Divinity Verses Deity of Jesus Christ.

[Brakelite]

if you believe that Jesus is equal to Yahweh, you have still put another God (not “god”) in the Father’s place.

Who do you think I am that you believe I can put the Son anywhere? It was the Father who sent His only begotten Son in His place. To represent the Father and die. It was the Father who gave His Son all things, one of those things being equality in authority (all authority...KJV John 5:26-30 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
I am not doing what you believe I am doing. I am not claiming equality in rank. But everything the Father has in manner of life, power, authority, holiness, title, the Son has received by inheritance... Because He is His Father's Son. That makes the Son equal. It isn't me making Him anything.

There is only one “ho theos”....other divine or god-like beings do not have the definite article and are hence “a god” not “the God”.

Tell that to the Father... He said otherwise .... God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
What is that more excellent name???
KJV Hebrews 1:6, 8
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Even in heaven the Father is still the God of Jesus. (Revelation 3:12, written at the end of the first century) has Jesus making promises in connection with his "God"....how does that in any way = equality?

I have no issue with the Father being the God of Jesus. I do have an issue when you respond without reading what I'm actually saying. In Hebrews 1 the Father is presenting the Son before the whole angelic host, and explaining the Son's true identity. Previous to this they knew the Son as their commander and Lord. The Son was content with His position. The time had come for His true relation to the Father to be revealed. Not a created being, but the beginning, that instigator of all creation, including the angels and the universe. It is assumption on the part of Arians such as yourself to designate the Son as created. We are not told in scripture How the Son was brought forth. We are not informed of the details of His beginnings, but what we are told is that yes, as you quoted, He was the beginning of the creation of all things.
KJV 1 Corinthians 8:6 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Christ is the literal Son of God. A Son having the same nature, and therefore God. Inherited yes, but worthy of worship in the highest sense. You think it not demeaning to think the Son was created? You deny His Sonship. If that isn't demeaning, nothing is.

 

[Enoch111]

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah?

Because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all in the Trinity, and when Jesus was on earth, He chose to be completely submitted to the Father. That did not change the fact that He is God, since the Father has authority over the Son, yet calls the Son "God".

 

[Aunty Jane]

It was the Father who sent His only begotten Son in His place. To represent the Father and die. It was the Father who gave His Son all things, one of those things being equality in authority

What am I missing here Backlit?
I think we each have a totally different definition of the word "God"...
From the Greek perspective, a language that was the common tongue of the day, the word used for "GOD" is "theos" Correct?
What did this word mean in Greek?
According to Strongs, it means..."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities."
"Deities OR divinities" doesn't mean that Jesus is, or ever was "God" or even his equal.
Yahweh is "deity"...Christ is "divinity".....one does not necessarily mean the other.
The word in the NT was the same even if it was the devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4)

(all authority...KJV John 5:26-30 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
I am not doing what you believe I am doing. I am not claiming equality in rank. But everything the Father has in manner of life, power, authority, holiness, title, the Son has received by inheritance... Because He is His Father's Son. That makes the Son equal. It isn't me making Him anything.

I still cannot understand how that makes Jesus into God? If Jesus needed to receive all those things from his Father....if he was God, he would already have them. If they were not his to begin with then he isn't God. How is that not a "blind Freddy" thing?

Tell that to the Father... He said otherwise .... God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
What is that more excellent name???

Are you reading the same words that I am reading?
God has "appointed him heir".....an inheritance is something that is given to a person by one who passes it on to to their next of kin. Does the inheritor then become the same person as the one giving it?

If Jesus was God how would he be "given" something that God already possesses?
How is sitting at God's right hand an indication of deity? As the son of God that is his rightful place...the place he has always occupied.
John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word and the Word was WITH GOD".....he was a divinely created being who was always at his Father's side.
He also had divine authority because God gave him that as well. Jesus had nothing that he did not receive. He is not God.

