Do you support Black Lives Matter?

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Reggie Belafonte

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The idea that it's wrong for police to go after black citizens just for being black, is what makes BLM go. And it's why BLM is supported by a majority of Americans.
How Public Opinion Has Moved on Black Lives Matter

Racists are cross-eyed with fury over it, but it won't matter.

Some time ago, a friend emailed me about a white shooter in a large city. An unarmed (black) security officer tackled him, saving who knows how many lives. He was still trying to get the gun away from the perp when the police arrived. They killed the security officer.

I responded "If I was black, I'd probably be angry all the time." He cited Baldwin's comment that to be an aware black man in America meant one is in a constant state of rage.

And then I thought to myself; "why the (bleep) am I not angry?" My friend (and former colleague and neighbor) is black. His son used to watch my place and water the gardens for me when I was out of town. He has to worry about his boys and explain to them how they can do everything right, and still have some racist cop kill them for nothing, and tell them what they must do as a black male in America to reduce that very real possibility.

These are my friends and neighbors and fellow Americans at risk for no reason other than the color of their skin. Yes, I'm angry. And we need to put an end to it. Millions of others like me, that's why America supports BLM.
Only fools support BLM, what are bigots like them going to do ? dictate ! That's all idiots can do is dictate, Bible points out, THEY WANT BUT THEY CAN NOT HAVE, BECAUSE THEY ASK AMISS. Clearly Godless morons !
Being angry mainly blinds people to reality.

Clearly it's much cunning at work behind all this, that the media is peddling and clearly groups of idiots are being sponsored to cause as much trouble in the Nation as they can in going about and terrorising people, maybe they are working to create another sort of IRA type of hell, so as to push the racial divide clash going strong and then hope to bring in their Godless dictatorship in to dominate over everyone like a mongrel dog that such people clearly are. they are totally in the wrong running about causing violence and will full destruction and the media supports such idiots to be out of control.

The Media should not be adding and abetting morons like that at all regardless.
 
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Yehren

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The idea that it's wrong for police to go after black citizens just for being black, is what makes BLM go. And it's why BLM is supported by a majority of Americans.
How Public Opinion Has Moved on Black Lives Matter

Racists are cross-eyed with fury over it, but it won't matter.

Only fools support BLM,

You think Americans are fools? That explains a lot.

Being angry mainly blinds people to reality.

That's how racists roll. It's why Americans reject racism and support BLM.
 
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Yehren

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Just to remind everyone, Civics 101, America is not a Protestant country; never was. It was founded on the idea that the government would stay completely out of religion, based on the observation of how horribly religious establishment went in Europe.
 

Prayer Warrior

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The idea that it's wrong for police to go after black citizens just for being black, is what makes BLM go. And it's why BLM is supported by a majority of Americans.

This is a nonissue for many of us in America. Justice for ALL is what many of us desire and fight for! It's selfish to fight for justice where it only concerns what we perceive as OUR group. This goes for people of any color or persuasion....

As for the support of BLM, the schools have done their job in brainwashing children to believe that only blacks experience injustice at the hands of the police. It's a shame, though, because the problem of injustice is much broader. I have no doubt that many more whites and Hispanics have experienced this than blacks! So...it's really not a matter of color. After all, there ARE black police officers who unjustly arrest blacks....There are white officers who unjustly arrest whites.... I think you get the picture.

Take the color out of BLM, and what do you have? Maybe ALL Americans uniting and standing up for justice for ALL! But most of all, remove the Marxist leanings from BLM, and you really don't have a group because they lose their foundational platform. In case you haven't heard, one of the founders (as well as one of the organizers) is an admitted "trained Marxist" in her own words!!!
.
 
