Does anyone want to compare Old Testament Prophecy to Revelation?

[laBonhomme]

Just out of social curiosity, I'm interested in asking your personal opinions on a subject that I've never heard anyone at all go into. There are a number of denominations and pastors local to me and on broadcast channels who have a good tight package, they run the Old Testament prophecy series over and over, and they have a series of Major Prophet based proofs that Jesus was the promised Messiah. The more evangelical the church, the more they engage in pulpit discourse on Revelation, which is also prophetic, but different from that of Isaiah for example, because in Isaiah Jesus had not yet come, and in Revelation He had already ascended. Just metaphysically, because the two revelatory experiences have to be different, comparing an Old Testament scribe to a New Testament evangelist who had met Him face to face to specifically John the Revelator, who saw Him in prophetic vision after HIs assentation, I can't imagine that a real spiritual difference didn't exist in prophetic experience before and after the Incarnation.

If someone theologically inclined understands that difference, I bet a lot of real hot point axes of debate would be squared up considerably. One that I can think of is of is the tribulation, another is the rapture, another is the seven last plagues. The mark of the beast seems like it would benefit from a rational lining up of human understandings vis the divine before and after the Life of Christ on Earth.

Finally, how do think that prophetic knowledge is qualitatively different from apostolic knowledge? How can you tell, do you get a different prayerful sense from the written gospels than you do from the epistles of the apostles and the Old Testament seers, or what?

 

[ewq1938]

Just out of social curiosity, I'm interested in asking your personal opinions on a subject that I've never heard anyone at all go into. There are a number of denominations and pastors local to me and on broadcast channels who have a good tight package, they run the Old Testament prophecy series over and over, and they have a series of Major Prophet based proofs that Jesus was the promised Messiah. The more evangelical the church, the more they engage in pulpit discourse on Revelation, which is also prophetic, but different from that of Isaiah for example, because in Isaiah Jesus had not yet come, and in Revelation He had already ascended. Just metaphysically, because the two revelatory experiences have to be different, comparing an Old Testament scribe to a New Testament evangelist who had met Him face to face to specifically John the Revelator, who saw Him in prophetic vision after HIs assentation, I can't imagine that a real spiritual difference didn't exist in prophetic experience before and after the Incarnation.

This may not be what you are looking for but I know of some OT prophecies that do not match up with NT prophecies of the same basic nature. I believe many OT prophecies were tied to the OT covenant and when that was replaced, some prophecies/events changed as well. Most try to harmonize Ot and NT prophecies but some simply do not match, even contradict completely.

 

[quietthinker]

Just out of social curiosity, I'm interested in asking your personal opinions on a subject that I've never heard anyone at all go into. There are a number of denominations and pastors local to me and on broadcast channels who have a good tight package, they run the Old Testament prophecy series over and over, and they have a series of Major Prophet based proofs that Jesus was the promised Messiah. The more evangelical the church, the more they engage in pulpit discourse on Revelation, which is also prophetic, but different from that of Isaiah for example, because in Isaiah Jesus had not yet come, and in Revelation He had already ascended. Just metaphysically, because the two revelatory experiences have to be different, comparing an Old Testament scribe to a New Testament evangelist who had met Him face to face to specifically John the Revelator, who saw Him in prophetic vision after HIs assentation, I can't imagine that a real spiritual difference didn't exist in prophetic experience before and after the Incarnation.

If someone theologically inclined understands that difference, I bet a lot of real hot point axes of debate would be squared up considerably. One that I can think of is of is the tribulation, another is the rapture, another is the seven last plagues. The mark of the beast seems like it would benefit from a rational lining up of human understandings vis the divine before and after the Life of Christ on Earth.

Finally, how do think that prophetic knowledge is qualitatively different from apostolic knowledge? How can you tell, do you get a different prayerful sense from the written gospels than you do from the epistles of the apostles and the Old Testament seers, or what?

It seems none of the Prophets had envisaged God's solution to the sin problem. I think even the angels were gobsmacked by the slaughtered lamb shown by John to be in the middle of the Throne......subsequently the periods of silence in heaven.

Additionally, it occurred to no-one in the Hebrew economy that the sacrifices they practised for millennia had any connection with the Messiah.