KJV Hebrews 1:6, 8
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The angels do not "worship" Jesus because "worship" belongs only to God, as Jesus said. (Luke 4:5-8) "Obeisance" is the same word, but applied to those who are not God. Angels do obeisance to Jesus but render worship only to God.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

That dinosaur strikes again.... ...biased translation is responsible for many errors in understanding.....
Please note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, the very next verse (Hebrews 1:9) reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

I have no issue with the Father being the God of Jesus. I do have an issue when you respond without reading what I'm actually saying. In Hebrews 1 the Father is presenting the Son before the whole angelic host, and explaining the Son's true identity. Previous to this they knew the Son as their commander and Lord. The Son was content with His position. The time had come for His true relation to the Father to be revealed.

Sorry, but I do not see any such thing. If the angels did not know who Jesus was, who else could? He has been their Commander since their creation, and which he played a vital role in producing. Even the demons knew who he was....and they identified him as "the son of God". (Luke 4:41; Matthew 8:29)

Not a created being, but the beginning, that instigator of all creation, including the angels and the universe. It is assumption on the part of Arians such as yourself to designate the Son as created. We are not told in scripture How the Son was brought forth. We are not informed of the details of His beginnings, but what we are told is that yes, as you quoted, He was the beginning of the creation of all things.
KJV 1 Corinthians 8:6 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Christ is the literal Son of God. A Son having the same nature, and therefore God. Inherited yes, but worthy of worship in the highest sense. You think it not demeaning to think the Son was created? You deny His Sonship. If that isn't demeaning, nothing is.

Here again you are making assumptions that the son must be God, even though the scriptures say that he had a beginning. Revelation 3:14 does not say that Jesus was the "beginner" of God's creation but the "beginning"...the very first thing created by God before anything or anyone else. The immortal and eternal God had no beginning, but the son did.
I acknowledge Jesus' "sonship" without giving him what belongs only to his Father....who is also his God. How can God have a God whom he worships and serves? Its just silly. The Bible says what it says....not what is implied.....and apparently that is all you have.

You can believe whatever you wish....but all will stand before the same judge who will accept no excuses for ignorance. (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Johann]

You notice that all the titles given to this promised Messiah were seen in Jesus, who was all of those things...even a "Mighty God" (EL Gibbor) but he was not El Shaddai (Almighty God)

...@Aunty Jane..an error on your part...Jesus was God but not Almighty God...inferior to the Father?

Joh 1:1

BESURAS HAGEULAH
ACCORDING TO
YOCHANAN

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with)pros to pros...God with God Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB

בְּרֵאשִׁית הָיָה הַדָּבָר וְהַדָּבָר הָיָה אֶת־הָאֱלֹהִים וְהוּא הַדָּבָר הָיָה אֱלֹהִים׃


1) I am the bread of life, Joh_6:35
2) I am the light of the world, Joh_8:12; Joh_9:5.
3) I am the door, Joh_10:7.
4) I am the good shepherd, Joh_10:11; Joh_10:14.
5) I am the resurrection and the life, Joh_11:25.
6) I am the way, the truth, and the life, Joh_14:6.
7) I am the true vine, Joh_15:1.
8) And I and my Father are one, Joh_10:30; Joh_14:9.

The Word was as truly God as the Father was God, and as the Spirit was God:” these three are one,” and ever have been one. “Very God of very God” is that Jesus whom we trust, and love, and adore.

Exo_3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Eh-heh-yeh ashair Ehheh- yeh...

The Platonists and Pythagoreans seem to have borrowed their το ον from hence, which expresses with them the eternal and invariable Being; and so the Septuagint version here is ο ων: it is said (z), that the temple of Minerva at Sais, a city of Egypt, had this inscription on it,"I am all that exists, is, and shall be.''And on the temple of Apollo at Delphos was written ει, the contraction of ειμι, "I am" (a). Our Lord seems to refer to this name, Joh_8:58, and indeed is the person that now appeared; and the words may be rendered, "I shall be what I shall be" (b) the incarnate God, God manifest in the flesh:


