Do you believe the lie?

[Hiddenthings]

@PS95 look if you want to try and prove hypostasis I'll certainly entertain your attempts, but please know every theologian who has attempted draws to the conclusion its an unknowable mystery.

• The belief contradicts the clear purpose of Scripture, which is to make God and Jesus knowable.
• It obscures the true understanding of Christ’s nature and identity.
• Believing in a dual nature deflects from the true accountability of the atonement, which rests entirely on Christ being like us “in every respect” a foundation principle of his priesthood "taken from among men".
• It elevates tradition above the original Gospel, even though (oddly) you affirmed Jesus was a descendant of David according to the flesh.

Overall, it's a disappointing place to be when you consider the clarity and insight the true, original gospel offers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Zao is life @Spiritual Israelite @marks

I hope you guys don't mind me butting in here. I have to say it truly breaks my heart when I see believers treat each other this way. Our Lord suffered so much for us on that cross, and what He asks is that we treat others the way we want to be treated and LOVE one another. Is not obedience to the Lord's command worth much?
False teachers- are those such as JWs, SDA etc..
YOU 3 are believers.- we are one body- Christ's body -and this way of behaving toward each other disrespects the Lord's body.
We all agree on the foundational salvational issues! Some things we will not all agree on but is it salvational? Do we tear apart Christ's body over non-essentials? I can't do it! We are all at varying places in our walk with the Lord. WE need to exhibit patience with each other and try to walk in the Spirit of love and gentleness, This is just not right. WE are ONE standing against the other spiritual forces here that love when you fight. Please reconcile? If not for my sake, that's fine- then do it for Jesus.
Kiss and make up people..!

I'm not sure why you included me here. Can you not see that I went out of my way to try to not make things personal with marks? I don't think there's anything personal between us. We agreed to disagree.

 

[Zao is life]

@Dan Clarkston 's Post #140 suffices for my view about that.

I'm not really reading his posts . . . just FYI

By who's choice? There is the new creation, who we are in spirit, and there is the flesh which is already condemned, and remains hostile to God. The new creation spirit would not depart from God. The flesh remains hostile to God.

If we walk in the Spirit, we won't do the works of the flesh. Included such things as "rejecting God", that is clearly a work of the flesh. The flesh is already condemned.

Notice how this part is contrasted against this part?

Personally I prefer the King James, I find it a better translation,

Hebrews 6:4-9 KJV

8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

This shows the contrast more clearly, Things that accompany salvation, which are better things, the writer says, than those things said above.

Notice in verses 4 and 5 how the writer gives a list of things, but does not include any reference to rebirth? Or being baptized into Christ? Or being in the body of Christ? None of the ways salvation in the NT is spoken of are used here.

However, everything said can be applied to the Jews who saw Jesus.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,

They heard Jesus, they saw Jesus, the true light, that enlightens every man. But not every man is saved.

and have tasted of the heavenly gift,

They received a taste, being healed, demons cast out, bread and fish multiplied . . .

and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

in the simple aorist tense, not like the perfect tense used of those who hold their confidence to the end (Heb 10), Jesus sent out the 12, and then the 70, doing all the same miracles Jesus did by the power of the Holy Spirit.

5) And have tasted the good word of God,

He taught them all the Father commanded

and the powers of the world to come,

lit. the age to come. A glimpse into the future of Israel with Jesus reigns.

At the end of this part, the writer says that he's convinced of better things than what he's written about, things that accompany salvation. The preceding part therefore is not "things that accompany salvation".

So rather than saying a saved person may be permanently unsaved, which conflicts with much Scripture, he's saying that these who saw Him, heard Him, were healed by Him, some of whom even did the same works as Him, these cannot be brought back to repentance.

These are the ones who could commit blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, claiming Jesus' works (which proved His identity) were satanic in origin. All sins would be forgiven men except this one. This one sin, where the rulers of the people blasphemed the Holy Spirit so the people would not believe.

Think about it.

Much love!

Sorry but I don't agree with the way you're dissecting that passage. Smacks to me of trying to make what it's saying comply with your view, or with what you prefer it to be saying. Nobody is made a partaker of the Holy Spirit unless that person has been born of the Spirit. You're ignoring the fact that they are falling away from something.

That's a rather light view of the years I've spent considering all the different ways these words might be understood, on something so integral to a correct soteriology.

So, you don't know me, and you don't know me to be this way, or that way. Right? Forget about me. I'm just some guy typing on the internet. Best used for cat videos and arguing with strangers.

The one thing I ask you, consider what I say, whether it may be true. My goal isn't to show you my interpretations, rather to show what the words say for themselves.

Much love!

I'm sorry I don't want to offend you knowing your years of research. See my Post #162.

Years of research beginning with attempting to find proof of a premise that's false can do that to a person. Not meaning to minimize your work but just being honest.

I think the way you're explaining the plain meaning away is convoluted. Maybe because my years of research and prayerful study - asking God for understanding of the scriptures - has led me to an entirely different conclusion.

And that's the problem with the human mind that the teaching of the Spirit has to pass through. It's no different for any of us.

