Does anyone want to compare Old Testament Prophecy to Revelation?

[Davy]

You're wrongly assuming that I was referencing "The Book of Enoch" just because I know Enoch's name. I'd lower myself to the gutter standards of everyone else on the forum and mock you for knowing that the thing even exists, but I live in the world too and I've heard of it myself.

You guys are strange. I mean it's nice that you're all really careful to just quote texts and verses, but somehow, I just can't help but think that mixing scripture reference with absolutely anything and everything else that's also online, simply because you are online, and the bulletin board is also online causes a few too many non sequitur statements around the text boxes.

What is it with everyone else, I can compose a paragraph that contains a complete original idea, everyone else seems to just throw up a verse and then start making personal comments on the basis of them.

I really don't care what your were trying... to refer to. I WAS... referring to the Book of Enoch which Enoch originally wrote (not the one in print today, but the version which Jude was quoting in the Book of Jude).

 

[No Pre-TB]

What is it with everyone else, I can compose a paragraph that contains a complete original idea, everyone else seems to just throw up a verse and then start making personal comments on the basis of them

Sad but true. There is contention with opposing views and though many feel justified to protect what they feel are the Bible’s original meaning, many are babes in Christ, even those with 30-50 years in. It’s this reason we have bickering, slander, child like play and the result never ends well. I’m sure our Lord does not want this. Too many here think they have all the answers and too many here want to teach their doctrine before listening. Sometimes I don’t respond not because I have nothing to say or biblical verses to back it up, but sometimes it’s better to walk away when the other person shows no desire to listen or to search it out.

 

[Davy]

You're wrongly assuming that I was referencing "The Book of Enoch" just because I know Enoch's name. I'd lower myself to the gutter standards of everyone else on the forum and mock you for knowing that the thing even exists, but I live in the world too and I've heard of it myself.

You guys are strange. I mean it's nice that you're all really careful to just quote texts and verses, but somehow, I just can't help but think that mixing scripture reference with absolutely anything and everything else that's also online, simply because you are online, and the bulletin board is also online causes a few too many non sequitur statements around the text boxes.

What is it with everyone else, I can compose a paragraph that contains a complete original idea, everyone else seems to just throw up a verse and then start making personal comments on the basis of them

Sad but true. There is contention with opposing views and though many feel justified to protect what they feel are the Bible’s original meaning, many are babes in Christ, even those with 30-50 years in. It’s this reason we have bickering, slander, child like play and the result never ends well. I’m sure our Lord does not want this. Too many here think they have all the answers and too many here want to teach their doctrine before listening. Sometimes I don’t respond not because I have nothing to say or biblical verses to back it up, but sometimes it’s better to walk away when the other person shows no desire to listen or to search it out.

It's those who THINK... they came up with an "original idea"... that tend to CONFUSE the simplicity of Bible Scripture. Those are after their own fame, and not doing it for the sake of God's Truth in His Word. And they are 'easy' to spot today for those who do study their Bible.

 

[No Pre-TB]

It's those who THINK... they came up with an "original idea"... that tend to CONFUSE the simplicity of Bible Scripture. Those are after their own fame, and not doing it for the sake of God's Truth in His Word. And they are 'easy' to spot today for those who do study their Bible.

There are some who do confuse the simplicity of the Bible. I’m in full agreement with you there. I only posted to him because too many times there is fighting, arguing and words used that arnt loving. Our flesh gets the better of us and I hate that

 

[ScottA]

Just out of social curiosity, I'm interested in asking your personal opinions on a subject that I've never heard anyone at all go into. There are a number of denominations and pastors local to me and on broadcast channels who have a good tight package, they run the Old Testament prophecy series over and over, and they have a series of Major Prophet based proofs that Jesus was the promised Messiah. The more evangelical the church, the more they engage in pulpit discourse on Revelation, which is also prophetic, but different from that of Isaiah for example, because in Isaiah Jesus had not yet come, and in Revelation He had already ascended. Just metaphysically, because the two revelatory experiences have to be different, comparing an Old Testament scribe to a New Testament evangelist who had met Him face to face to specifically John the Revelator, who saw Him in prophetic vision after HIs assentation, I can't imagine that a real spiritual difference didn't exist in prophetic experience before and after the Incarnation.

