They brought in false witnesses to testify against him.
He was claiming that Yahweh was his Father, because it was the truth, but they were not interested in that, just in getting rid of him in any way they could.

 

[Brakelite]

According to the trinity doctrine, all are co-equal and co-eternal.

I will stop you right there, and will read no further. I am not claiming to be an advocate of the trinity doctrine that you describe above.

 

[Brakelite]

The Jews were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on him in order to have en excuse to put him to death, so I wouldn't count on the Jews to tell the truth where Jesus was concerned. They brought in false witnesses to testify against him.
He was claiming that Yahweh was his Father, because it was the truth, but they were not interested in that, just in getting rid of him in any way they could.

And yet you agree with the Jews that Jesus was 'just a man'.

they knew exactly who he was.....Michael the Archangel

So can you prove from scripture that an archangel is a created being, and not simply as described by the word itself... Head... Or Lord... Of the angels? Or as scripture elsewhere names... Lord of hosts. And yes, Jesus was certainly a Messenger... In the OT He was the Angel (Messenger) of the covenant. Nowhere does that necessarily mean created being.

 

[Johann]

@Wrangler
"Some who say that they accept Jesus’ teachings view him as God’s Son, not as the Creator himself. Others believe in “the divinity of Christ” and think that he is actually God. They hold that Jesus always existed and was more than a human when he was here on the earth. Are they right about this? What do the Scriptures say?

Jesus testified that he had a prehuman existence. He said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13) Jesus also stated: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”—John 6:51.

Just before his death, Jesus prayed: “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”—John 17:5.

The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. . . .how could it could have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5.

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

Those saying that Jesus was a God-man use various scriptures in an effort to prove that he is a member of Christendom’s Trinity, equal with God in essence, power, glory, and duration. But when we examine these texts carefully, we find that those arguing for “the divinity of Christ” view these verses as saying more than they really do.

....what did Jesus mean when he told his followers to baptize disciples “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit”? (Matthew 28:19, 20) Jesus did not mean or say that he, his Father, and the holy spirit were coequal. Rather, those baptized recognize Jehovah as the Life-Giver and Almighty God, to whom they dedicate their life. They accept Jesus as the Messiah and the one through whom God provided a ransom for believing mankind. And they realize that the holy spirit is God’s active force, to which they must submit.

Those who claim that God took on human existence as a God-man should note that the Bible does not even hint that Jesus viewed himself in such a way. Rather, it consistently shows that Jesus has always been inferior to his Father. When on the earth, Jesus never claimed to be more than "the Son of God". Moreover, Christ said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.

Paul made a distinction between Jehovah and Jesus in saying: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6) Paul also said: “You belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.” (1 Corinthians 3:23)"
(excerpts from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1992044?q=divinity&p=par)

So was Jesus divine i.e. of a divine origin, or with divine authority? Or was Jesus deity, i.e. part God and part man?

Understanding the word "theos" in Greek answers that question....."theos" is translated "god" because this term applied to all those considered divine, or of divine origin, or with divine authority.

The word applied to the true God....to false gods....to satan....and even to the human Judges in Israel. It does not always mean the one singular God of Israel (Deuteronomy 6:4)...the Almighty Creator. There was no word for him in the Greek language because at that time, he was nameless. All the Greek gods had individual names, but Yahweh's name, according to a Jewish superstition, could not be uttered.

So, if the divine name had still been in use, John 1:1 the most widely used verse to promote the deity of Christ, would have read....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine."
And there would never have been this confusion. (John 17:3)

God's name was divine because it had the Creator himself as its origin. Jesus was divine because he too had the father as his Creator.....but nowhere is Jesus ever called a deity.

So Jesus was divine....but he was not God. He did not accept worship but said all worship was to go to his God and Father. (Luke 4:5-8) Quoting Deuteronomy 6:14 Jesus said "It is written ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

An error on your part..

https://download1.thirdmill.org/en/750main64b/TheApostlesCreed.Forum3.English.mp4

Jesus Christ Is God the Lord (HTML)

Christ is God YHVH.


