do you KNOW the Lord

[mailmandan]

Don't know if the above conversation was related to SDAs, but when you speak of an "SDA gospel of salvation by grace plus law" you reveal your ignorance of their teaching. But hey, don't feel bad, you're not on your own in pronouncing conclusions based on faulty information from those who don't bother to investigate the truth any more than you have. I suggest if you want to be in a position to pronounce such declarations and be confident that what you are saying is actually real, you do some study and actually read some SDA material for yourself.

I have studied and read some SDA material for myself and have read what Ex-Adventists have had to say about the teachings of the SDA church. I've also been in discussions with SDA's on multiple Christian forum sites for years and everything with them revolves around the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment). Here is a statement below in blue made by a SDA on a Christian Chat site which further demonstrates my point they teach salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works:

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

 

[charity]

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

Hello @mailmandan

I have not read through the thread, or considered it's subject matter, but was drawn to what you had written. What a wonderful word of truth this is! I came across it myself again in my studies this week and rejoiced in it once more. The whole prayer is wonderful, but let's take a look at the words leading up to your reference:-

'These words spake Jesus,
and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said,
"Father, the hour is come;
glorify Thy Son,
that Thy Son also may glorify Thee:
As Thou hast given Him power over all flesh,
that He should give eternal life
to as many as Thou hast given Him.
And this is life eternal,
that they might know Thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou hast sent.'
(John 17:1-3)

* This knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ and the oneness with the Father and the Son by the Spirit that is ours in Christ, is received and enjoyed by means of the reception of the Truth, via the word of God. This is stated further on in this prayer isn't it? In verses 14-21. Our experiential knowledge is the fruit that is born as a result of the reception of the wondrous truth that has been revealed by God, through His Son (Hebrews 1:1-2), by His Spirit (John 14:26).

* What a wonderful God He is, isn't He? In all three of His manifestations.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

@BOWnQUIVER,

Hello there,

Wonderful as it is that I can 'know' God, and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit, it is even more wonderful to me that He could 'know' me!

'And if any man think that he knoweth any thing,
he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
But if any man love God, the same is known of Him.'
(1Co 8:2)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Brakelite]

I have studied and read some SDA material for myself and have read what Ex-Adventists have had to say about the teachings of the SDA church. I've also been in discussions with SDA's on multiple Christian forum sites for years and everything with them revolves around the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment). Here is a statement below in blue made by a SDA on a Christian Chat site which further demonstrates my point they teach salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works:

The counterfeit Gospel is out there. What is the other Gospel? It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's Law (10 commandments) from the Cross. It is a Gospel that tries to separate God's 10 commandments from the plan of salvation. God’s Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ.

Would you reference Bread of Life, Marymog, Philip James and the other Catholics on this site as your authority on what is true Catholic teaching? What about me, who is ex Catholic, would you consider me an authority on Catholicism? Those Catholics above would tell you to go to the source, not to trust in ex Catholics or even themselves. They would say, go to the catechism.
Your quote above from that forum poster is a correct reflevtion of SDA teaching, but you are choosing to look at it through your bigoted perspective. He isn't saying grace plus law. He's saying grace and the law are inseparable. Thing is, you don't understand what that means. And you don't want to. You don't want to obey God's Commandments. You've already written them off and you have no intention of appreciating the intimate relationship between grace, law, obedience, and faith.

Just to make it abundantly and absolutely clear. No where. Not in one instance, any where in any Adventist official writing... Not in Ellen White's numerous books or articles, not in any of the books or articles written by the any of the pioneers of adventism, will you find one statement anywhere suggesting even remotely that any person is justified by obeying God's commandments. Not one.

Here's quote from Ellen White...
And now, having spoken plainly of the fulfillment of familiar prophecies concerning the Messiah, Paul preached unto them repentance and the remission of sin through the merits of Jesus their Saviour. "Be it known unto you," he said, "that through this Man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: and by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." AA 172.2

And yet the Apostles Paul says
KJV Romans 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So. Seeing you have pronounced yourself so learned in Adventist teaching, let us see if you can harmonize these seeming contractictory statements.

 

[justbyfaith]

Very simply, that we are regenerated and renewed by the Holy Ghost because of the mercy of our Lord and not by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5). But that this regeneration and renewal is a change in the paradigm of and in the mind of the one who is truly born again, so that he is no longer inclined towards walking in the flesh but will walk according to the Spirit. In this, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in him (Romans 8:4)

Therefore, it is that faith is an attitude that produces good works and that produces the fruit of the Spirit; against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).

There is a holiness therefore in the lives of everyone who is truly born again of the Holy Spirit.

It is even a holiness that amounts to a lack of disobedience to the law of the LORD.

This obedience does not come through seeking to obey a set of do's and don'ts. Rather, it comes through faith in Jesus Christ, who through that faith gives us His Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:14).

Then, as the result of having the Spirit, we bear the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). The love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) and this love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4). It is not impractical (1 John 3:17-18) but operates in works that the Lord has prepared in advance for us to walk in (Ephesians 2:10).

These things show forth to men who is truly redeemed (see Romans 4:2).

Before God, who looks not on the outward appearance but on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7), invisible faith (which God alone sees) is the criteria by which He judges a man worthy of salvation. He does not even have to look at our works to be able to determine whether or not we are saved; that is for man's benefit.

 

[mjrhealth]

@BOWnQUIVER,

Hello there,

Wonderful as it is that I can 'know' God, and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit, it is even more wonderful to me that He could 'know' me!