Verily: Joh_8:34, Joh_8:51
Before: Joh_1:1-2, Joh_17:5, Joh_17:24; Pro_8:22-30; Isa_9:6; Mic_5:2; Col_1:17; Heb_1:10-12; Heb_13:8; Rev_1:11, Rev_1:17-18, Rev_2:8
I am: That our Lord by this expression asserted his divinity and eternal existence, as the great I AM, appears evident from the use of the present tense, instead of the past tense, from its being in answer to the Jews, who enquired whether he had seen Abraham, and from its being thus understood by the multitude, who were exasperated at it to such a degree that they took up stones to stone him. The ancient Jews not only believed that the Messiah was superior to and Lord of all the patriarchs, and even of angels, but that his celestial nature existed with God from whom it emanated, before the creation, and that the creation was effected by his ministry. Exo_3:14; Isa_43:13, Isa_44:6, Isa_44:8, Isa_46:9, Isa_48:12; Rev_1:8

Jesus IS YHVH
Blessings
J.

 

[soul man]

Yes.....and it is backed up by the scriptures as you can see......is it very different to what Christendom teaches? YES!...and that is because Christendom inherited its doctrines from an apostate church many centuries ago. It has been indoctrinated into them for so long, that the truth seems like a lie...and the lie seems like the truth.....but who sowed those seeds of apostasy? Jesus forewarned that the devil would sow seeds of counterfeit Christianity, corrupting it in the same way as Judaism was corrupted in his day. (Matthew 13:24-30: 36-43)

Was Jesus sent to the religious leaders, or was he sent to the "lost sheep" whom those negligent "shepherds" treated like dirt?
What did Jesus say to the Pharisees?
Matthew 23:13, 15....
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves."

There was nothing Jesus could say or do that would conquer that evil corruption, so he told them the truth about what they taught, and it made them hate him.....enough to want him killed.

"Gehenna" to Jews was not "hellfire", but a place from which they would never be resurrected....it was a symbol of eternal death, which is the opposite of eternal life...think about it....that is all God ever offered his people...not "heaven or hell", but "life or death". (Deuteronomy 30:19) There is no such place as Christendom's "hell".

Jesus told his disciples that they could expect the same treatment as he suffered....
John 15:18-21...
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me."

Those who think they know God, must think again...in a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it seems. (1 John 5:19)

This is the world we live in right now, under satan's control.....in these "last days" we could expect people to exhibit the following traits.....
"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away."

Being "no part of the world" means not adopting its ways or standards. It means not meddling in its dirty politics.....not promoting its greedy commercialism and not being part of its corrupt religions who are doing all of that.

Are you celebrating Easter right now? That is a pagan celebration and the churches promote it by even using the name, which is not found in the Bible at all. "Easter" is the name of a pagan fertility goddess whose emblems were rabbits and eggs. Do the churches expose this disgusting underbelly? (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) Or do they view it (along with Christmas) as one of the two occasions in the year where they make the most money? These 'celebrations' have no place in Christianity and are nothing but a 'cash cow' for the commercial system as well as for Christendom's churches. This sacred "cow" isn't going anywhere...because it is convenient to retain these things for unscriptural reasons.

The Bible is an open book to those without closed minds.....

Ok thanks

 

[soul man]

@Wrangler
"Some who say that they accept Jesus’ teachings view him as God’s Son, not as the Creator himself. Others believe in “the divinity of Christ” and think that he is actually God. They hold that Jesus always existed and was more than a human when he was here on the earth. Are they right about this? What do the Scriptures say?

Jesus testified that he had a prehuman existence. He said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13) Jesus also stated: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”—John 6:51.

Just before his death, Jesus prayed: “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”—John 17:5.

The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. . . .how could it could have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5.

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

Those saying that Jesus was a God-man use various scriptures in an effort to prove that he is a member of Christendom’s Trinity, equal with God in essence, power, glory, and duration. But when we examine these texts carefully, we find that those arguing for “the divinity of Christ” view these verses as saying more than they really do.

....what did Jesus mean when he told his followers to baptize disciples “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit”? (Matthew 28:19, 20) Jesus did not mean or say that he, his Father, and the holy spirit were coequal. Rather, those baptized recognize Jehovah as the Life-Giver and Almighty God, to whom they dedicate their life. They accept Jesus as the Messiah and the one through whom God provided a ransom for believing mankind. And they realize that the holy spirit is God’s active force, to which they must submit.

