Do you accept this a Biblical fact or fiction?:

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David in NJ

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One is not three. The trinity is inherently contradictory and it is easy to demonstrate. In fact, the inherent contradiction is always demonstrated when used. Perhaps it makes sense to you that Jesus fathered himself or that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus, making "the Father" not the father of Jesus.

Here is divine logic for you - one atom is composed of three parts - protons, nuetron and electrons = one atom.

Elohim is, in fact, according to His Word = Father Son and Holy Spirit = these Three are One.

Your logic is blind. Faith in His Word gives Light to See.

There is One Body of Christ - How many people make up His One Body?
There is One Holy Spirit - How can One Holy Spirit dwell in Billions of Believers all at the Same Time?
There is One Son of God seated at the Right Hand of the Father forever making intercession on our behalf -
How can He do this for Billions of His Children spread all over the world 24hrs a day continuosly?
 

Wrangler

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Here is divine logic for you - one atom is composed of three parts - protons, nuetron and electrons = one atom.

You know that they discovered other subatomic particles in atoms, right? So, you stopping at 3 is just arbitrary to support your doctrine. Not sure how this is divine logic ...
 

Ronald Nolette

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Just because he is the Son of God, and has a similar spirit being nature as God, that doesn't mean that he is God! You are not your father, Jesus is not his Father - he is not God.

You must have drunken the same stupid juice as Wrangler. I have never said and repeated over and over ad-naueum that Jesus is not His Father.

Jesus does not have a similar spirit- He has the same divinity8 as His father! NOw read this carefully and hopefully learn- He is just as much divine as His Father but He is not His Father. I purposely use the word divine to separate the nature of the triune god from the person of the Father as you and others can't seem to know the difference though I have written it in third grade comprehension levels.

See I recognize JOhn 1:1 which when looked in the original causes one to understand!

John 1:1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


to translate this in English grammatically and linguistically correct we would write:

At the start of everything, the Word was already in existence. and the Word was with THE God and the word was God.

John distinguishes who we know as god the Father by calling Him THE God, but yet still describing Jesus as God. JOhn is not saying (as I did not) that Jesus is His Father, but that Jesus is as divine as His Father. Equal (not similar) in nature but inferior in authority and poisition.
 

tigger 2

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David wrote: "Here is divine logic for you - one atom is composed of three parts - protons, nuetron [sic] and electrons = one atom."

Not that it matters, but the most abundant atom in the universe has only one large proton and one small electron.
 
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David in NJ

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Here is divine logic for you - one atom is composed of three parts - protons, nuetron and electrons = one atom.

Elohim is, in fact, according to His Word = Father Son and Holy Spirit = these Three are One.

Your logic is blind. Faith in His Word gives Light to See.
Oh? What verse says this, which contradicts 1,000's of verses that say God alone is one?

Read my previous posts - the evidence is overwhelming in Scripture.

i was using your own trust in logic to show you how you fight against basic logic with a basic single atom.
How many parts in One Car? How many parts in One Plane? Remove just a few essential parts and it's a no-go.

God said - "the heaven of heavens cannot contain Him" - how many atomic particles are there in Creation?
In all the universes and all creation there still is not enough room for God - but you mock Scripture.
Who now is the illogical and close minded person on here???

Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD,
or informed Him as His counselor?
Whom did He consult to enlighten Him,
and who taught Him the paths of justice?
Who imparted knowledge to Him
and showed Him the way of understanding?
Isaiah 40
 

David in NJ

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David wrote: "Here is divine logic for you - one atom is composed of three parts - protons, nuetron [sic] and electrons = one atom."

Not that it matters, but the most abundant atom in the universe has only one large proton and one small electron.

Yeah, i was not attempting to be precisely scientific here.
Like saying how many parts make up One Airplane? Remove just one or two parts and you have a big problem.
Simple logic - most created things that are a singular 'one' have many many parts/ingredients/chemistry/biology to its being = Tree, Flower, Bird, Man, Socks, Underwear, a Book, Toothbrush etc

Another good example is that mankind is without excuse because the world around us broadcasts daily that there is a Creator.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, Romans 1:20
 

tigger 2

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Ronald wrote above: "See I recognize JOhn 1:1 which when looked in the original causes one to understand!