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Brakelite

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Just to remind everyone, Civics 101, America is not a Protestant country; never was. It was founded on the idea that the government would stay completely out of religion, based on the observation of how horribly religious establishment went in Europe.
In that I would totally agree, and I must confess it isn't often I agree with a Catholic... No offense.
However...I would add a caveat...
The idea or concept of religious freedom, something that existed in Europe but only in isolated individuals, was not to be found in the church, in fact precisely the opposite, even as late as the 19th century when Pius expressed Catholic policy and Vatican thought very succinctly and clearly with his several denials of religious freedom in his syllabus of errors. A number of Catholic articles since then could be cited as affirmation that the concept of religious freedom in the Catholic mind, at least until the mid 20th century, was only to upheld for itself, the idea being when in any country there would be a Catholic majority, religious freedom for others would only be toleration, and that only under certain conditions. I'm not completely certain that such a perspective has dramatically changed... Certainly not in the bowels of the Vatican.
On the other hand, complete religious freedom... That is granting liberty even for those with whom you may vehemently disagree... As a concept didn't develop politically and judicially until suggested by such writers as Jefferson, Madison, and Locke. Such was also taught by Robinson earlier, but he was roundly persecuted for suggesting it... By fellow Protestants. Both religious paradigms had a lot to learn... But I suggest that Protestantism was the first to recognise it as a God given right, and certainly America the first to fully implement it. Although certainly it often comes under attack and has to be defended often and kept as a concept and godly practice constantly before the public eye. It's worth protecting.
 
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Yehren

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The idea that it's wrong for police to go after black citizens just for being black, is what makes BLM go. And it's why BLM is supported by a majority of Americans.

This is a nonissue for many of us in America.

It's not a nonissue if you happen to be a black male or have a black son. Then it's a constant worry. Imagine a black man, going out for a run at night. Turns out, part of that process is considering what clothing would be perceived as least threatening to white people. I had no idea, but it's true.

Justice for ALL

And that's the problem. It's not the same for everyone, and sometimes it gets innocent people killed.

It's selfish to fight for justice where it only concerns what we perceive as OUR group.

That's what they told Martin Luther King. But he persisted. Turns out, black folks matter just like anyone else. But they happened to be the ones being targeted. We've come a long way, but we aren't there yet.

As for the support of BLM, the schools have done their job in brainwashing children to believe that only blacks experience injustice at the hands of the police.

Not even BLM makes that claim. it's just something racists say to justify their anger at anyone who wants equal justice for everyone.

Which is why Americans support BLM; it's necessary if we are to ever solve the problem.
 
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Yehren

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Just to remind everyone, Civics 101, America is not a Protestant country; never was. It was founded on the idea that the government would stay completely out of religion, based on the observation of how horribly religious establishment went in Europe.

In that I would totally agree, and I must confess it isn't often I agree with a Catholic... No offense.
However...I would add a caveat...
The idea or concept of religious freedom, something that existed in Europe but only in isolated individuals, was not to be found in the church, in fact precisely the opposite, even as late as the 19th century when Pius expressed Catholic policy and Vatican thought very succinctly and clearly with his several denials of religious freedom in his syllabus of errors.

Catholics have been as bad as Protestants in that regard, yes. Even in early America, there were state laws that abridged our religious freedoms in favor of various Christian sects, and into the 20th century, such practices still could be found in places in the deep south of the United States. It would be wrong to assume that such behavior is an essential part of Protestant belief. Rather, it is a failure of Protestant believers to follow God and their own religion's ideals.

A number of Catholic articles since then could be cited as affirmation that the concept of religious freedom in the Catholic mind, at least until the mid 20th century, was only to upheld for itself, the idea being when in any country there would be a Catholic majority, religious freedom for others would only be toleration, and that only under certain conditions. I'm not completely certain that such a perspective has dramatically changed... Certainly not in the bowels of the Vatican.

You've been badly misled about that. Lumen Gentium, for example, openly praises other Christian sects as joined with us in the Holy Spirit. Vatican II very clearly restated the Church's position in 1965:

This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.
Vatican II on Religious Freedom


What "due limits?

Having fleshed out its principle of religious liberty, the Council turns to an explication of the limitations it has already mentioned: “The right to religious freedom is exercised in human society: hence its exercise is subject to certain regulatory norms.” First, all “are bound by the moral law to have respect both for the rights of others and for their own duties toward others and for the common welfare.” Second, “society has the right to defend itself against possible abuses committed on the pretext of freedom of religion.” Government should follow norms for this purpose which, far from being arbitrary, are drawn from the need to “safeguard the rights of all” and for “peaceful settlement of conflicts of rights”, for “adequate care of genuine public peace”, and from the need “for a proper guardianship of public morality.”
ibid.