Those who claim that God took on human existence as a God-man should note that the Bible does not even hint that Jesus viewed himself in such a way. Rather, it consistently shows that Jesus has always been inferior to his Father. When on the earth, Jesus never claimed to be more than "the Son of God". Moreover, Christ said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.

Paul made a distinction between Jehovah and Jesus in saying: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6) Paul also said: “You belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.” (1 Corinthians 3:23)"
(excerpts from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1992044?q=divinity&p=par)

So was Jesus divine i.e. of a divine origin, or with divine authority? Or was Jesus deity, i.e. part God and part man?

Understanding the word "theos" in Greek answers that question....."theos" is translated "god" because this term applied to all those considered divine, or of divine origin, or with divine authority.

The word applied to the true God....to false gods....to satan....and even to the human Judges in Israel. It does not always mean the one singular God of Israel (Deuteronomy 6:4)...the Almighty Creator. There was no word for him in the Greek language because at that time, he was nameless. All the Greek gods had individual names, but Yahweh's name, according to a Jewish superstition, could not be uttered.

So, if the divine name had still been in use, John 1:1 the most widely used verse to promote the deity of Christ, would have read....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine."
And there would never have been this confusion. (John 17:3)

God's name was divine because it had the Creator himself as its origin. Jesus was divine because he too had the father as his Creator.....but nowhere is Jesus ever called a deity.

So Jesus was divine....but he was not God. He did not accept worship but said all worship was to go to his God and Father. (Luke 4:5-8) Quoting Deuteronomy 6:14 Jesus said "It is written ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

I'm curious what you think we could call a day we would celebrate - the death burial and resurrection! If not easter we should call it what? We have Christmas, and Easter. What should we call them? Names are important you know.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm curious what you think we could call a day we would celebrate - the death burial and resurrection! If not easter we should call it what? We have Christmas, and Easter. What should we call them? Names are important you know.

In order to call them something, you first have to know what you are celebrating.....

There is no Easter or Christmas in the Bible for very good reasons...both are adopted from paganism.
We can thank the apostate Roman church for both. The church became corrupt as Jesus foretold. If you know anything about the history of the Israelites, they too strayed away from God’s pure worship to adopt practices and beliefs from pagan religions. God punished then sometimes very severely. He will not tolerate false worship dressed up to look like true worship.

Hopefully, you looked up 2 Corinthians 6:14-18...
“Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.” (ESV)

Do you see what Christians are told to do? We are to “separate” from those who try to fuse paganism with Christianity....because what they are doing is spiritually “unclean” in God’s eyes. If we want to be God’s “sons and daughters” we cannot be part of what God condemns.

Now look at the world and see how it’s all accepted, (even loved) especially by the churches and greedily supported by the commercial system.....not because they don’t know it’s pagan, (they do) but because they somehow think God doesn’t care, and it rewards them with more money than they can get through the rest of the year. Do they somehow think God can excuse them?

Do some research on the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter....don’t take my word for it.
Then ask yourself, based on 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 if you can in all conscience continue to celebrate them.

It’s not what you call them....it’s what you are really celebrating.
The Jews did not celebrate birthdays because of its connection with spiritism and astrology (something God’s Law forbade. Deuteronomy 18:9-12) The birthdate was used by astrologers to cast horoscopes and to predict the future. The birthday wishes were for good luck and the candles (originally tapers) on the birthday cake were to ward off evil spirits. Does this sound like something God would condone? All the customs are still there.

Since the Jews did not celebrate their birthdays, Jesus would not have celebrated his own birthday, let alone encourage others to do it. So for Christians, Christmas is a pagan fraud. All the customs are of pagan origin. Who is promoted at that time of year? And what is the dominant focus? The commercial system rejoices but not because they want to honour Christ...he is hardly mentioned. The customs associated with Christmas are ancient and not Christian at all.

I have outlined the origins of the Easter celebration which has adopted all manner of customs that are far from Christian. All Christ commanded was that we commemorate his death.....he never said to celebrate his resurrection, even though it was an amazing event. The chocolate rabbits and eggs are nothing to do with Jesus Christ, but are directly connected to a false goddess and pagan practices.