Understanding their lack of insight and the benefit of hindsight for God's people post resurrection would be a good reason to understand why the OT prophets wrote much of what they wrote. If we do not factor this in to our reading we walk at worst with both eyes closed or at best with one eye closed.

 

[Keraz]

I can't imagine that a real spiritual difference didn't exist in prophetic experience before and after the Incarnation.

But I can. The Prophetic Word is a coherent and logical progression of events, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millenium reign and after that; comes Eternity. The Old Testament and the New, have the same value.
God's 7000 year Plan for mankind is playing out as He wanted it to and the result will be His desire:- for a group of humans, Created with a free will, who have freely chosen to believe in Him and have accepted the Salvation offered by Jesus.

The whole story of mankind, viewed with the end result in mind, shows the amazing set up, the cleverly arranged events and the incredible outcome of some humans receiving immortality.

We people today, are living at a pivotal point in God's Plan. Soon to commence will be the things so vividly described in Revelation, from Rev 6:12 to the end.
The next Prophesied event will be the Sixth Seal, a worldwide disaster of a similar magnitude to the Flood in Noah's time. It is comprehensively Prophesied in every book of the Prophets, Ot and NT, except Jonah.
We Christians, Bible believers; should be aware and prepared for this forthcoming sudden and shocking reset of our civilization, but widespread belief in false theories and mis-interpretations of the Prophesies, people have confused themselves and the Lord has placed a spirit of the inability on them. to understand what will happen. Isaiah 29:9-12

Several scriptures say that it will be only after this earth shaking event, that most will finally understand. Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 29:18, Isaiah 32:3-4

Most try to harmonize Ot and NT prophecies but some simply do not match, even contradict completely.

Thinking the Bible has contradictions, simply means that your understanding is wrong.

It seems none of the Prophets had envisaged God's solution to the sin problem.

Isaiah 53, Ezekiel 28:11-19, Micah 7:18-20, +

 

[quietthinker]

Isaiah 53, Ezekiel 28:11-19, Micah 7:18-20, +

Yes, they wrote of it but didn't understand it. That becomes obvious by other things they expressed or did......and further, as I said previously, the connection was never made by the religious professionals.
On various levels today the connection is also not made, subsequently the multitude of interpretations re end time events

 

[laBonhomme]

This may not be what you are looking for but I know of some OT prophecies that do not match up with NT prophecies of the same basic nature. I believe many OT prophecies were tied to the OT covenant and when that was replaced, some prophecies/events changed as well. Most try to harmonize Ot and NT prophecies but some simply do not match, even contradict completely.

I think what I'm really trying to get at religiously is the fact that even though Old Testament major prophet's predictions about the Messiah match events during the lifetime of Christ, and his characteristics harmonize with the prophecies, it's not the fact that things play out that prove that He is the foretold coming messiah, it's his actions and teaching. A lot of people say that because He was crucified, that fulfills the prophecy. Other people had been crucified before, and other people have been crucified since. Isaiah foretold a time of hardship for Israel when He would be born, Israel had experienced hard times before in Egypt and the wilderness, and at the time of Isaiah himself as well.

It's not that Jesus was a learned Jew or descendent of David that makes him the one, and it's not the fact that Persia and Babylon, constant perennial enemies of Egypt were operating against the nation at the time that makes Hime the Messiah, it's His personal identity.

 

[laBonhomme]

But I can. The Prophetic Word is a coherent and logical progression of events, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millenium reign and after that; comes Eternity. The Old Testament and the New, have the same value.
God's 7000 year Plan for mankind is playing out as He wanted it to and the result will be His desire:- for a group of humans, Created with a free will, who have freely chosen to believe in Him and have accepted the Salvation offered by Jesus.

The whole story of mankind, viewed with the end result in mind, shows the amazing set up, the cleverly arranged events and the incredible outcome of some humans receiving immortality.