If someone theologically inclined understands that difference, I bet a lot of real hot point axes of debate would be squared up considerably. One that I can think of is of is the tribulation, another is the rapture, another is the seven last plagues. The mark of the beast seems like it would benefit from a rational lining up of human understandings vis the divine before and after the Life of Christ on Earth.

Finally, how do think that prophetic knowledge is qualitatively different from apostolic knowledge? How can you tell, do you get a different prayerful sense from the written gospels than you do from the epistles of the apostles and the Old Testament seers, or what?

This is another defining point of Paul's comment, saying, "but each one in his own order"...which only eludes to all that his comment entails.

In other words, yes, each generation, and yes, those of old and those of these times following the coming of Christ each are spoken to--as it is with tongues--in their own language or understanding. This I know personally by my own salvation experience: Being caught up in the spirit, the image of God was given to me in the only way I would understand--as my own natural father at the top of the stairway to heaven receiving babes wrapped in little white blankets (from my own hands). It was not until after the experience and reading the Bible, that I understood that my father above the earth in the heavens (in my own way of understanding)...was "our Father who art in heaven."

As for the Old Testament and Revelation, yes, the old was giving in a way they would begin to understand, and Revelation was the events as they occurred in heaven.

 

[laBonhomme]

The fact that some Theosophical scribe typed up a "Book of Enoch" and put it in print in no way proves that it's a valid book. The Bible says that Enoch was translated; Enoch is mentioned again by other writers in the canon. That does not constitute a metaphysical proof that the real prophet Enoch, who was translated according to the Torah, is the author of it!

Don't tell me that you actually believe in channeling! Whoever wrote that toss off was tripping on acid and playing with a Ouija Board.

 

[ewq1938]

The fact that some Theosophical scribe typed up a "Book of Enoch" and put it in print in no way proves that it's a valid book. The Bible says that Enoch was translated; Enoch is mentioned again by other writers in the canon. That does not constitute a metaphysical proof that the real prophet Enoch, who was translated according to the Torah, is the author of it!

Being translated does not mean you cannot write a book and give it to people. John was taken to heaven and other places and while there he wrote things in a book.


Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

He will be writing in this book while he is in heaven and other places and witnessing many things.

Rev_10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

He was not to write about what the seven thunders uttered but he wrote of many other things. He would bring this book back with him to write the book of Revelation. Think of his writing as notes to be used later.

Rev_21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Amen.

 

[laBonhomme]

Being translated does not mean you cannot write a book and give it to people. John was taken to heaven and other places and while there he wrote things in a book.


Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

He will be writing in this book while he is in heaven and other places and witnessing many things.

Rev_10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

He was not to write about what the seven thunders uttered but he wrote of many other things. He would bring this book back with him to write the book of Revelation. Think of his writing as notes to be used later.

Rev_21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Amen.

It sounds like you believe that Jesu wrote the Book of Revelation. Are you absolutely certain that it was not John, to whom He appeared in a vision, who write the book? Well, if you do, then how do you explain the fact that John introduces it by describing his circumstances on Patmos and sates clearly that he was taken up in a vision? Describe that to me, metaphysically I mean, I terms of literally real actual spiritually solid substance, including vector calculus related to Heaven and Earth locations.

Really. Just explain that, because most people I know have the theological outlook that "God wrote or at least inspired the Bible", but at the same time a lot of those people are Christians, and they don't seem to have any manuscripts handwritten by Jesus of Nazareth, who they assume is God in the flesh. Yall rely on the testimony of the apostles. Let's hear what your reasoning is on all of this.

English language notice: metaphysics is the descriptive language of real spiritual substance, for example the bodies of angels and the throne room inside of edificial or architectural new Jerusalem. Theology is logic, employed on the basis of metaphysical outlines, descriptions, and proofs of the ontological status of the metaphysical people, places, things, and ideas.

 

[ewq1938]

It sounds like you believe that Jesu wrote the Book of Revelation. Are you absolutely certain that it was not John, to whom He appeared in a vision, who write the book?

I said John wrote Rev. The whole point of my post and cited verses was to show that John wrote it and was writing while he saw things in heaven. How did you miss that?

Yall rely on the testimony of the apostles.

All Christians do. You aren't a Christian? Do you deny the bible?

 

[laBonhomme]

I said John wrote Rev. The whole point of my post and cited verses was to show that John wrote it and was writing while he saw things in heaven. How did you miss that?