It isn’t about how WE feel about these things....it’s about how God feels about things that are spiritually “unclean” in his eyes. We can not justify these things to God, even if we can justify them to ourselves. Will we sacrifice these things for God? Or was Christ’s sacrifice for us in vain?

God is about truth, not lies dressed up to make them appear to be acceptable.

 

[Aunty Jane]

...@Aunty Jane..an error on your part...Jesus was God but not Almighty God...inferior to the Father?

Joh 1:1

BESURAS HAGEULAH
ACCORDING TO
YOCHANAN

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with)pros to pros...God with God Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB

בְּרֵאשִׁית הָיָה הַדָּבָר וְהַדָּבָר הָיָה אֶת־הָאֱלֹהִים וְהוּא הַדָּבָר הָיָה אֱלֹהִים׃


1) I am the bread of life, Joh_6:35
2) I am the light of the world, Joh_8:12; Joh_9:5.
3) I am the door, Joh_10:7.
4) I am the good shepherd, Joh_10:11; Joh_10:14.
5) I am the resurrection and the life, Joh_11:25.
6) I am the way, the truth, and the life, Joh_14:6.
7) I am the true vine, Joh_15:1.
8) And I and my Father are one, Joh_10:30; Joh_14:9.

The Word was as truly God as the Father was God, and as the Spirit was God:” these three are one,” and ever have been one. “Very God of very God” is that Jesus whom we trust, and love, and adore.

Exo_3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Eh-heh-yeh ashair Ehheh- yeh...

The Platonists and Pythagoreans seem to have borrowed their το ον from hence, which expresses with them the eternal and invariable Being; and so the Septuagint version here is ο ων: it is said (z), that the temple of Minerva at Sais, a city of Egypt, had this inscription on it,"I am all that exists, is, and shall be.''And on the temple of Apollo at Delphos was written ει, the contraction of ειμι, "I am" (a). Our Lord seems to refer to this name, Joh_8:58, and indeed is the person that now appeared; and the words may be rendered, "I shall be what I shall be" (b) the incarnate God, God manifest in the flesh:


Verily: Joh_8:34, Joh_8:51
Before: Joh_1:1-2, Joh_17:5, Joh_17:24; Pro_8:22-30; Isa_9:6; Mic_5:2; Col_1:17; Heb_1:10-12; Heb_13:8; Rev_1:11, Rev_1:17-18, Rev_2:8
I am: That our Lord by this expression asserted his divinity and eternal existence, as the great I AM, appears evident from the use of the present tense, instead of the past tense, from its being in answer to the Jews, who enquired whether he had seen Abraham, and from its being thus understood by the multitude, who were exasperated at it to such a degree that they took up stones to stone him. The ancient Jews not only believed that the Messiah was superior to and Lord of all the patriarchs, and even of angels, but that his celestial nature existed with God from whom it emanated, before the creation, and that the creation was effected by his ministry. Exo_3:14; Isa_43:13, Isa_44:6, Isa_44:8, Isa_46:9, Isa_48:12; Rev_1:8

Jesus IS YHVH
Blessings
J.

You are simply repeating what I have already addressed. Your beliefs are yours, but you will never justify them to me by repeating them. I have studied these things carefully and I am confident that I have found the truth...it may not be your truth, but it is mine after 50 years of study.

Jesus will be the arbiter of what we have chosen to believe.....he will not alter our choices because they are ours to make.....but he will let us know if we have not chosen well. We are all telling God, every day of our lives, who we really are by what we accept as truth.

 

[soul man]

In order to call them something, you first have to know what you are celebrating.....

There is no Easter or Christmas in the Bible for very good reasons...both are adopted from paganism.
We can thank the apostate Roman church for both. The church became corrupt as Jesus foretold. If you know anything about the history of the Israelites, they too strayed away from God’s pure worship to adopt practices and beliefs from pagan religions. God punished then sometimes very severely. He will not tolerate false worship dressed up to look like true worship.