But I suggest that Protestantism was the first to recognise it as a God given right, and certainly America the first to fully implement it.

It was first proposed by St. Augustine, before there were Protestants, and it was enlarged and further developed by St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century:

These policies did not go unchallenged. In the thirteenth century, Thomas Aquinas propounded a powerful but limited doctrine of freedom of conscience. Based upon the incompatibility of belief and coercion affirmed by the young Augustine, Thomas contended that all human beings, Christian or not, had a moral obligation to follow even an erroneous conscience. This principle applied to everyone never previously exposed to the Christian message, such as Muslims and pagans.
https://berkleycenter.georgetown.ed...us-freedom-in-the-medieval-period-476-1453-ce

However, neither of these men thought it extended to apostate Christians, equating that to breaking a solemn oath. That had to wait for the Enlightenment.
 

Brakelite

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The idea that it's wrong for police to go after black citizens just for being black, is what makes BLM go. And it's why BLM is supported by a majority of Americans.



It's not a nonissue if you happen to be a black male or have a black son. Then it's a constant worry. Imagine a black man, going out for a run at night. Turns out, part of that process is considering what clothing would be perceived as least threatening to white people. I had no idea, but it's true.



And that's the problem. It's not the same for everyone, and sometimes it gets innocent people killed.



That's what they told Martin Luther King. But he persisted. Turns out, black folks matter just like anyone else. But they happened to be the one's being targeted. We've come a long way, but we aren't there yet.



Not even BLM makes that claim. it's just something racists say to justify their anger at anyone who wants equal justice for everyone.

Which is why Americans support BLM; it's necessary if we are to ever solve the problem.
What Americans need to do is roundly and utterly reject the Marxist inspired BLM group, and stand behind every black and colored person in their neighborhood. Racism doesn't get fixed by renovating the house... It gets fixed by a heart transplant. And it starts with me.
 
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Yehren

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It should be noted that Thomas Jefferson's Virginia Statutes of Religious Freedoms, on which the Bill of Rights is based, used the same argument as St. Thomas Aquinas.
 

Yehren

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What Americans need to do is roundly and utterly reject the Marxist inspired BLM group

Well, let's take a look...

The Black Lives Matter movement, which is back in the headlines amid the nationwide protests, receives wide support. Two-thirds of U.S. adults say they support the movement, with 38% saying they strongly support it. This sentiment is particularly strong among black Americans, although majorities of white (60%), Hispanic (77%) and Asian (75%) Americans express at least some support.
upload_2020-7-19_9-31-40.png
Majorities Across Racial, Ethnic Groups Express Support for the Black Lives Matter Movement
 

Brakelite

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Just to remind everyone, Civics 101, America is not a Protestant country; never was. It was founded on the idea that the government would stay completely out of religion, based on the observation of how horribly religious establishment went in Europe.



Catholics have been as bad as Protestants in that regard, yes. Even in early America, there were state laws that abridged our religious freedoms in favor of various Christian sects, and into the 20th century, such practices still could be found in places in the deep south of the United States. It would be wrong to assume that such behavior is an essential part of Protestant belief. Rather, it is a failure of Protestant believers to follow God and their own religion's ideals.



You've been badly misled about that. Lumen Gentium, for example, openly praises other Christian sects as joined with us in the Holy Spirit. Vatican II very clearly restated the Church's position in 1965:

This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.
Vatican II on Religious Freedom


What "due limits?

Having fleshed out its principle of religious liberty, the Council turns to an explication of the limitations it has already mentioned: “The right to religious freedom is exercised in human society: hence its exercise is subject to certain regulatory norms.” First, all “are bound by the moral law to have respect both for the rights of others and for their own duties toward others and for the common welfare.” Second, “society has the right to defend itself against possible abuses committed on the pretext of freedom of religion.” Government should follow norms for this purpose which, far from being arbitrary, are drawn from the need to “safeguard the rights of all” and for “peaceful settlement of conflicts of rights”, for “adequate care of genuine public peace”, and from the need “for a proper guardianship of public morality.”
ibid.