We people today, are living at a pivotal point in God's Plan. Soon to commence will be the things so vividly described in Revelation, from Rev 6:12 to the end.
The next Prophesied event will be the Sixth Seal, a worldwide disaster of a similar magnitude to the Flood in Noah's time. It is comprehensively Prophesied in every book of the Prophets, Ot and NT, except Jonah.
We Christians, Bible believers; should be aware and prepared for this forthcoming sudden and shocking reset of our civilization, but widespread belief in false theories and mis-interpretations of the Prophesies, people have confused themselves and the Lord has placed a spirit of the inability on them. to understand what will happen. Isaiah 29:9-12

Several scriptures say that it will be only after this earth shaking event, that most will finally understand. Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 29:18, Isaiah 32:3-4

Thinking the Bible has contradictions, simply means that your understanding is wrong.

Isaiah 53, Ezekiel 28:11-19, Micah 7:18-20, +

You see prophecies as having not changed from Old Testament to New Testament writers? Maybe not in spirit, but in substance they have. Isaiah was extremely detailed in his foretelling of the birth of Jesus. He didn't give a date, but he talked about both the moral character of Israel and the conditions it would be in civilly, relative to its nearby half-brother relations the Ishmaelites. That's Old Testament. Jesus prophesied of His death, resurrection, and assentation, and His return after a time of preparation with His father in Heaven. It's the same kind of prophecy, but it is a prophecy of a separate event. Where Isaiah compared the time of Christ's birth to the looming Babylonian invasion of his own day, Jesus speaks of events at the time of His second coming in terms of the pre flood days of Noah. Those are some of the differences I see between the two.

 

[Truth7t7]

But I can. The Prophetic Word is a coherent and logical progression of events, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus for His Millenium reign and after that; comes Eternity. The Old Testament and the New, have the same value.
God's 7000 year Plan for mankind is playing out as He wanted it to and the result will be His desire:- for a group of humans, Created with a free will, who have freely chosen to believe in Him and have accepted the Salvation offered by Jesus.

The whole story of mankind, viewed with the end result in mind, shows the amazing set up, the cleverly arranged events and the incredible outcome of some humans receiving immortality.

We people today, are living at a pivotal point in God's Plan. Soon to commence will be the things so vividly described in Revelation, from Rev 6:12 to the end.
The next Prophesied event will be the Sixth Seal, a worldwide disaster of a similar magnitude to the Flood in Noah's time. It is comprehensively Prophesied in every book of the Prophets, Ot and NT, except Jonah.
We Christians, Bible believers; should be aware and prepared for this forthcoming sudden and shocking reset of our civilization, but widespread belief in false theories and mis-interpretations of the Prophesies, people have confused themselves and the Lord has placed a spirit of the inability on them. to understand what will happen. Isaiah 29:9-12

Several scriptures say that it will be only after this earth shaking event, that most will finally understand. Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 29:18, Isaiah 32:3-4

Thinking the Bible has contradictions, simply means that your understanding is wrong.

Isaiah 53, Ezekiel 28:11-19, Micah 7:18-20, +

There won't be a 1,000 year millennial reign on this earth when Jesus returns as you continue to claim over and over again

As you have been shown "Numerous Times" Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[ewq1938]

There won't be a 1,000 year millennial reign on this earth when Jesus returns as you continue to claim over and over again

There will be, mentioned multiple times in Rev20.

 

[Truth7t7]

There will be, mentioned multiple times in Rev20.

Not one place does it show a literal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth with mortal humans present in Rev 20 as you claim

You will closely note you gave no response to Jesus returning in fire and judgment in post #8 "Why"?

Big Smiles!

 

[ewq1938]

Not one place does it show a literal 1,000 year kingdom on this earth with mortal humans present in Rev 20 as you claim

It does in Rev 20:8, which is after the thousand years has ended. The people there lived in the Millennial kingdom. For Amill that kingdom is now and for Premill it is future.

You will closely note you gave no response to Jesus returning in fire and judgment in post #8 "Why"?

Because he does but Rev 2 and 19 tell us the rule over the nations takes place AFTER the Coming, which proves mortals remain alive after that Coming which proves a huge chunk of Amill to be unscriptural because it claims none survive the Coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

It does in Rev 20:8, which is after the thousand years has ended. The people there lived in the Millennial kingdom. For Amill that kingdom is now and for Premill it is future.