1) I am the bread of life, Joh_6:35
2) I am the light of the world, Joh_8:12; Joh_9:5.
3) I am the door, Joh_10:7.
4) I am the good shepherd, Joh_10:11; Joh_10:14.
5) I am the resurrection and the life, Joh_11:25.
6) I am the way, the truth, and the life, Joh_14:6.
7) I am the true vine, Joh_15:1.
8) And I and my Father are one, Joh_10:30; Joh_14:9.

The "I am" is none other than the Ehyeh asher Ehyeh...God/Elohim


In the beginning (en archēi). Archē is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew be reshith in Gen_1:1. But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity. There is no argument here to prove the existence of God any more than in Genesis. It is simply assumed. Either God exists and is the Creator of the universe as scientists like Eddington and Jeans assume or matter is eternal or it has come out of nothing.
Was (ēn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in Joh_1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Joh_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence).


With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1Jn_2:1 we have a like use of pros: “We have a Paraclete with the Father” (paraklēton echomen pros ton patera). See prosōpon pros prosōpon (face to face, 1Co_13:12), a triple use of pros.

There is a papyrus example of pros in this sense to gnōston tēs pros allēlous sunētheias, “the knowledge of our intimacy with one another” (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pros here and in Mar_6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koiné, not old Attic. In Joh_17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom.

The way you view Christ will affect your doctrine.

Blessings
J.

 

[Johann]

e

Christ Jesus IS God and YHVH/Memra/Alef and the Tav/Ehyeh asher EHyeh...

Jesus Christ Is God the Lord (HTML)

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB

Blessings
J.

 

[Johann]

@Wrangler
"Some who say that they accept Jesus’ teachings view him as God’s Son, not as the Creator himself. Others believe in “the divinity of Christ” and think that he is actually God. They hold that Jesus always existed and was more than a human when he was here on the earth. Are they right about this? What do the Scriptures say?

Jesus testified that he had a prehuman existence. He said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13) Jesus also stated: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”—John 6:51.

Just before his death, Jesus prayed: “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”—John 17:5.

The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. . . .how could it could have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5.

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

Those saying that Jesus was a God-man use various scriptures in an effort to prove that he is a member of Christendom’s Trinity, equal with God in essence, power, glory, and duration. But when we examine these texts carefully, we find that those arguing for “the divinity of Christ” view these verses as saying more than they really do.

....what did Jesus mean when he told his followers to baptize disciples “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit”? (Matthew 28:19, 20) Jesus did not mean or say that he, his Father, and the holy spirit were coequal. Rather, those baptized recognize Jehovah as the Life-Giver and Almighty God, to whom they dedicate their life. They accept Jesus as the Messiah and the one through whom God provided a ransom for believing mankind. And they realize that the holy spirit is God’s active force, to which they must submit.

Those who claim that God took on human existence as a God-man should note that the Bible does not even hint that Jesus viewed himself in such a way. Rather, it consistently shows that Jesus has always been inferior to his Father. When on the earth, Jesus never claimed to be more than "the Son of God". Moreover, Christ said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.

Paul made a distinction between Jehovah and Jesus in saying: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6) Paul also said: “You belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.” (1 Corinthians 3:23)"
(excerpts from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1992044?q=divinity&p=par)

So was Jesus divine i.e. of a divine origin, or with divine authority? Or was Jesus deity, i.e. part God and part man?

Understanding the word "theos" in Greek answers that question....."theos" is translated "god" because this term applied to all those considered divine, or of divine origin, or with divine authority.

The word applied to the true God....to false gods....to satan....and even to the human Judges in Israel. It does not always mean the one singular God of Israel (Deuteronomy 6:4)...the Almighty Creator. There was no word for him in the Greek language because at that time, he was nameless. All the Greek gods had individual names, but Yahweh's name, according to a Jewish superstition, could not be uttered.