It was first proposed by St. Augustine, before there were Protestants, and it was enlarged and further developed by St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century:

These policies did not go unchallenged. In the thirteenth century, Thomas Aquinas propounded a powerful but limited doctrine of freedom of conscience. Based upon the incompatibility of belief and coercion affirmed by the young Augustine, Thomas contended that all human beings, Christian or not, had a moral obligation to follow even an erroneous conscience. This principle applied to everyone never previously exposed to the Christian message, such as Muslims and pagans.
https://berkleycenter.georgetown.ed...us-freedom-in-the-medieval-period-476-1453-ce

However, neither of these men thought it extended to apostate Christians, equating that to breaking a solemn oath. That had to wait for the Enlightenment.
The inquisitions though were not directed solely at "apostate Christians". For example the Waldensian crusades and the inquisition at Goa among others. These people were Christians... They just didn't accept Papal authority.
And I have serious reservations concerning the following...
First, all “are bound by the moral law to have respect both for the rights of others and for their own duties toward others and for the common welfare.
Once any church has influence over government (note the current situation in the White House) , the common good can and does get interpreted in any number of ways. Take the following for example....
IMG_20200719_225843.jpg
Though this was about vaccinations, what "common good" was there with the New York archbishop's influence upon Washington with regards the war in Vietnam? 50,000 American lives lost to prop up a corrupt anti Buddhist Catholic regime in Saigon.
Then late in the 19th century it took impassioned pleas and determined remonstrance before the Senate to stop a Sunday law bill passing into legislation which would have spelt trouble for both sabbatarian Christians and Jew alike. And those old blue laws are still on the books in many states. What would be the result if the majority of Christians agreed that covid, or still future even more threatening danger to the "common good" , necessitated some action to a avert God's judgements ( and believe me, many Christians teach that covid...9/11... Civil unrest... War and other disasters are all expressions of God's anger on a falling corrupt secular society) ? And what if that action entailed the reestablishing of Sunday laws, something the pope today is and has encouraged in many countries in Europe? What of religious liberty then? What comes first z the "assumed common good" to save mankind from judgement, or individual religious freedom to worship according to the dictate if his own conscience and his reading of scripture?
 

Brakelite

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Well, let's take a look...

The Black Lives Matter movement, which is back in the headlines amid the nationwide protests, receives wide support. Two-thirds of U.S. adults say they support the movement, with 38% saying they strongly support it. This sentiment is particularly strong among black Americans, although majorities of white (60%), Hispanic (77%) and Asian (75%) Americans express at least some support.
View attachment 9941
Majorities Across Racial, Ethnic Groups Express Support for the Black Lives Matter Movement
I don't doubt the numbers... Well, maybe I do. Not sure. I think it more a reflection of the dumb mindset now so prevalent among younger Americans that accepts Marxist socialist philosophy as harmless and nothing to be feared. Oh, and the ignorance of the influence of people such as Soros etc al and their supporting of radical action groups throughout the world.
Back of this of course is a deeper agenda that plays off both sides against one another. The conflict itself is the goal... To set left and right against one another... Democrat v Republican... Conservative v liberal... Black v white... Gay v straight etc etc... Thesis v antithesis... And once the people throughout the land comes to the conclusion that they prefer the discomfort of unity more than the discomfort of division, then will be granted them from the generous and beneficent hand of whatever power has the majority mandate... Peace and safety... The synthesis. The mark of the beast... Religious coercion... And the complete dismantling if the constitution and bill of rights. Revelation 13 reveals it all and it's going to start in America. That "common good" is a Trojan horse for tyranny.
 

Yehren

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I don't doubt the numbers... Well, maybe I do. Not sure.

That's the disturbing thing about reality. It's remarkably resistant to disbelief.

I think it more a reflection of the dumb mindset now so prevalent among younger Americans that accepts Marxist socialist philosophy as harmless and nothing to be feared.

Or more likely, because the BLM statement of purpose has no Marxist ideology in it. One of those things.

Oh, and the ignorance of the influence of people such as Soros etc al and their supporting of radical action groups throughout the world.

