Does "For Ever" mean forever?

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Mike Waters

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I’ve only speed read through the thread but, unless I’ve missed it, no one has alluded to the references to ‘the second death’ in Revelation.

Those whose names are not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire for the purpose of perishing in their second death, as distinct from being thrown there for the purpose of enduring a ‘second life’ of eternal torment.
Doubtless the event will be met with, and preceded by, "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

However, eternal torment is the fate that is reserved solely for “the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet”.

Two distinctly different purposes of the ‘Lake of Fire’.
 
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Hobie

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I’ve only speed read through the thread but, unless I’ve missed it, no one has alluded to the references to ‘the second death’ in Revelation.

Those whose names are not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire for the purpose of perishing in their second death, as distinct from being thrown there for the purpose of enduring a ‘second life’ of eternal torment.
Doubtless the event will be met with, and preceded by, "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

However, eternal torment is the fate that is reserved solely for “the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet”.

Two distinctly different purposes of the ‘Lake of Fire’.
They all end up in the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 

Mike Waters

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If you "rightly divide the word of truth" by cherry picking verses and passages which suit what you want to belief, then you can be a Universal Reconciliationist, an Annihilationist, one who believes that the vast majority of mankind will be eternally tormented in a Lake of Fire, or even a Hyper Calvinist who believes that those who never get to see a Bible or hear the gospel message will also be eternally tormented as a punishment for not having done so.
 

justbyfaith

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If you "rightly divide the word of truth" by cherry picking verses and passages which suit what you want to belief, then you can be a Universal Reconciliationist, an Annihilationist, one who believes that the vast majority of mankind will be eternally tormented in a Lake of Fire, or even a Hyper Calvinist who believes that those who never get to see a Bible or hear the gospel message will also be eternally tormented as a punishment for not having done so.

This is faithfully true.

Abraham obeyed the light of creation and believed in a Creator God (see Romans 1). As a result, he received the light of conscience (see Romans 2); and because he obeyed that, God revealed Himself to him and gave him the light of Christ (Romans 3).

Each one of us is accountable for the light that we are given. If we are obedient to the light that is given, we will generally be given more light.

Therefore men are without excuse, because they reject the light as it is given to them.

Jhn 3:19, And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Rom 10:18, But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
 

DPMartin

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Sorry if you feel that way..
no your not, you wouldn't have posted this in the first place if you did. and its not how I feel its simple observation of your posting.

your god should be what you think he ought to be, its common as dirt in today's churches.
but its the other way around, man should be what God thinks man ought to be, and you disagree, which is apparent by your posting to justify to others your view of what God ought to be.
 
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Steve Owen

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If the Doctrine of eternal punishment is lost, the Doctrine of the cross will also be lost.
If hell is too extreme, if God is unjust to inflict eternal punishment, then the cross is too extreme, and our Lord's sufferings too great for what we are being saved from.
If annihilation is the penalty for sin, then Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Vlad the Impaler etc., etc. are now experiencing exactly what they thought they would - nothing.
Our problem is a low view of sin. If a group of people are in a restaurant together, one may admit to having had an abortion, another may have a same-sex partner and no one will bat an eye-lid. But let one of them light up a cigarette and the management will descend upon him at once and he'll be thrown out. We do not understand what the Puritans called the 'Sinfulness of sin;' nor do we see sin as God sees it.
 

Preacher4Truth

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Oh, forever isn't forever and eternal isn't eternal. That must mean God had a beginning, was created and will not live eternally. All the elect in heaven will only be there for a little while. :rolleyes:
 
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Base12

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I agree that the Lake of Fire is the permanent destruction of body, soul, and spirit.

Body and Soul are destroyed, however...

#1) Spirit comes from God.
#2) Spirit is incapable of sinning.
#3) Spirit CAN NOT BE DESTROYED.
#4) Spirit goes back to God who gave it...


Ecclesiastes 12:7
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"


There is not a single verse in the Bible that shows that the Spirit can be destroyed. It's a part of God.

As far as the Lake of Fire is concerned, many here are making incorrect assumptions. Those that are thrown into the Lake of Fire PASS THROUGH IT...