So, if the divine name had still been in use, John 1:1 the most widely used verse to promote the deity of Christ, would have read....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine."
And there would never have been this confusion. (John 17:3)

God's name was divine because it had the Creator himself as its origin. Jesus was divine because he too had the father as his Creator.....but nowhere is Jesus ever called a deity.

So Jesus was divine....but he was not God. He did not accept worship but said all worship was to go to his God and Father. (Luke 4:5-8) Quoting Deuteronomy 6:14 Jesus said "It is written ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

Incorrect

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• 369 more topics on Christ
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  Hopefully this will steer you in the right direction
  Blessings
  J.

 

[Johann]

I acknowledge that Jesus is "divine" but he is just not "God Almighty. Divinity is not necessarily deity.
He is of divine origin and has divine authority, but he is not Yahweh.
The Greek "theos" (god) can be used to describe anything that can be worshipped.
Jesus was never worshipped because he was human. The magi e.g. did not render "worship" to a god, but rather obeisance to a new King.

When honor is paid to a human it is "obeisance" but when directed to God it is "worship". (pro·sky·neʹo)

Jesus is eternal ("In the beginning was the Word," John 1:1)
Jesus the Son is distinct from God the Father ("the Word was with God," John 1:1, 2)
Jesus is God ("the Word was God," John 1:1)
Jesus is the Creator ("All things were made through him," John 1:3, 9)
Jesus is the giver of life ("In him was life," John 1:4)
Jesus is the ultimate value and guide ("the life was the light of men," John 1:4-5)
Jesus has a name ("in his name," John 1:12)
Jesus became incarnate ("the Word became flesh," John 1:14)
Jesus came to live upon the earth ("and dwelt among us," John 1:14)
And Jesus is the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth (John 1:14)



So, John's Logos is personal. He is God, the Creator, the giver of life, the ultimate value and guide, the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth, who came to live upon this very earth. In the fullness of time, Jesus died, but he resurrected up from the dead to the right hand of God the Father and rules over his kingdom. At the consummation of all things, he will personally come again and take his children to their eternal home.

God is not just a concept. He is a personal Being. Do you know him?
Blessings
J.

“The more of Scripture, yes, of the very words of Scripture that we can use in preaching, the better and, certainly, the more of such thing as can
begin with, ‘Thus says the Lord.’”—Volume 54, Sermon #3094

 

[JohnPaul]

Christ Jesus IS God and YHVH/Memra/Alef and the Tav/Ehyeh asher EHyeh...

Jesus Christ Is God the Lord (HTML)

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB

Blessings
J.

When did Christ ever refer to himself as God?

 

[Johann]

When did Christ ever refer to himself as God?

Did Jesus say He is God? | GotQuestions.org

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB

Perhaps this will cause you to reconsider..

https://download1.thirdmill.org/en/750main64b/TheApostlesCreed.Forum3.English.mp4


Isa_9:6 (5) For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).
Isa_28:29 This also cometh forth from Hashem Tzva'os, Who is wonderful in etzah, and excellent in wisdom.
OJB

Is Christ a mere man to you? Not equal with the Father but "lesser?"
Blessings
J.
Listen to the sources before you reply.

 

[JohnPaul]

Did Jesus say He is God? | GotQuestions.org

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB

Perhaps this will cause you to reconsider..

https://download1.thirdmill.org/en/750main64b/TheApostlesCreed.Forum3.English.mp4


Isa_9:6 (5) For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).
Isa_28:29 This also cometh forth from Hashem Tzva'os, Who is wonderful in etzah, and excellent in wisdom.
OJB

Is Christ a mere man to you? Not equal with the Father but "lesser?"
Blessings
J.
Listen to the sources before you reply.

I only speak English.

 

[Johann]

I only speak English.

Listen to the links I have given you
Blessings
J.