Because he does but Rev 2 and 19 tell us the rule over the nations takes place AFTER the Coming, which proves mortals remain alive after that Coming which proves a huge chunk of Amill to be unscriptural because it claims none survive the Coming.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Keraz]

Those are some of the differences I see between the two.

How does some Prophesies in the OT about Jesus' Advent and some in the NT, of His death and Ascencion, create a 'difference'?
Actually Prophesies about both events are in both Testaments.

Anyway, what we are discussing on this Forum, is End Times events, which are throughout the Bible. I assume that is why we are all here.
With the proliferation of theories, ideas, opinions and wild guesses on what God has planned for our future, it is rather daunting. However, Daniel 12:10 does say that a few wise people will understand the Prophesies, close to the time when it will take place.

Strive to be among them!

 

[ewq1938]

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

So you think Sodom will be destroyed again (and no other city) at the Coming? You once again disprove the concept of a global slaughter invented by Amill which is fully unscriptural. Even a prooftext of Amill proves the idea to be false. Keep using it. It only shows how Amill does not understand scripture.

 

[Zao is life]

I think what I'm really trying to get at religiously is the fact that even though Old Testament major prophet's predictions about the Messiah match events during the lifetime of Christ, and his characteristics harmonize with the prophecies, it's not the fact that things play out that prove that He is the foretold coming messiah, it's his actions and teaching. A lot of people say that because He was crucified, that fulfills the prophecy. Other people had been crucified before, and other people have been crucified since. Isaiah foretold a time of hardship for Israel when He would be born, Israel had experienced hard times before in Egypt and the wilderness, and at the time of Isaiah himself as well.

It's not that Jesus was a learned Jew or descendent of David that makes him the one, and it's not the fact that Persia and Babylon, constant perennial enemies of Egypt were operating against the nation at the time that makes Hime the Messiah, it's His personal identity.

There's one thing I've learned from studying the Revelation in depth:

It's absolutely packed with types and antitypes.

The type is always found in the Old Testament.

@laBonhomme Yes to the title:

Does anyone want to compare Old Testament Prophecy to Revelation?​

Yes, because aside from the types, passages like Ezekiel 36-39 (and many others) compared to the Revelation are confusing to me.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Just out of social curiosity, I'm interested in asking your personal opinions on a subject that I've never heard anyone at all go into...

Yes, it's a good subject. I do think you will find there are a good number of places where OT/NT differences are dealt with in terms of prophecy. However, I don't think it is often on the most popular venues.

If someone theologically inclined understands that difference, I bet a lot of real hot point axes of debate would be squared up considerably. One thAat I can think of is of is the tribulation, another is the rapture, another is the seven last plagues. The mark of the beast seems like it would benefit from a rational lining up of human understandings vis the divine before and after the Life of Christ on Earth.

Finally, how do think that prophetic knowledge is qualitatively different from apostolic knowledge? How can you tell, do you get a different prayerful sense from the written gospels than you do from the epistles of the apostles and the Old Testament seers, or what?

I don't think the NT prophetic events, such as the Tribulation and Rapture, are to be differentiated from OT prophecy since they were foretold in OT prophecy. Jesus was in the OT era when he predicted the coming of the Son of Man to sweep up Israeli saints in order to restore the nation. The catching up of Enoch and Elijah were clearly OT. With respect to the Tribulation, aka the Reign of Antichrist, that was foretold in the book of Daniel, there is no discernible difference OT and NT. But there is a difference, as you allude to, and that has to do with the NT mysteries of the Church.

To the history of Mankind there is a subset of history, known as Redemption History. In the OT era it began with the Law as a pre-redemptive nationalistic/ethnic program preparing for ultimate redemption, which happens in two stages. The Law was given exclusively to Israel as a temporary form of redemption meant to prepare for 1st legal redemption and then complete redemption. Christ 1st gives God a promissory note on our behalf, and later, we are able to cash in on his agreement for a new immortal body and a paradisical earth.

The mysteries associated with the end of Israel's Law and with the end of Israel's exclusivity was actually anticipated and foretold in the OT era, when God made His promises to Abraham. It concerned both the nation and the expansion of the nation into many nations of faith. As such, international Christianity was anticipated even though for Israel at the time of Messiah's coming, the majority of that nation remained blind to change in redemptive status.