Hopefully, you looked up 2 Corinthians 6:14-18...
“Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.” (ESV)

Do you see what Christians are told to do? We are to “separate” from those who try to fuse paganism with Christianity....because what they are doing is spiritually “unclean” in God’s eyes. If we want to be God’s “sons and daughters” we cannot be part of what God condemns.

Now look at the world and see how it’s all accepted, (even loved) especially by the churches and greedily supported by the commercial system.....not because they don’t know it’s pagan, (they do) but because they somehow think God doesn’t care, and it rewards them with more money than they can get through the rest of the year. Do they somehow think God can excuse them?

Do some research on the pagan origins of Christmas and Easter....don’t take my word for it.
Then ask yourself, based on 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 if you can in all conscience continue to celebrate them.

It’s not what you call them....it’s what you are really celebrating.
The Jews did not celebrate birthdays because of its connection with spiritism and astrology (something God’s Law forbade. Deuteronomy 18:9-12) The birthdate was used by astrologers to cast horoscopes and to predict the future. The birthday wishes were for good luck and the candles (originally tapers) on the birthday cake were to ward off evil spirits. Does this sound like something God would condone? All the customs are still there.

Since the Jews did not celebrate their birthdays, Jesus would not have celebrated his own birthday, let alone encourage others to do it. So for Christians, Christmas is a pagan fraud. All the customs are of pagan origin. Who is promoted at that time of year? And what is the dominant focus? The commercial system rejoices but not because they want to honour Christ...he is hardly mentioned. The customs associated with Christmas are ancient and not Christian at all.

I have outlined the origins of the Easter celebration which has adopted all manner of customs that are far from Christian. All Christ commanded was that we commemorate his death.....he never said to celebrate his resurrection, even though it was an amazing event. The chocolate rabbits and eggs are nothing to do with Jesus Christ, but are directly connected to a false goddess and pagan practices.

It isn’t about how WE feel about these things....it’s about how God feels about things that are spiritually “unclean” in his eyes. We can not justify these things to God, even if we can justify them to ourselves. Will we sacrifice these things for God? Or was Christ’s sacrifice for us in vain?

God is about truth, not lies dressed up to make them appear to be acceptable.

Ok thanks.. What can we call those days. I have friends who are JW but I have never heard them say anything about it. Do the JW celebrate any holidays. I know it's not in scripture, but the death burial resurrection is. Should we not recognize them and celebrate them. If you're answer was no then that is the answer. But what about those that say yes to wanting to recognize them. I don't see anything wrong with celebrating that. Does JW have they're own bible? You can't judge holiday's in scripture. Scripture says not to judge holiday's.

 

[soul man]

@Wrangler
"Some who say that they accept Jesus’ teachings view him as God’s Son, not as the Creator himself. Others believe in “the divinity of Christ” and think that he is actually God. They hold that Jesus always existed and was more than a human when he was here on the earth. Are they right about this? What do the Scriptures say?

Jesus testified that he had a prehuman existence. He said: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.” (John 3:13) Jesus also stated: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”—John 6:51.

Just before his death, Jesus prayed: “Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”—John 17:5.

The Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. . . .how could it could have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4, 5.

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to Jehovah? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

Those saying that Jesus was a God-man use various scriptures in an effort to prove that he is a member of Christendom’s Trinity, equal with God in essence, power, glory, and duration. But when we examine these texts carefully, we find that those arguing for “the divinity of Christ” view these verses as saying more than they really do.

....what did Jesus mean when he told his followers to baptize disciples “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit”? (Matthew 28:19, 20) Jesus did not mean or say that he, his Father, and the holy spirit were coequal. Rather, those baptized recognize Jehovah as the Life-Giver and Almighty God, to whom they dedicate their life. They accept Jesus as the Messiah and the one through whom God provided a ransom for believing mankind. And they realize that the holy spirit is God’s active force, to which they must submit.

Those who claim that God took on human existence as a God-man should note that the Bible does not even hint that Jesus viewed himself in such a way. Rather, it consistently shows that Jesus has always been inferior to his Father. When on the earth, Jesus never claimed to be more than "the Son of God". Moreover, Christ said: “The Father is greater than I am.”—John 14:28.