 

[Brakelite]

@Aunty Jane
So theos can mean anything you like depending on your preconceived opinions, and so can worship. Chop and change to suit whatever situation you happen to referencing.
KJV Philippians 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Yet the word worship in the above text is λατρεύω‭ latreuo, and the word God is ‭θεός‭ theos, which according to you can mean anything. What is it this time in your opinion? Astarte? Moloch? Fred Dagg?

 

[soul man]

@Wrangler
"Some who say that they accept Jesus’ teachings view him as God’s Son, not as the Creator himself. Others believe in “the divinity of Christ” and think that he is actually God. They hold that Jesus always existed and was more than a human when he was here on the earth. Are they right about this? What do the Scriptures say?

Jesus testified that he had a prehuman existence. He said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13) Jesus also stated: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”—John 6:51.

Just before his death, Jesus prayed: “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”—John 17:5.

The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. . . .how could it could have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5.

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

Those saying that Jesus was a God-man use various scriptures in an effort to prove that he is a member of Christendom’s Trinity, equal with God in essence, power, glory, and duration. But when we examine these texts carefully, we find that those arguing for “the divinity of Christ” view these verses as saying more than they really do.

....what did Jesus mean when he told his followers to baptize disciples “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit”? (Matthew 28:19, 20) Jesus did not mean or say that he, his Father, and the holy spirit were coequal. Rather, those baptized recognize Jehovah as the Life-Giver and Almighty God, to whom they dedicate their life. They accept Jesus as the Messiah and the one through whom God provided a ransom for believing mankind. And they realize that the holy spirit is God’s active force, to which they must submit.

Those who claim that God took on human existence as a God-man should note that the Bible does not even hint that Jesus viewed himself in such a way. Rather, it consistently shows that Jesus has always been inferior to his Father. When on the earth, Jesus never claimed to be more than "the Son of God". Moreover, Christ said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.

Paul made a distinction between Jehovah and Jesus in saying: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6) Paul also said: “You belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.” (1 Corinthians 3:23)"
(excerpts from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1992044?q=divinity&p=par)

So was Jesus divine i.e. of a divine origin, or with divine authority? Or was Jesus deity, i.e. part God and part man?

Understanding the word "theos" in Greek answers that question....."theos" is translated "god" because this term applied to all those considered divine, or of divine origin, or with divine authority.

The word applied to the true God....to false gods....to satan....and even to the human Judges in Israel. It does not always mean the one singular God of Israel (Deuteronomy 6:4)...the Almighty Creator. There was no word for him in the Greek language because at that time, he was nameless. All the Greek gods had individual names, but Yahweh's name, according to a Jewish superstition, could not be uttered.

So, if the divine name had still been in use, John 1:1 the most widely used verse to promote the deity of Christ, would have read....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine."
And there would never have been this confusion. (John 17:3)

God's name was divine because it had the Creator himself as its origin. Jesus was divine because he too had the father as his Creator.....but nowhere is Jesus ever called a deity.

So Jesus was divine....but he was not God. He did not accept worship but said all worship was to go to his God and Father. (Luke 4:5-8) Quoting Deuteronomy 6:14 Jesus said "It is written ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

I'm curious.. to who ever could answer. Is this the Jehovah Witness doctrine? I don't know many doctrines.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I will stop you right there, and will read no further. I am not claiming to be an advocate of the trinity doctrine that you describe above.

if you believe that Jesus is equal to Yahweh, you have still put another God (not “god”) in the Father’s place. There is only one “ho theos”....other divine or god-like beings do not have the definite article and are hence “a god” not “the God”.

@Aunty Jane
So theos can mean anything you like depending on your preconceived opinions, and so can worship. Chop and change to suit whatever situation you happen to referencing.
KJV Philippians 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Yet the word worship in the above text is λατρεύω‭ latreuo, and the word God is ‭θεός‭ theos, which according to you can mean anything. What is it this time in your opinion? Astarte? Moloch? Fred Dagg?