John 1:1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


to translate this in English grammatically and linguistically correct we would write:

At the start of everything, the Word was already in existence. and the Word was with THE God and the word was God."


.........................................

As you should know by now, "a god" is the proper translation for John 1:1c. You still don't care enough for the truth of this matter by continuing to ignore posts #134-137, 141.

No, grammatically, linguistically, and honestly it should be rendered: "In [the] beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with the God, and a god was the Logos."
 
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David in NJ

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Ronald wrote above: "See I recognize JOhn 1:1 which when looked in the original causes one to understand!

John 1:1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


to translate this in English grammatically and linguistically correct we would write:

At the start of everything, the Word was already in existence. and the Word was with THE God and the word was God."


.........................................

As you should know by now, "a god" is the proper translation for John 1:1c. You still don't care enough for the truth of this matter by continuing to ignore posts #134-137, 141.

No, grammatically, linguistically, and honestly it should be rendered: "In [the] beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with the God, and a god was the Logos."

It was impossible for the Holy Spirit to impress on the Apostle John - "a god".
Elohim is Echad and He will have no other gods before Him.

“You shall have no other gods before Me". - Exodus 20:3
“To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal And compare Me, that we should be alike? Isa 46:5

So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Mark 10:18

What do say of the Lord Jesus Christ - is He good?
 

tigger 2

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It was impossible for the Holy Spirit to impress on the Apostle John - "a god".
Elohim is Echad and He will have no other gods before Him.

“You shall have no other gods before Me". - Exodus 20:3
“To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal And compare Me, that we should be alike? Isa 46:5

So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Mark 10:18

What do say of the Lord Jesus Christ - is He good?

The footnote in post #135 says:

Footnote for Lesson B.:

Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Scriptures actually describe men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's holy angels as gods include:

1. Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, "Hints and Helps...," Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew & Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

4. Today's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;

5. Hastings' A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;

11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;

14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press,1975;

15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 & Ps. 82:6);

16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);

18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.

25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.

29. Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies, John 10:36.

(Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV)

And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Hellenic Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for theos about the same time the NT was written. - See my LOGOS study.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of "The Epistle to Diognetus"; and even super-Trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding that a man (or an angel) can be called "a god" in a righteous sense. And, as we saw above, many respected NT scholars of this century agree. For example, “The reason why judges are called ‘gods’ in Ps 82 [quoted by Jesus in John 10:34] is that they have the office of administering God’s judgment as ‘sons of the Most High’. …. On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the role of a true judge as a ‘god’ and ‘son of the Most High’” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.
 

David in NJ

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The footnote in post #135 says:

Footnote for Lesson B.:

Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Scriptures actually describe men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's holy angels as gods include:

1. Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, "Hints and Helps...," Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew & Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

4. Today's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;

5. Hastings' A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;

11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;

14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press,1975;

15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 & Ps. 82:6);

16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);

18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.

25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.

29. Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies, John 10:36.

(Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV)

And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Hellenic Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for theos about the same time the NT was written. - See my LOGOS study.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of "The Epistle to Diognetus"; and even super-Trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding that a man (or an angel) can be called "a god" in a righteous sense. And, as we saw above, many respected NT scholars of this century agree. For example, “The reason why judges are called ‘gods’ in Ps 82 [quoted by Jesus in John 10:34] is that they have the office of administering God’s judgment as ‘sons of the Most High’. …. On the other hand, Jesus fulfilled the role of a true judge as a ‘god’ and ‘son of the Most High’” - The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

The earliest christians where Adam and Eve - after that we have Enoch, Noah, Abraham Isaac and Jacob, Moses, Joshua, David and all the others who i missed.
Finally we had the Apostles and that completed the written Scripture.

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me
To do Your will, O God.’ ” Hebrews 10: 6-7

They all ate the same spiritual food
and drank the same spiritual drink;
for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them,
and that rock was Christ. 1 Cor 10:1-4

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

Scripture cannot lie
 

tigger 2

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David wrote - - again: Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

Scripture cannot lie

........................................