'And if any man think that he knoweth any thing,
he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
But if any man love God, the same is known of Him.'
(1Co 8:2)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Amen and what was it He said,

Luk_13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Im sure He would do teh same for is if we would but,

Heb_4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

 

[mjrhealth]

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 

[justbyfaith]

Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

We are not justified by seeking to obey a set of do's and don'ts, but if we become justified by Christ, we will begin to become doers of the law.

Thus, there is no contradiction between those scriptures. (read them carefully and note the exactness of what they say and how there is a reconciliation between them if you read between the lines).

 

[mjrhealth]

Thus, there is no contradiction between those scriptures. (read them carefully and note the exactness of what they say and how there is a reconciliation between them if you read between the lines).

Doers of the law no, but walking in Love, because God is Love, and Love needs no laws. Do you keep the sabbath, I dont,

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you keep the sabbath, I dont,

Not perfectly, but I do my best.

 

[justbyfaith]

Doers of the law no, but walking in Love, because God is Love, and Love needs no laws.

The law is the specifics of God's love (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

 

[Jay Ross]

"Do you know the Lord?," is not a very good question to ask of people as most people know the Lord, but they do not necessarily have any relationship with the Lord.

A better question to ask a person is, "How is your relationship, with the Lord?," because this requires the person to be honest with themselves about their walking relationship with God/the Lord/Jesus, within His earthly domain.

An even better question to ask a person is, "How is your relationship with the God/Lord/Jesus that you worship during every aspect of your day?"

This question can be shortened down to, "How is your relationship with the God that you worship all of the time?" This question is much better as it is non judgemental and it gives an opportunity to begin to understand the person and where that person is at and allows us, who Love the Lord, to begin to speak Life into the person's life by sharing our experiences with the Lord/God that we worship and how He has met our needs.

Our witness is meant to be a means by which God can then draw that person to Himself to meet their particular needs. In our witness, we need to be real and honest with ourselves firstly, and then with the people we are in conversation with about the Lord and His impact on our lives.

Our Job is to encourage everybody that we rub shoulders with to be drawn to the Lord God and to begin believing in Him, Whom He has sent.

Shalom,

Jay Ross

 

[farouk]

We need to encourage one another, indeed...

 

[justbyfaith]

The person to whom you are speaking may not worship the Lord 24/7...so your question would be containing a lie within it.

 

[mjrhealth]

The law is the specifics of God's love (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

And it is because of Love we have nothing to do with the law. You cannot sit here and tel others the should not keep the law, than do the very same thing yourself. Any one who says tehy "keep"teh law is spitting in our Lords face. Its id by grace you are saved by faith, by His works not your own, and that very law will always be "your"works. Thats why He said

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

so which is it the old or the new, or will you mix the two and break it all as you do,

 

[justbyfaith]

And it is because of Love we have nothing to do with the law. You cannot sit here and tel others the should not keep the law, than do the very same thing yourself. Any one who says tehy "keep"teh law is spitting in our Lords face. Its id by grace you are saved by faith, by His works not your own, and that very law will always be "your"works. Thats why He said

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

so which is it the old or the new, or will you mix the two and break it all as you do,

The Old Covenant is definitely passing away (Hebrews 8:13). However, it is also true that the New Covenant includes the law (Romans 8:8-10). In it, the law is written on the heart and in the mind (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

 

[mjrhealth]

The Old Covenant is definitely passing away (Hebrews 8:13). However, it is also true that the New Covenant includes the law (Romans 8:8-10). In it, the law is written on the heart and in the mind (Hebrews 8:8-10, Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, Romans 5:5, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

You are missing the whole thing the Law is all about self, always has being, you are supposed to be a Christian in faith, justified in Christ the righteousness of Christ, not chasing after the old law, which is all you are doing. If you are perusing after teh law, you are not under grace and if not under grace you are not justified in Him. All you seek to do is justify yourself by your flesh. Its time to put down that bible and do what He said to a friend of mine"But what do I say". But if you insist on that bible you will never come into the truth.

 

[Jay Ross]

The person to whom you are speaking may not worship the Lord 24/7...so your question would be containing a lie within it.

Ha! a Pharisee wants to be precise in the question rather that to allow the other person to clarify whether or not they worship the God that they worship 24/7 or not.

If we must be precise, then the question would be best shortened to, "How is your relationship with the "god" that you worship?," so that there is no need for a time spent aspect to the question? Oh well!

 

[Rene Loup]

Just a friendly reminder: The Pharisees were also confident that they knew the Lord.[3][4][5] So much so, they even slandered[2] their own long-awaited Messiah because He was not the kind of person they were hoping for.[1]

1. John 2:13-25, Luke 11:37-54, 16:1-15, Matthew 23:1-39
2. Luke 11:14-28, Mark 3:20-35, Matthew 12:22-37, 28:1-15
3. Pharisee | Definition, History, & Legacy
4. Who Were the Pharisees in the Bible?
5. Who Were the Pharisees and How Did They Get It So Wrong?

 

[justbyfaith]

If you are perusing after teh law, you are not under grace and if not under grace you are not justified in Him.

Jas 1:25, But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Here, a man is blessed in his deed for looking into and continuing in the perfect law of liberty...

So, you're saying that a man can be not under grace and not justified in Him and yet be blessed with a blessing of holy scripture?

What would be the point of such a blessing if there is no redemption for all of those who have that blessing?

But if you insist on that bible you will never come into the truth.

Jesus said to the Father,

Jhn 17:17, Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Ha! a Pharisee wants to be precise in the question

It is not the aspect of being a Pharisee that leads me to want to be precise; but a desire to stay as close as possible to the truth.