Messiah came to show God's rejection of the majority in Israel who turned to apostasy. It was to show God's intent to grant immediate and future mercy to those who repent, while at the same time granting grace for other nations to experience God's redemptive program, even though they had been as guilty of paganism as Israel had been.

So we don't have an inconsistency nor an anachronism between OT and NT. Rather, we have a linear history replete with a crossroads, showing the division in humanity between those in need of grace and those who reject it.

 

[laBonhomme]

It seems none of the Prophets had envisaged God's solution to the sin problem. I think even the angels were gobsmacked by the slaughtered lamb shown by John to be in the middle of the Throne......subsequently the periods of silence in heaven.

Additionally, it occurred to no-one in the Hebrew economy that the sacrifices they practised for millennia had any connection with the Messiah.

Understanding their lack of insight and the benefit of hindsight for God's people post resurrection would be a good reason to understand why the OT prophets wrote much of what they wrote. If we do not factor this in to our reading we walk at worst with both eyes closed or at best with one eye closed.

You read the Bible as containing a plan on God's part to "solve the sin problem". Why is that? I read the Bible as an operation by God to descend from Heaven and spiritually advance in a plan to retake planetary territory from Lucifer. The doctrine of forgiveness comes up, and while forgiveness does not solve the fall of Satan, it is required for believers if they will be saved at the end of time.

I don't see the last judgement as a "solution to the sin problem", what is your justification for looking at it that way? After the last judgement Satan and demons will be "cast into a lake of fire or pit; destroyed". Individual people will either be saved, and live in Heaven, or lost to some other fate (eternal death, Hell).

You're going to get a final republican trail at the second coming on the last day of astronomical time, and you'll be either executed or pardoned. That's not a moral solution to the sin problem, that's cosmology.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You read the Bible as containing a plan on God's part to "solve the sin problem". Why is that? I read the Bible as an operation by God to descend from Heaven and spiritually advance in a plan to retake planetary territory from Lucifer. The doctrine of forgiveness comes up, and while forgiveness does not solve the fall of Satan, it is required for believers if they will be saved at the end of time.

I don't see the last judgement as a "Ssolution to the sin problem", what is your justification for looking at it that way? After the last judgement Satan and demons will be "cast into a lake of fire or pit; destroyed". Individual people will either be saved, and live in Heaven,

Interesting! Sin is certainly a problem that is in a sense being "resolved." But it seems to be more of a long judicial process than a "problem" to be immediately fixed. Clearly, God is in no hurry to "fix" any particular problem.

So, resolving things judiciously seems to be God's aim, since He's factored into the resolution all kinds of time and processes. It may be sort of like getting fishing line all tied up in knots. If you want to save the line, there are 2 possible solutions. You either cut the line and throw away the tangle, or you unravel the knot a little at a time.

I see history as the 2nd option, gradually unravelling the infection of demonic sin that has been inserted into Man. The poison cannot really be removed until death, but until we die there are mitigating processes taking place that unravel the knots.

One of the major problems is selfishness. And so, the 1st item to be dealt with was nationalistic pride, having begun with only one nation, Israel, separated from all the rest, if even for justifiable reasons. Some separated out of pride and arrogance, while others separated out of loyalty to God over the pull towards paganism.

I have to say that even though Man failed in Eden, God cannot fail. His Word and His Promises can prevail through mercy that God has added to His Word. The world must be filled with people made in the image of God who actually exemplify God's image. This is the process being recovered.

Since God had no interest in throwing away Israel, the nation He started with, He had to unravel the problem of national sin by unravelling the issues over time, as the nation grew and experienced growing pains.

I suppose I could explain it like this: Israel has had, in history, a long timeline, comparable to a fish line. That line as it has extended from family to tribes to nation has unavoidably gotten tangled in sin, in selfishness, and part of the tangle has had to be cut out.

Each stage saw 2 elements of people, one choosing for the wrong reasons and the other choosing for the right reasons. Some chose to obey God's Law for selfish reasons, and some chose to obey God for the right reasons.