Paul made a distinction between Jehovah and Jesus in saying: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6) Paul also said: “You belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.” (1 Corinthians 3:23)"
(excerpts from https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1992044?q=divinity&p=par)

So was Jesus divine i.e. of a divine origin, or with divine authority? Or was Jesus deity, i.e. part God and part man?

Understanding the word "theos" in Greek answers that question....."theos" is translated "god" because this term applied to all those considered divine, or of divine origin, or with divine authority.

The word applied to the true God....to false gods....to satan....and even to the human Judges in Israel. It does not always mean the one singular God of Israel (Deuteronomy 6:4)...the Almighty Creator. There was no word for him in the Greek language because at that time, he was nameless. All the Greek gods had individual names, but Yahweh's name, according to a Jewish superstition, could not be uttered.

So, if the divine name had still been in use, John 1:1 the most widely used verse to promote the deity of Christ, would have read....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine."
And there would never have been this confusion. (John 17:3)

God's name was divine because it had the Creator himself as its origin. Jesus was divine because he too had the father as his Creator.....but nowhere is Jesus ever called a deity.

So Jesus was divine....but he was not God. He did not accept worship but said all worship was to go to his God and Father. (Luke 4:5-8) Quoting Deuteronomy 6:14 Jesus said "It is written ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

You use the word christian, which is a scriptural terminology. Christian term is a term for believers that have Christ in them. That happens by a birth, born again. Do you see a birth in scripture, such as you must be born again. I don't see anything about a birth in what you said in the OP. If you did I missed it. But you have no christians if you have no birth. I do see what christians believe about scripture confuses them about each other. We are only one by the one Christ in each one of us. So I'm just wondering about that. It looks like a lot of confusion from my perspective of what is written. I see Jesus in every born again believer - regardless of what they believe. They are believers (death burial and resurrection) .. that is what brought on a new birth, by Christ in them. By the death burial and resurrection. To me that is scriptural terminology. What we believe would be; our building on the foundation (Christ in you) such as.. wood hay stubble. But not the new birth. Without a new birth it will not matter what you build.

 

[JohnPaul]

Ok thanks.. What can we call those days. I have friends who are JW but I have never heard them say anything about it. Do the JW celebrate any holidays. I know it's not in scripture, but the death burial resurrection is. Should we not recognize them and celebrate them. If you're answer was no then that is the answer. But what about those that say yes to wanting to recognize them. I don't see anything wrong with celebrating that. Does JW have they're own bible? You can't judge holiday's in scripture. Scripture says not to judge holiday's.

I don't think you can call Christmas anything because like Aunty Jane said it's made up and I don't think anyone knows the date of Christ's birth, as for the crucifixion of Christ, you can call it the Memorial of Jesus' death.

 

[soul man]

I don't think you can call Christmas anything because like Aunt Jane said it's made up and I don't think anyone knows the date of Christ's birth, as for the crucifixion of Christ, you can call it the Memorial of Jesus' death.

Names and dates I understand.. but just saying why couldn't we use a day and time to celebrate a known fact without having to pinpoint exactly when it happened. We know it happened and we could celebrate a day of memorial.

 

[JohnPaul]

Names and dates I understand.. but just saying why couldn't we use a day and time to celebrate a known fact without having to pinpoint exactly when it happened. We know it happened and we could celebrate a day of memorial.

I don't think Christ would want us to celebrate his Birthday, as we are not supposed to celebrate our own.

 

[soul man]

I don't think Christ would want us to celebrate his Birthday, as we are not supposed to celebrate our own.

You could have a point.. but if we do - see through all things to him. See through commercialism and the frailty of a celebration.. to him who is our life.

 

[soul man]

I don't think Christ would want us to celebrate his Birthday, as we are not supposed to celebrate our own.

It's like Paul saying some preach Christ to contention. He is being preached even in the contention some would preach.

 

[JohnPaul]

You could have a point.. but if we do - see through all things to him. See through commercialism and the frailty of a celebration.. to him who is our life.

The only thing Christ said to do is to do this in remembrance of me at the last supper, that is all.

 

[soul man]

The only thing Christ said to do is to do this in remembrance of me at the last supper, that is all.