The Soros/boogeyman stuff is pretty passe' by now. Most far-right guys have moved on from there.

Back of this of course is a deeper agenda that plays off both sides against one another. The conflict itself is the goal... To set left and right against one another... Democrat v Republican... Conservative v liberal... Black v white... Gay v straight etc etc... Thesis v antithesis... And once the people throughout the land comes to the conclusion that they prefer the discomfort of unity more than the discomfort of division, then will be granted them from the generous and beneficent hand of whatever power has the majority mandate... Peace and safety... The synthesis.

Americans do want less demonization and partisan strife. It's a rejection of extremism, and a desire for leaders who can unite, rather than divide. It's why voters unexpectedly moved to Biden. Biden's career has been a process of finding common ground among opposed groups. He's precisely the leader Americans are looking for.

The mark of the beast... Religious coercion... And the complete dismantling if the constitution and bill of rights.

Trump tried. But he failed. The Constitution won and he lost. His attempt to dismantle the Bill of Rights failed.
 
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Yehren

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The inquisitions though were not directed solely at "apostate Christians".

Nor were the Protestant inquistions, both of which simply attacked Christians of other denomnations. That's what I told you.

For example the Waldensian crusades

The Waldensians were Cathars, and yes apostates.

Cathar beliefs ultimately derived from the Persian religion of Manichaeism but directly from another earlier religious sect from Bulgaria known as the Bogomils who blended Manichaeism with Christianity.
Cathars


[And I have serious reservations concerning the following...[/QUOTE]

(mandatory vaccinations)

There's always the question of whether one has a right to swing one's arm. Depends where the other fellow's nose might be.
 

Yehren

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What Americans need to do is roundly and utterly reject the Marxist inspired BLM group

They roundly support BLM, partially because there are no Marxist elements in the BLM statement of purpose. You lost that war. Sorry.

Racism doesn't get fixed by renovating the house...

Desegregation and voting rights laws sure put a hurt in racism. So reality shows that you're completely wrong.

It gets fixed by a heart transplant.

We aren't going to fix every racist. Just not possible. But making it unprofitable to be a racist works, and it works really well. But firing/jailing/ demoting racist cops who let their racism lead them to commit crimes, has definitely made an impact.

And it's made things better for the majority of cops who don't commit crimes.
 
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69chapels

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(Coronavirus is the New Permanent Way of Life...we can only be sure once we see a full yearly season rotation cycle for the virus, we have not yet seen this)

Some statements are still true, and informational outlets are filtered:::

1. Mixed Population Countries have higher Covid-19 Rates
2. "Whites" (asian/cascausian), are impacted more by Covid-19, die more.

(the minority death rates are largely the same, they would still die the same rate regardless, if their deaths were attribute to Covid-19 or some other illness) (once we see a complete yearly seasonal cycle for the virus this completes our understanding of it's implications)
........................
(We talked about a major breakthrough for the Coronavirus)

We see Coronavirus attack the "5 Senses, Taste/Smell" ................ we don't see degeneration of the body, deterioration of flesh/blood, or a faster rate of euthanasia, for those heavily impacted. (it still takes many hours/dead for death at peak infection)

(minorities produce more children, migrate more to other countries, and death rates remain the same regardless of Covid-19)

People want to see, "Covid-19", isolated to or pinned, to darker skin, not just minorities. Furthermore, the modern answer to "spirituality/advanced theology/unorthodoxed theology/or culture conflicts/trend challenges".............for either "suicide pleasure", "or faith conflict of acknowledging a higher authority or accountability for sin, either generationally, or as a result of "work+faith" (in bad standing)..................has traditionally been emphasis on minorities, this is historical accurate.

Coronavirus will suddenly disappear, weather mankind acknowledges the argument or not, climate change magnetic field to biological fields are real and impactful...............lack of true unified association or quantification is also real and impactful.

Coronavirus will continue as mainstay and increase in intensity..................this is largely based on the four season observance of its initial and most active season, relative to appearance.

Everything will be resolved this year, 1290 and 1335 Days from Flight 370's disappearance, @ 12/21/2020, 153 days before the end, 5/21/2021.