Really mate? Fred Dagg? Is it that hard to understand that Jesus was created and that in no way demeans him because he never once claimed any equality with his God and Father. Even in heaven the Father is still the God of Jesus. Revelation 3:12, (written at the end of the first century) has Jesus making promises in connection with his "God"....how does that in any way = equality?

Philippians 3:3 from the Mounce Interlinear....
“For we are the true circumcision, who worship (la·treuʹo) by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh”.

Acts 7:7 also uses the Greek verb la·treuʹo which basically denotes serving, but in some contexts may be rendered “to worship.” In Scriptural usage, "la·treuʹo" generally refers to serving God or to service connected with the worship of God. (Matthew 4:10; Luke 1:74; Romans 1:9) It includes service at the sanctuary or temple. (Hebrews 8:5; 9:9; 10:2; 13:10)
In a few cases, it refers to false worship—rendering service to, or worshipping, created things. (Acts 7:42; Romans 1:25)

I really believe it would help a lot of folks to get rid of that dinosaur of a Bible they keep referring to.....the KJV is one of the worst Bibles for study.
Out of all the translations on Biblegateway only 11 render la·treuʹo as "service", rather than "worship".

Details matter when the truth can be twisted every which way....but one thing is certain...there can only be ONE truth, not many versions of it.

And yet you agree with the Jews that Jesus was 'just a man'.

Where do you see this in my responses? Jesus was most certainly human in every respect or he could not have redeemed the human race with his sinless life. You have to understand what the laws of redemption were, and how Jesus had to be the "ransom" paid. A ransom is the sum demanded to release captives.
"Atonement" is "at-one-ment"...one for one. If you have no understanding of those things, you will be led off in the wrong direction.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So can you prove from scripture that an archangel is a created being, and not simply as described by the word itself... Head... Or Lord... Of the angels? Or as scripture elsewhere names... Lord of hosts. And yes, Jesus was certainly a Messenger... In the OT He was the Angel (Messenger) of the covenant. Nowhere does that necessarily mean created being.

I fail to understand why people are so touchy about Jesus being "created" as if that somehow devalues him.
Revelation 3:14...even in your KJV says..."....These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".

Please tell me what prevents Jesus from being created? John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God"....since God is eternal and had no "beginning", this too is indicating that the pre-human Jesus was "with" his God and Father as his first creation. "Only begotten" (monogenes) means an only child. He was "begotten" long before his human birth

Since the Son is second in command to his Father, the angels are under the authority of both. Michael is Commander of the angels and so is Jesus, since there is only one Archangel who is commander of the angelic forces and he is called "the Prince of God's people", (Daniel 12:1) we believe that Michael was the pre-human Jesus. The only thing that fights with this is the notion that Jesus is God. If Jesus is God then he can't be created and he can't be Michael.....and yet the scriptures indicate that he is. I must stress however, that this is not "doctrine" for us but a solidly based belief.....there is no direct statement, so because we are not hindered by a trinity, the Bible indicates that Jesus is "the firstborn of God's creation". (Colossians 1:15) So we have no barrier to that belief.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm curious.. to who ever could answer. Is this the Jehovah Witness doctrine? I don't know many doctrines.

Yes.....and it is backed up by the scriptures as you can see......is it very different to what Christendom teaches? YES!...and that is because Christendom inherited its doctrines from an apostate church many centuries ago. It has been indoctrinated into them for so long, that the truth seems like a lie...and the lie seems like the truth.....but who sowed those seeds of apostasy? Jesus forewarned that the devil would sow seeds of counterfeit Christianity, corrupting it in the same way as Judaism was corrupted in his day. (Matthew 13:24-30: 36-43)

Was Jesus sent to the religious leaders, or was he sent to the "lost sheep" whom those negligent "shepherds" treated like dirt?
What did Jesus say to the Pharisees?
Matthew 23:13, 15....
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves."