All Christians do. You aren't a Christian? Do you deny the bible?

Furgeddabout it. I'm too much of a bookworm and literature scholar even for the seculars, and you're just being spiritual on the internet. I mostly do that alone by myself, online all I do is be interpersonal and fellowship.

 

[Reddsta]

Just metaphysically, because the two revelatory experiences have to be different, comparing an Old Testament scribe to a New Testament evangelist who had met Him face to face to specifically John the Revelator, who saw Him in prophetic vision after HIs assentation, I can't imagine that a real spiritual difference didn't exist in prophetic experience before and after the Incarnation.

That’s a fantastic perspective…statement…question? I’ll bite…you’re talking about the difference between the way these two men perceive God. The Old Testament writers, prophets and in general the men of God seemed to have had…I need to generalize a bit here…a “mountain top” interaction with the presence of God where He visited them.

Those who like “John the revelator” had actually become a “temple of the God” because the Holy Spirit took up residence in the spirit of man and now dwells within the man.

If someone theologically inclined understands that difference, I bet a lot of real hot point axes of debate would be squared up considerably.

Not necessarily…laBonhomme…I mean your point stands to reason…but the religious lost don’t repent from their false worship…as you can see in this very forum.

One that I can think of is of is the tribulation, another is the rapture, another is the seven last plagues. The mark of the beast seems like it would benefit from a rational lining up of human understandings vis the divine before and after the Life of Christ on Earth.

The unspiritual have no mind to apprehend spiritual thoughts and spiritual words for they are spiritually discerned…wasn’t Paul the one who said that? Many of the local “bible scholars and theologians” who said the “sinners prayer” now feel they are qualified to “rightly divide the Word of Truth” and they don’t even know Him…they have the “bible” so they can read about Him and have “knowledge about Him”…most will never come to Him to have His life in them…these rely upon human reasoning to interpret the Spirit mind of God…can’t be done.

The “tribulation, rapture, plagues, mark of the beast” are concepts largely misunderstood due to the influence of the spirit of the “false messiah”…yeh…interestingly these folks can tell you everything there is to know about that “future 70th week of Daniel” in detail…which kicks off at or around the “rapture” depending on who you read…which then brings in the 7 years of tribulation and the mark of the beast.

I find it amusing that they have no idea of when the rapture is to happen…they cannot agree upon what the mark of the beast is….when it will arrive…or how it will be implemented. They push this silliness as the “word of God.”

Redd...

 

[Reddsta]

Finally, how do think that prophetic knowledge is qualitatively different from apostolic knowledge? How can you tell, do you get a different prayerful sense from the written gospels than you do from the epistles of the apostles and the Old Testament seers, or what?

If I understand your question about “prophetic and apostolic knowledge” here is my “basic” answer…from my experience…the grace of “prophet” in the Body of Christ today…is a function of following the voice of the Lord as it pertains to what God is planning to do…He shares it with His prophets…they have a unique call in this way. Once the prophet has sufficiently matured in His discernment…he can actually “see” in some level of detail what the future looks like and how it rolls out…and he reveals it to the Body of Christ.

The grace of apostle as I have seen it is like this…when that which was “prophesied in antiquity or even in recent times” comes into the day for which it is to be revealed by the Spirit of Truth…it will be unpacked by “men of understanding - apostles” in that day…for that day. These are the messengers of Christ…called by God specifically for the role of messenger.

An example of what I am talking about would be Peter’s (Acts 2:16-21) reference to Joel (Joel 2:28-32). Joel prophesied about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit…roughly 800 years earlier…when it came time for the prophecy to be fulfilled…which was in Peters day…Peter an apostle proclaimed…”this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.”

Redd...

 

[Ronald D Milam]

This may not be what you are looking for but I know of some OT prophecies that do not match up with NT prophecies of the same basic nature. I believe many OT prophecies were tied to the OT covenant and when that was replaced, some prophecies/events changed as well. Most try to harmonize Ot and NT prophecies but some simply do not match, even contradict completely.