Yes, scripture says all things are of God. I get we can make that out to be anything we want. But if there is things in the world that are celebrated - instead of fighting in the world.. our stand for what is right.. why not see Christ in them - see through those things to him. We can choose that.. choose to see through it or fight against that kind of situations. You are not going to be able to see through all situations.. blatant sins. But when it comes to a celebration of something as great as Jesus dieing on a cross, we must see him in it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ok thanks.. What can we call those days. I have friends who are JW but I have never heard them say anything about it. Do the JW celebrate any holidays. I know it's not in scripture, but the death burial resurrection is. Should we not recognize them and celebrate them. If you're answer was no then that is the answer. But what about those that say yes to wanting to recognize them. I don't see anything wrong with celebrating that. Does JW have they're own bible? You can't judge holiday's in scripture. Scripture says not to judge holiday's.

True to Jesus’ admonition to his disciples, we are to be “no part of the world”, (John 17:16, John 18:36) so if we see “the world” celebrating certain things, we can ask first why they are celebrating them, and where did they come from?

Doesn’t it strike you as odd that everything the world celebrates, even when it purports to be “Christian” is tainted with pagan elements. Christmas and Easter are two of the most obvious. They pretend to be “Christian” but in practice, are as pagan as their ancient counterparts. Does this “Christianise” the paganism, or does it “paganise” the Christianity?

What did 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 tell us about how God feels about doing that? If we are to “separate” ourselves from those spiritually “unclean” things, where does that give us leave to do otherwise? We can justify them...but to whom? Certainly not to God who tells us that being “faithful in what is least” means that we will be “faithful also in much”. (Luke 16:10) So even in the little things we should exercise caution because of who is ruling this world....(1 John 5:19) He wants to taint our worship to make it unacceptable to God, but fooling the people into believing that God doesn’t care, even if it isn’t biblical. The devil laughs at their ignorance.

This is why we need to study God’s word and see what it teaches, especially when the false Christian “weeds” have dominated “the church” for centuries, indoctrinating all manner of false ideas, adopted from the worship that the devil sowed. (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-42)

Step back and see what satan did to God’s worship with his nation of Israel. Repeatedly God had to punish them for excursions into false worship adopted from the pagan nations around them. They at one time, were sacrificing their children in the fire to Molech. (Jeremiah 7:30-31)

When Jesus told us to memorialise his death, he did not intend that we should trivialise the occasion and introduce pagan elements to make it ‘fun for the children’.....seriously, what a slap in the face that is to God and his son. It is a solemn remembrance that replaced the Passover, held on the very same evening. Jesus and his apostles were celebrating the Passover when he introduced the new covenant with them on that night, thereby cancelling the old covenant and replacing it with the new.

His death was to be remembered for what it accomplished.....our release from bondage to sin and death....the forgiveness of our sins because of the value of his blood in our behalf.....and the implementation of a new covenant, which resulted in an eventual ‘divorce’ from apostate Judaism.

His resurrection, though a joyous outcome for all his suffering, was not something he commanded to be memorialised. It facilitated his return to heaven by being raised in a spirit body, (1 Peter 3:18) one that allowed him to “appear” to his disciples over the 40 days he remained to strengthen them before he returned to his Father in heaven.

So does the the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (the most selfless act of love in history) justify a long weekend for “the world” and gorging on chocolate? What do rabbits and eggs have to do with his death? And does God want us to taint such an important occasion with pagan elements along with the very name of the fertility goddess that was honoured in the original celebration?

What do you think?

 

[Wrangler]

He did say however (in Rev) that Christ is the word OF GOD.

It is such a simple and profound use of language, definition and logic. Anything 'of X' is not X. I am a son of Massachusetts. This does not mean I am the State. You are a user of forums, this does not make you a forum. The daughter of mine is most assuredly, not me. And the son of God is most assuredly, not God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@Wrangler
So Jesus was divine....but he was not God. He did not accept worship but said all worship was to go to his God and Father. (Luke 4:5-8) Quoting Deuteronomy 6:14 Jesus said "It is written ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’"

One of several mistakes in your OP....

Mat 23:10 Neither be called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.