There was nothing Jesus could say or do that would conquer that evil corruption, so he told them the truth about what they taught, and it made them hate him.....enough to want him killed.

"Gehenna" to Jews was not "hellfire", but a place from which they would never be resurrected....it was a symbol of eternal death, which is the opposite of eternal life...think about it....that is all God ever offered his people...not "heaven or hell", but "life or death". (Deuteronomy 30:19) There is no such place as Christendom's "hell".

Jesus told his disciples that they could expect the same treatment as he suffered....
John 15:18-21...
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me."

Those who think they know God, must think again...in a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it seems. (1 John 5:19)

This is the world we live in right now, under satan's control.....in these "last days" we could expect people to exhibit the following traits.....
"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away."

Being "no part of the world" means not adopting its ways or standards. It means not meddling in its dirty politics.....not promoting its greedy commercialism and not being part of its corrupt religions who are doing all of that.

Are you celebrating Easter right now? That is a pagan celebration and the churches promote it by even using the name, which is not found in the Bible at all. "Easter" is the name of a pagan fertility goddess whose emblems were rabbits and eggs. Do the churches expose this disgusting underbelly? (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) Or do they view it (along with Christmas) as one of the two occasions in the year where they make the most money? These 'celebrations' have no place in Christianity and are nothing but a 'cash cow' for the commercial system as well as for Christendom's churches. This sacred "cow" isn't going anywhere...because it is convenient to retain these things for unscriptural reasons.

The Bible is an open book to those without closed minds.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

An error on your part..

Christ is God YHVH.

Nowhere does Christ ever say that he is YHWH....NOT ONCE.

1) I am the bread of life, Joh_6:35
2) I am the light of the world, Joh_8:12; Joh_9:5.
3) I am the door, Joh_10:7.
4) I am the good shepherd, Joh_10:11; Joh_10:14.
5) I am the resurrection and the life, Joh_11:25.
6) I am the way, the truth, and the life, Joh_14:6.
7) I am the true vine, Joh_15:1.
8) And I and my Father are one, Joh_10:30; Joh_14:9.

The "I am" is none other than the Ehyeh asher Ehyeh...God/Elohim

I am left to wonder if Yahweh or Jesus could ever just say "I am...something or another", without saying that they were God.

Let me quote Exodus 3:13-15 from the Jewish Tanakh...
"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God [יְהֹוָ֞ה] of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:"
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9864

How is God's name rendered there...? "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)"'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you."
This name is more than simply a declaration of his existence because the Jews, though held in slavery in Egypt, already knew that their God was Yahweh. This name, to be given to the Israelites, had deeper meaning.....it is the causative form, the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wahʹ (to be or become); meaning “He Causes to Be” or "to become". This was not a statement of his 'existing' but of his "becoming" whatever he needed to be in order for his will in connection with this nation to come to its successful conclusion.

What about all the other people who said "I am"? Were they claiming to be God too? It is a common expression that many seem to jump on as if it only means one thing.....if God's name never was "I AM" then the whole argument falls in a heap.

In the beginning (en archēi). Archē is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew be reshith in Gen_1:1. But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity. There is no argument here to prove the existence of God any more than in Genesis. It is simply assumed. Either God exists and is the Creator of the universe as scientists like Eddington and Jeans assume or matter is eternal or it has come out of nothing.
Was (ēn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in Joh_1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Joh_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence).

John 8:58 has no connection to Exodus 3:14-15 in any way.
Jesus was answering a question about his age, and in answering that question he said....
“The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!” (TLB)
This is the only translation that has an accurate rendering of that statement....

I am no Greek scholar, but in Bible study, you look not only at the context but also at other scriptures to see how the word is used in different settings. Biblegateway is good for this comparison with other translations. Strongs Concordance is also a good reference work. So I always check to see if what I am reading is based on assumptions, or if I am relying on the actual scriptural evidence to furnish my conclusions....this would include the Bible as a whole, since scripture will explain scripture.