(a judgement from god, or God's Mercies, may not be the most effective argument, other then external without mankind's direct knowledge of either a son of man, his appointment to authority, or any special actions from god..................if this is purely about "suicide pleasure"..................we may need to pause things for a while and let or try to contribute to coronavirus, see how much people are willing to suffer and die, for "dead flesh" rather then, exterminate it)

("Suicide Pleasure", man increasing suffers and dies, with no profit, its accusation with god for dead flesh)

(son of man acting after god acts with mass euthanasia, kills with first strike, and in geographic areas with "migration or death" clauses)

These are both valid and actionable, and require full assessment, in the near future. Reason this is said, I'll have to kill less people, and the number are high in what I'll have to kill, better sometimes to wait for a secondary mechanism to do the killing if this is only about "suicide pleasure" and it is, incest/rape/murder of my body and testimony is only training wheels. (some people believe, moses will wait for coronavirus to become more deadly and another calamity event, like comet, to avoid having to kill so many people himself, since this is not his accusation with god, dead flesh is humanities suicide pleasure accusation with god, all will be resolved soon)


(this process will only take a few more years, not that many, you do not have a "will to live", you do not have a will to be "faithful more then for suicide pleasure worship of dead flesh, those genetic lines") (you have the reward of false witnessing coming, NOTHING AT ALL, just more of your own suffering, no nothing otherwise)

(Nguyen Van Lem found grace with god by doing nothing at all, once I fully understand the accusation, I will do the same thing. You may have a dead body at best then, your pride and no signs, takes care of everything else...........this pattern is real and legal, and very likely also) (you still have until the end of this year, to obtain my dead body, in your suicide pleasure, incest, whatever else, but otherwise you should still be completely blind and lots of more self inflict suicide pleasure, everything is still good, as we've said, incest/rape/murder of my body and testimony is your gift from god, and I'll complete that accusation, watching you die like this and more abundantly, with "nothing at all happening".)


(at the vietnam memorial @ sutton and macdade blvd in folsom pa. not to far from my address, we should see for pleasure the authorities blow out my brains, or etc, maybe just an angry pleasure seeking group of people, this is still valid) (you may need to suffer very painfully for the next 20 or 30 years, maybe more, or there may never even be an, ensign of nations according to isaiah for this generation as it dies)
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Just to remind everyone, Civics 101, America is not a Protestant country; never was. It was founded on the idea that the government would stay completely out of religion, based on the observation of how horribly religious establishment went in Europe.
My dear Yehren, this is what you get for reading the revisionist history books. You need to read the REAL history of America.

The "religious establishment in Europe" that you speak of would be the monarchies, i.e. kings of queens. The problem was that when the ruler was Protestant, the Catholics suffered; when the ruler was Catholic, the Protestants suffered and suffered and suffered.... All of this began in the "Holy Roman Empire," which was man's ill-advised attempt to set up God's kingdom on earth as a political kingdom even though Jesus said that His kingdom was within (for now). Many early American immigrants were Protestants seeking religious freedom. They sought to worship God in their own way without being burned at the stake....

You are mistaken in your belief that America "was founded on the idea that the government stay completely out of religion." It's true that there was to be no state-sponsored religion, but government CANNOT stay completely out of religion. Look at the whole world! You will NOT see this anywhere. Religious beliefs determine culture, which includes jurisprudence. In Communist countries, atheism drives the culture. In Muslim countries, Islam drives the culture. The same is true in Buddhist and Hindu nations. America was settled by CHRISTIANS, and specifically by Protestants for the most part.

I appreciate this sentiment of former President Ronald Reagan: "The First Amendment of the Constitution was not written to protect the people from religion; that amendment was written to protect religion from government tyranny. . . But now we're told our children have no right to pray in school. Nonsense. The pendulum has swung too far toward intolerance against genuine religious freedom. It is time to redress the balance."

Founding Fathers' Quotes on Religion


George Washington
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty...

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
-Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever..."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Madison
4th U.S. President

"A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest while we are building ideal monuments of Renown and Bliss here we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven."
--Written to William Bradford on November 9, 1772,

John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President

"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

Source:
Hear the Founding Fathers Speak on Faith, Jesus, and the Bible

Need I quote more???
 