As I told you earlier in post #39, "I am" is not only not a name for Jesus, it isn't even a name or title for God. Try actually reading post #39.
 

michaelvpardo

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Whenever I come across this, I look up again the definition of rote. What does it have to do with the OP question?

This thread is not about mystery but using reason to grasp Scripture. Logic is the art of the non-contradictory identification of truth. To paraphrase Galileo, I don't believe God would give us reason to forgo its use.

Does this mean there is no mysteries? Of course not. It means that logic still works even if some things remain unknown to us. However, unknown is not the same thing as a contradiction.
It is possible to apply logic and reason to the spiritual, but the carnal mind doesn't receive the things of the spirit, nor can it. How can you apply logic to something which is incomprehensible to the carnal mind unless you are spiritual?
The logic of the trinity has become quite simple since Albert Einstein developed his theories of general and special relativity, but not everyone is familiar with them.

Time and space are not separate entities.
The Father that Jesus referred to is God the eternal spirit, self existant and not a part of His creation. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God intersecting with the world and operating in time. The Son of God is the eternal spirit taking the form of man in the person of His Son. One God manifested as 3, the eternal spirit existing outside of creation, the eternal spirit manifesting in creation, the eternal spirit manifested in flesh.
God's interaction with creation necessitates taking on limitations, but the eternal spirit of the Father is without limits, present everywhere, throughout time and outside of time. We live in creation and experience time sequentially so it isn't possible for us to interact with God the Father except through His Spirit and the mediation of His Son.
It's not exactly rocket science.
 
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David in NJ

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David wrote - - again: Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

Scripture cannot lie

........................................

As I told you earlier in post #39, "I am" is not only not a name for Jesus, it isn't even a name or title for God. Try actually reading post #39.

Wow - i guessed you proved the Father Son and Holy Spirit all wrong = that's never been done before!!!
 

David in NJ

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David wrote - - again: Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58

Scripture cannot lie

........................................

As I told you earlier in post #39, "I am" is not only not a name for Jesus, it isn't even a name or title for God. Try actually reading post #39.

What about this name given to Jesus in Mark 10:18

So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
 

keithr

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What about this name given to Jesus in Mark 10:18

So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
"Good" is not a name! Jesus was probably referring to Psalms 85:5 and 199:68, which state that Yahweh is good.

Jesus was saying, 'Don't call me good, because only God is good', therefore he was effectively stating that he was not God. Nobody listening thought that Jesus was claiming that he was God. The person Jesus was addressing then replied (verse 20), “Teacher, I have observed all these things from my youth.” He referred to Jesus as teacher/master - not as God!
 
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David in NJ

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"Good" is not a name! Jesus was probably referring to Psalms 85:5 and 199:68, which state that Yahweh is good.

Jesus was saying, 'Don't call me good, because only God is good', therefore he was effectively stating that he was not God. Nobody listening thought that Jesus was claiming that he was God. The person Jesus was addressing then replied (verse 20), “Teacher, I have observed all these things from my youth.” He referred to Jesus as teacher/master - not as God!

You just called the Lord Jesus Christ a sinner.

Jesus is either the Good God or He is a sinner just as He quoted Scripture = "none doeth good, no one is good but God."

You cannot have it both ways my friend.

Scripture cannot lie.
For Scripture is the WORD from the beginning.
 
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keithr

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You just called the Lord Jesus Christ a sinner.
No I didn't! Jesus was meek and lowly (Matthew 11:29) and was not judging himself as being good, or boasting. He was giving God all the glory.

Jesus is either the Good God or He is a sinner just as He quoted Scripture = "none doeth good, no one is good but God."
Jesus didn't say "none doeth good". Jesus was without sin (Hebrew 4:15) and he did good works, but he didn't boast about it, he gave God the glory. The only person that the Scriptures say is good is Yahweh, as Jesus indicated.

About two thirds of the angels are not sinners, but they are not God. Just because Jesus was not a sinner that does not mean that he was God! Just because he taught that we should consider nobody as good except God, that doesn't mean that he was claiming to be God.
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