Part of the historical process has been exposing these things so that they would be properly manifested and judged as such. This division between the godly and the ungodly among God's People is evident throughout the biblical narrative. And each time, those who fail are given opportunity to become disentangled from sin and recovered through their repentance and God's accompanying mercy. Those who resist God's mercy are at some point cut out.

But the whole reel of line would have had to be cut away unless God provided for mercy, for unraveling some of the tangled line, instead of just cutting it out. And so, as Israel entered into her final stage of national failure, mercy reached its full potential, allowing grace to be extended to the whole nation in its final apostacy. And this made way for all pagan nations, in the hopes that they too will choose rightly.

Difficult to say, but I'm doing my best...

 

[laBonhomme]

Interesting! Sin is certainly a problem that is in a sense being "resolved." But it seems to be more of a long judicial process than a "problem" to be immediately fixed. Clearly, God is in no hurry to "fix" any particular problem.

So, resolving things judiciously seems to be God's aim, since He's factored into the resolution all kinds of time and processes. It may be sort of like getting fishing line all tied up in knots. If you want to save the line, there are 2 possible solutions. You either cut the line and throw away the tangle, or you unravel the knot a little at a time.

I see history as the 2nd option, gradually unravelling the infection of demonic sin that has been inserted into Man. The poison cannot really be removed until death, but until we die there are mitigating processes taking place that unravel the knots.

One of the major problems is selfishness. And so, the 1st item to be dealt with was nationalistic pride, having begun with only one nation, Israel, separated from all the rest, if even for justifiable reasons. Some separated out of pride and arrogance, while others separated out of loyalty to God over the pull towards paganism.

Since God had no interest in throwing away the nation, He had to unravel the problem of national sin by unravelling the issues over time, as the nation grew and experience growing pains. I can't begin to explain how this might be said presently, but that's how I see it.

There's a lot more to Christianity than Israeli nationalism, although I see what you mean. The political power struggle is between Herod Agrippa and Jesus of Nazareth, who Matthew chapter one has it is the legal descendent of David in line for rulership. Religiously, Jesus also says at the temple, after reading from Isaiah, that He is the Messiah who came to fulfil the prophecy. He was thought a disappointment by the Zelotes, who wanted to fight in a national war with the messiah as their leader.

In spite of the fact that Jesus was certainly from Israel, it isn't just about Jerusalem. Christianity isn't exactly profound unless it addresses the whole world, as hinted at in the Genesis flood narrative and the prophecies of the second coming and end of the world in the gospels and revelation.

Hebrew nationalists are kind of humanist and modernist, I get it, because the savior was born in their country and the holocaust happened just last century, but it's not only about Israel. Actually, it isn't even only about Adam, Eve, Cain, and the fallen race, it's a spiritual story and the conflict is between angels. Spiritual beings, both good and evil.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There's a lot more to Christianity than Israeli nationalism, although I see what you mean. The political power struggle is between Herod Agrippa and Jesus of Nazareth, who Matthew chapter one has it is the legal descendent of David in line for rulership. Religiously, Jesus also says at the temple, after reading from Isaiah, that He is the Messiah who came to fulfil the prophecy. He was thought a disappointment by the Zelotes, who wanted to fight in a national war with the messiah as their leader.

In spite of the fact that Jesus was certainly from Israel, it isn't just about Jerusalem. Christianity isn't exactly profound unless it addresses the whole world, as hinted at in the Genesis flood narrative and the prophecies of the second coming and end of the world in the gospels and revelation.

Hebrew nationalists are kind of humanist and modernist, I get it, because the savior was born in their country and the holocaust happened just last century, but it's not only about Israel. Actually, it isn't even only about Adam, Eve, Cain, and the fallen race, it's a spiritual story and the conflict is between angels. Spiritual beings, both good and evil.

Sorry brother, I've had to amend the previous post of mine, because in re-reading I felt I had more to explain. Anyway, with respect to your comment here, I would have to say I get what you're saying, that universal realities are more spiritual than the particulars.

At the same time, I can't throw away the particulars entirely. They fail only to the degree they violate the principle of applying God's mercy. In accepting God's mercy, the particulars such as Israel, Jerusalem, ethnicity, nationality, and international distinctions become important again. You'll have to re-read my amended post above to understand.