Nothing was ever REPLACED, the "Promise" was the original Covenant, you seem to not grasp that.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You see prophecies as having not changed from Old Testament to New Testament writers? Maybe not in spirit, but in substance they have. Isaiah was extremely detailed in his foretelling of the birth of Jesus. He didn't give a date, but he talked about both the moral character of Israel and the conditions it would be in civilly, relative to its nearby half-brother relations the Ishmaelites. That's Old Testament. Jesus prophesied of His death, resurrection, and assentation, and His return after a time of preparation with His father in Heaven. It's the same kind of prophecy, but it is a prophecy of a separate event. Where Isaiah compared the time of Christ's birth to the looming Babylonian invasion of his own day, Jesus speaks of events at the time of His second coming in terms of the pre flood days of Noah. Those are some of the differences I see between the two.

Here is what I think you are pointing at, and this should be obvious, we see DARKEY, even Prophets only get glimpses and are not always in the know, like Daniel was told, these things will be sealed up until the very end of time (Now).

God has time restraint time stamps on when He so choses to reveal things. He also doesn't want the world to understand these things, but only those who seek the answers, so many Prophesies are Encoded by God on purpose.

God never changes, the Old Testament foretold of both coming of Jesus as the suffering servant and the conquering king. In the New Test. we only need to be told of the later, Jesus had already come fulfilling the former. So, nothing changes except the reference point in time.

The Promise was the original Covenant, not the Law of Moses which came 430 yeas later. Jesus was prophesied to be born in Bethlehem, and to "Come out of Egypt" in Hosea 11:1, so wisdom via prayer and study was needed. Likewise, the Anti-Christ has to be born in Greece (Dan. 8:9 mandates this) he also must come to political power in the E.U. (Dan. 7:7-8 shows this to be true) and lastly, as Isaiah 10 says he must have Assyrian blood (not Syrian blood) which was Northern Iraq, Southern Turkey and a slice of Syria. So, ALL THREE have to be meshed into one Prophecy like this.

A man with Turkish/Iraqi bloodline, is born in Greece, where his family migrated to at some point in time in the last 2500 years, Turkey and Greece have a common border. Then this Grecia finds himself born amongst the 10 kings (10 = Completion) or in the E.U. and thus he is eligible to become the E.U. President himself. Thus he fulfills all Three Prophesies, as he must indeed do. So, those old test. Prophesies still hold fast to this day.

Revelation is more a MOVIE PICTURE encoded with Visions and Words, given to Jesus by God the Father, who gets Angels to interpret this through visions and words via Angels. Its easy to me, but hard to most, but this has been my calling for 40 years plus.

The Seals in Rev. 6 are NOT JUDGMENTS, the are Jesus opening up the Trump Judgments in Rev. 8 which are sealed. That is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8. Jesus foretells what the Anti-Christs reign will bring, that is foretold in Seals 1-5 all about the Anti-Christs future 42 months of reign. Seal #6 is Jesus foretelling us what God's 42 months of Wrath will bring. Seal 7 sets it all IN MOTION. Think of a locked closet with 7 locks on it, you are going to show friends your Seven 50th birthday gifts, but after you unlock each lock you describe one gift, BUT...........after 6, they have yet to see anything because there is a 7th lock on that closet. Those 6 descriptions are what Jesus does via the Seals. The 7th Seal is in Rev. 8 for a reason, that is when God's Wrath falls and God allows the A.C. to go forth conquering.

Now Rev. 7 looks different, when we are told about the 144,000 we must understand thats a CODE for all the Jews who repent (or 1/3 like Zech. 8:9 says happen JUST BEFORE the DOTL hits in Zech. 14:1) and God used a code because He did not want to give Satan all this info 2000 years ago. The 10 Virgin Brides are known to stand fir the complete Bride of Christ right? In the Billions total. God does the same thing with the Jewish peoples, the number 10 = Completion the number 12 = Fulness so lets add up this encoded message. 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completeness) x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or all Israel, both men, women and children who repens, and thus the 1/3 has to be 5 million since the world has 15 million Jews so the 144,000 is actually 5 million or so Jews who repent, thus Rev. 7 is merely the Jews who repent Fleeing Judea just before the Rev. 8 Trumpet Judgments hit (Wrath of God).