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Yehren

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Just to remind everyone, Civics 101, America is not a Protestant country; never was. It was founded on the idea that the government would stay completely out of religion, based on the observation of how horribly religious establishment went in Europe.

My dear Yehren, this is what you get for reading the revisionist history books.

Your belief that the founders were "revisionists" is absurd:

Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy. Propose a restoration of this primitive State in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks, many of them predict its downfall. On which Side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?
James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments

The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.
Thomas Jefferson Works 1851

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
Amendment I, The U.S. Bill of Rights

You need to read the REAL history of America.

You were easily duped because you read what some people wrote about the Founders. I'm showing you what the Founders themselves said.

Many early American immigrants were Protestants seeking religious freedom. They sought to worship God in their own way without being burned at the stake....

But of course, most of them were quite willing to kill anyone who didn't follow their own religious beliefs. Roger Williams and William Penn were two notable exceptions.

You are mistaken in your belief that America "was founded on the idea that the government stay completely out of religion."

Notice that's what the First Amendment says. Neither establishing religion, nor prohibiting free exercise of it. You don't like it; we get that. But that's the law. Here, Jefferson makes clear the intent of the First Amendment:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Danbury Baptists (my emphasis)

Jefferson, whose Virginia Statutes were the model for the First Amendment, makes it clear that it provides for "a wall of separation between church and state." No wiggle room there.

It's true that there was to be no state-sponsored religion, but government CANNOT stay completely out of religion.

The men who wrote the Constitution disagree with you.

I appreciate this sentiment of former President Ronald Reagan: "The First Amendment of the Constitution was not written to protect the people from religion;

Reagan was wrong, as Jefferson pointed out. The amendment clear prevents establishment in any way. We have both freedom from religion (first clause) and freedom of religion (second clause).

But now we're told our children have no right to pray in school.

Don't try that one on me. My daughter was an officer in the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. She and her friends prayed in school frequently. They just didn't try to impose it on anyone else, and no representative of the district organized it. So perfectly legal. C'mon.

(lots of founder quotes about the value of religion, some of them in favor of Christianity)

Need I quote more???

All you need is one that shows the founders opposed to the wall of separation between church and state in the First Amendment. How could so many founders be in favor of religion, mostly Christian religion, while still banning any role in religion for government?

Look above. They saw what happened in Europe and wanted none of it. So they decided that "they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."

Instead of reading your revisionist tracts, read what the Founders actually said.
 

Prayer Warrior

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Your belief that the founders were "revisionists" is absurd:
You misunderstood me. I said that YOU have been reading revisionist history, where the truth about our Christian heritage is excluded from the later history books, meaning those which have been revised.

Before you say that I don't know what I'm talking about concerning American history, I taught Early American history as a public school teacher (back when our Christian
heritage was still being taught). I also took graduate courses in history as part of a Masters program. (I was 4 classes short of getting that degree before moving out-of-state.)
 
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Brakelite

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The Waldensians were Cathars, and yes apostates.

Cathar beliefs ultimately derived from the Persian religion of Manichaeism but directly from another earlier religious sect from Bulgaria known as the Bogomils who blended Manichaeism with Christianity.
Cathars
The Waldensians were not Cathars. And they were not apostate Catholics. They were never at any time under the authority of the bishop of Rome. They were from the beginning Bible believing Christians and their Bibles were copied from the peshitta ...the original Italic... Not Jerome's or Constantine's version. The Italic came from the original documents copied by the Christians after escaping Jerusalem. The first churches then established were at Pete's and Antioch. And those copies going their way throughout Asia and the Assyrian churches, the Waldensian churches of the Piedmont, the Albigenses of France, the Celtic churches of Britain. Those copies became the basis of Bibles translated into other languages and taken by missionaries back into Germany and Scandinavia by people such as Columba and Columbanus and was the basis for the KJV. Those people groups who accepted Christ throughout Asia, eastern Europe, India, and the far east etc were genuine Bible believing Christians. Just because the Popes were jealous and condemned them as apostates doesn't mean you have to follow his lying example.
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