With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1Jn_2:1 we have a like use of pros: “We have a Paraclete with the Father” (paraklēton echomen pros ton patera). See prosōpon pros prosōpon (face to face, 1Co_13:12), a triple use of pros.

Triple use of "pros" eh? In this context, the Greek preposition pros does imply close proximity and fellowship.....but that does not mean that God and his Christ are the same God. They can be "familial" like a Father and son without both being the same God. Implication is not a sound basis for a fact, nor is suggestion or supposition. Christendom only has those things....there is no clear statement as to Yahweh and his Christ being in a "godhead" with the holy spirit"......not a single one.

All it says in John 1:1 is... "in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god." In Greek there is no upper and lower case nor any punctuation. This makes translating into English a bit of a nightmare because capitals and punctuation can change the whole meaning of a verse.
Reading it in Greek however reveals something that trinitarians do not like to acknowledge....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

There are two "gods" in this verse and only one of them is Yahweh. "Theos" is a word used in Greek for anything that is worshipped, or has divine origin, or is divinely authorized. Since "worship" is only ever given to God (ho theos), who is a spirit, no human can be "worshipped". The Word is only referred to as "theos" without the definite article. So the word is "theos" as in "of divine origin and divinely authorized" but he is NOT "ho theos" (THE God) Yahweh.

In Greek "pro·sky·neʹo" is used for both "worship" when it pertains to God, and "obeisance" when it is given to others. Jesus did not accept worship because he was a man. He did accept obeisance however because he was "the son of God".

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is a papyrus example of pros in this sense to gnōston tēs pros allēlous sunētheias, “the knowledge of our intimacy with one another” (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pros here and in Mar_6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koiné, not old Attic. In Joh_17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom.

The way you view Christ will affect your doctrine.

Indeed....the way you view Christ determines whether you are committing blasphemy by placing the son and the holy spirit on the same level of authority as God the Father. If Jesus is not God, and all of Christendom has been persuaded to believe this lie.....what will become of them.....?
Matthew 7:13-14; 21-23....
“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it". . .
Since those who are on the cramped and narrow road are "few"...its not the majority that will be saved, but a "few" enlightened members of a minority. At the "harvest time", the "wheat" and the "weeds" do not resemble one another at all. So look for the differences, not the similarities....God only sees "true" Christians and "false" ones. He doesn't read labels.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’"

Who will be on the receiving end of this judgment? Those who thought that their Christianity was sound.....and yet Jesus' response is that he has "never" known them. "NEVER" means "NOT EVER". So who is Jesus rejecting? Who is breaking God's law by putting other "gods" in his place? (Exodus 20:3)

Isa_9:6 (5) For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).
Isa_28:29 This also cometh forth from Hashem Tzva'os, Who is wonderful in etzah, and excellent in wisdom.
OJB

And what Jew in their right mind would ever have accepted that a mere man was God incarnate? Jesus was born as human child. The people knew his parents and his siblings....for all intents and purposes, he was just the son of the carpenter, Joseph. There was nothing very extraordinary about his birth or his growing up...in fact the Bible says little about any of it. His Messiahship began in 29CE when he presented himself to John to be baptized and to begin his ministry.....only then was the holy spirit empowering him to perform miracles.

You notice that all the titles given to this promised Messiah were seen in Jesus, who was all of those things...even a "Mighty God" (EL Gibbor) but he was not El Shaddai (Almighty God) and his being an "everlasting father" was also true as he was the giver of everlasting life to those who obeyed his teachings.....all of which he said had come from his Father. (John 7:15-16)

You base all your conclusions on assumptions that were made long after the Bible was written....the scriptures were all from Jewish writers who would never have accepted that Jesus was God in the flesh.....he didn't need to be God to pay the ransom....all he needed to be was "sinless".