You seem I can paint a picture of every chapter because I understand the CODES God uses. Rev 8 is Four Phases of one Asteroid Impact. The Asteroid breaking apart sends Sulfur Balls to the ground to burn up the trees in Trump #1 (before the Impact) I think the 1/3 is more a DESTINSATION CLUE, Jesus will rule from the Old World, so I had a light bulb moment, I looked up the New Worlds size, and guess what, it is 1/3 of the total landmass on this earth, then I looked up the Pacific Ocean and it is also 1/3 of all the water on the earths surface, but I thought, well, we just name the Oceans, that can't matter.. BUT, I learned something, the PHD of the Seas mean one sea's water CAN NOT enter another seas waters.(LOL). So, imho, the 1/3 shows up this Asteroid will hit in the Pacific Ocean just off the coast of California and Mexico. Apophis is coming, it will hit on April 13 2029.

Then in Trump 2 we get the IMPACT (Earthquake). In Trump 3 we get the FALLOUT (Wormwood Poison) that poisons the fresh waters. Then in Trump #4 we get Sun and Moon going dark, but why? Because 1/3 of the world is on fire !! The smoke and debris from the impact will rise up and filter out the sun, and all the fires will cause a Red Hue on the moon to make it look Blood Red.

Its easy to me because I have put the grunt work and prayer in over 40 years.

 

[ewq1938]

Nothing was ever REPLACED, the "Promise" was the original Covenant, you seem to not grasp that.

Of course that is totally false.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.



The new covenant was a better one and established on better promises.



Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.



The first covenant had faults. If it would have had no faults then a second one would never have been created.




Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.



A new covenant not according to the original. That proves the new covenant is not simply the old one "renewed" and "refreshed".



Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hebrews 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The first covenant was made "old" and decayed from "death" which is what happens to something which is old and has been replaced.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Of course that is totally false.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Jesus was the PROMISE, the Law was added 430 years after the Promise.

What you are seeing is Paul trying to gently explain to "Jews" (Hebrews) why the Law was now no good unto mankind, they had only understood THE LAW, so he had to be gentle, the truth is in Gal. 3, if you take the time to read it says that the Promise was the original Covenant, the LAW came 430 years later and was only added because of SIN. The LAW can forgive nothing, it only condemns.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jesus was the PROMISE, the Law was added 430 years after the Promise.

The Abrahamic Covenant was given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob over a period of some 240 years with the last addition occurring just before Jacob travelled down to Egypt. Then, 430 years later after God brought the nation of Israel out of Egypt, God entered into a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the nations covenant at Mt Sinai, with a modest number of Laws given at that time.

After Moses pleaded with God to not completely reject the Israelites, God relented and established a pattern for their worship with more Laws added.

In Jeremiah 31:31ff we are told that God will renew His Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations covenant with the nation of Israel so that they can once more be a blessing to all of the families/nations of the world who choose to inhabit God fertile field once more.

God has not changed His plan for the salvation of those who chose to inhabit His fertile field and they will bring about an increase in those who will inherit God's Earth in the distant future.

Shalom

 

[covenantee]

The Abrahamic Covenant was given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob over a period of some 240 years with the last addition occurring just before Jacob travelled down to Egypt. Then, 430 years later after God brought the nation of Israel out of Egypt, God entered into a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among the nations covenant at Mt Sinai, with a modest number of Laws given at that time.

After Moses pleaded with God to not completely reject the Israelites, God relented and established a pattern for their worship with more Laws added.

In Jeremiah 31:31ff we are told that God will renew His Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations covenant with the nation of Israel so that they can once more be a blessing to all of the families/nations of the world who choose to inhabit God fertile field once more.

God has not changed His plan for the salvation of those who chose to inhabit His fertile field and they will bring about an increase in those who will inherit God's Earth in the distant future.

Shalom

In 1 Peter 2:5,9 Peter identifies the Holy Nation.

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

It is not the nation of Israel.

It is the Church.

 

[Jay Ross]

In 1 Peter 2:5,9 Peter identifies the Holy Nation.

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

It is not the nation of Israel.

It is the Church.

You are not necessarily wrong in what you have posted, however, you are also not right in the context of what you have posted.

God will remember Israel once more and redeem them and they will become precious in His sight.

It seems to me that you are disregarding the Jeremiah 31 passage and ignoring what God has prophesied.

Shalom

 

[covenantee]

You are not necessarily wrong in what you have posted, however, you are also not right in the context of what you have posted.

God will remember Israel once more and redeem them and they will become precious in His sight.

It seems to me that you are disregarding the Jeremiah 31 passage and ignoring what God has prophesied.

Shalom

Peter was intimately familiar with Jeremiah 31.

He recognized its fulfillment in the Church.

Not in the nation of Israel.