We should agree now to disagree because I'm too straight-forward and you've taken offense.

We are all being compared to branches in that passage. And Jesus is being compared to a vine. So cast forth as a branch simply means cast away like a dead branch would be cast away.

Yes, let's be honest. You don't know me so you'll have to take my word for it. That's not me. I'm a lover of truth. That's why I became Christian in the first place. I've spent years examining every possible relevant verse to see what it was the Bible teaches about our salvation. I'll be happy to look through each one with you.

You impugne my motives, only because my conclusions don't match yours.

Much love!

I believe you but I also believe me when I place myself and yourself in the same category of human beings whose minds and intellect have an interfering effect on the teaching that the Holy Spirit is giving us.

Just because I believe you are wrong (which I truly do - I don't disagree for the sake of debate) doesn't mean either you or I are necessarily correct.

But I'm also a lover of the truth and I truly do not believe that the way you are dissecting the passage is accurate.

Ok, but I do appreciate if you can stick to the topic, and I'm not the topic. Just sayin'.

It's a way to disregard what I'm telling you. But I'm totally serious, if you look, you will see what I'm saying is correct. John's Greek is very simple, very plain. That's why they start first year Koine Greek students on translating John. It's beginner level.

Much love!

No, I've not taken offense, I want to keep the conversation on track. There is no fruitfulness, imo, to each of us sharing our opinions of each other base on our perceptions of this brief exchange. There is much fruitfulness to discussing the Scriptures.

Much love!

(But @marks you did take offense because I was not agreeing with you and "you love the truth" and "have done years of study") so despite the hundreds of years of the study of others and the many years of my study or anyone else's, you are right and everyone who disagrees with you does not love the truth - that's what it implies - about everyone who does not agree with you:

Carried away to where? According to verse 6, they are taken away and burned in the fire.


Your argument about this verse does not make any sense. All references to people who are in Christ in John 15 compare them to being like branches. He's never referring to literal branches there. The branches figuratively represent those who are in Christ, so in that way all of those who are in Christ are like branches whether they are fruitful or not.

Verse 2 shows that Jesus contrasted branches who are in Him and are fruitful with those branches who are in Him and are not fruitful. He does the exact same thing in verses 5 and 6.

It continues like this. The more I ask @marks that we should stop because we are not going to agree, the more he insists he needs to teach me why I'm wrong and he's right.

@marks why did you not simply start your own thread about the subject when it's plain we do not agree and we have both given reasons why we do not agree?

I'll tell you why - it's because you were determined to "prove" to me why I'm wrong and you are right, and it means that I do not love the truth "do not hear His voice" etc etc or believe scriptures.

You imply things as you go along - NICE things about yourself and NASTY things about the person you're talking to. Then you take offense at the slightest thing, and act as though the person you're talking to is "unkind" or "nasty" (whatever).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

(But @marks you did take offense because I was not agreeing with you and "you love the truth" and "have done years of study") so despite the hundreds of years of the study of others and the many years of my study or anyone else's, you are right and everyone who disagrees with you does not love the truth - that's what it implies - about everyone who does not agree with you:



It continues like this. The more I ask @marks that we should stop because we are not going to agree, the more he insists he needs to teach me why I'm wrong and he's right.

@marks why did you not simply start your own thread about the subject when it's plain we do not agree and we have both given reasons why we do not agree?

I'll tell you why - it's because you were determined to "prove" to me why I'm wrong and you are right, and it means that I do not love the truth "do not hear His voice" etc etc or believe scriptures.

You imply things as you go along - NICE things about yourself and NASTY things about the person you're talking to. Then you take offense at the slightest thing, and act as though the person you're talking to is "unkind" or "nasty" (whatever).

I have to agree. I don't know how he can deny that telling someone "I love the truth" doesn't come across as him implying that the person he is talking to doesn't love the truth. Or telling someone he has done years of study doesn't come across as him implying that he thinks the person he is talking to hasn't also done years of study. Whether that was his intention or not, that is how it comes across.

 

[Zao is life]

Hebrews 3:14 YLT
14) for partakers we have become of the Christ, if the beginning of the confidence unto the end we may hold fast,

View attachment 63204
This gets back to the grammar.

"we have become" is in the perfect tense, that is, an action with enduring effect. Something that is done that remains done. It's like an unrung bell. Until you ring it, that's what it is. Then you ring it. It will never again be an unrung bell. That's the sense of the perfect tense.

This passage is saying that some have become partakers of Christ, and remain that way, but it's only true IF they actually hold their confidence to the end.

Your way of interpreting the tenses is completely faulty.

The Hebrews passage is another way of saying if you do not abide in the Vine you will wither and die and be cast forth as a branch and be burned.

Jesus is the source of eternal life - the only source. The reason He gave us illustrations from nature is so that we can understand - like the illustration of living water is given to us so that we can understand that just like if we do not continually drink water, we will DIE OF THIRST, so we must continually drink the living water or we will die

It's plain to see that the reason why you choose your way of interpreting the tenses, is because you have begun with an OSAS premise and so need to make the passage comply with OSAS.

It's very obvious to all except those who believe in OSAS.