Leviticus 18:21
"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD"


Many verses attest to this fact. Moloch represents the Womb of Reincarnation. FACT.

Don't forget that not a single One of you were able to debunk this. Not even close.
 

Base12

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The 'Fire' in the Lake of Fire is Tophet... aka... Vesta...

full


The Lake of Fire is a picture of this...

"The myths depicting Vesta and her priestesses were few, and were limited to tales of miraculous impregnation by a phallus appearing in the flames of the hearth—the manifestation of the goddess"

Vesta (mythology) - Wikipedia

The Devil is the Phallus...

full


Literally the Earthly Father!

See those Spirits waiting to be birthed? That's called Outer Darkness. They are in the Loins ready to be thrown into the Lake.

There is so much more to the story, but Christians would rather keep their Doctrines of Hatred, Annihilation, Destruction, Eternal Torments.

Wake up already.
 

Base12

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I will probably get banned for posting this information, but that's the Life of Stephen for you.

This is what Moloch and the Golden Calf mean in Scripture...

full


The Occult World knows this and laughs at the ignorance of the average Christian.

The Pit is the Womb...

full


The 'Sides of the Pit' are called Ovaries. Lucifer goes there to be Reincarnated again and again as each Head of the Beast...

Isaiah 14:15
"Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit"


full


Alchemy is all about bringing back the Antichrist from the Lake of Fire...

full


And there you have it.

It's been nice knowing you all.

:(
 

Nancy

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Malachi 4:1-3 - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
If the dead burn in hell forever then they would be left with root and branch. Also, how can the righteous tread down the wicked that will be ashes if they are eternally burning forever? Simple, they cannot. The Bible does not contradict itself and a “eternally burning” hell is not scripturally accurate. That concept is foreign to the scriptures.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The wages of sin is not eternal life while burning in an eternal hell; the wages of sin is death. Hell-fire is the means used to bring about that death.

Psalms 37:20 - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 112:10 - The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Proverbs 10:28 - The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
Psalms 68:2 - As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
The wicked cannot perish and burn forever at the same time – that would be an oxymoron if there ever was one. It would also mean that the Bible is inaccurate and inconsistent which it isn't. Again, it is US that must change our preconceived notions and accept what the Bible is telling us.

Psalm 104:35 - Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
Aha, the wicked will become “no more”; a verse that says it plainly.

Ezekiel 28:18, 19 - Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Another verse that says it plainly; they (the wicked) will be no more. They can’t be burning forever AND be “no more” at the same time. Obviously it is the result that will be eternal and forever.

How does this all come together?
The Biblical teaching is simple; the results of hell-fire are eternal, everlasting, and forever; the actual fire and those burning in it are not. I think people can get confused with the actual burning and the final result and purpose of hell-fire. The result lasts forever, the fires do not. This confusion is reflected well in the following verse where "everlasting" is the stumbling-block word but now that you know the truth verses like this become easily understandble:
Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Conclusion:
Many portions of the Bible simply cannot be reconciled unless the reader understands that the term “for ever” or “not be quenched” or “unquenchable” can also mean “until it is done/accomplished” and not always the “ceaseless ages of eternity” as is the common English meaning. For the Bible to be consistent, which we all know it is and all believers should understand that, then WE must change, not the Bible. We must change our understanding and get rid of preconceived notions. As with anything, the reader must understand the context as well as the Biblical meaning of words, not the modern, in order to fully comprehend the meaning. The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. The key is to consider its proper context and compare scriptures to get the full meaning. Unless one reads with the desire to understand and the willingness to compare scriptures then they will not understand this topic or any others that the Bible teaches,– it’s just that simple.

Um...wow. That's allot to chew on, thank you. Lot's of great insight here, awesome!
 

Helen

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Malachi 4:1-3 - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
If the dead burn in hell forever then they would be left with root and branch. Also, how can the righteous tread down the wicked that will be ashes if they are eternally burning forever? Simple, they cannot. The Bible does not contradict itself and a “eternally burning” hell is not scripturally accurate. That concept is foreign to the scriptures.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The wages of sin is not eternal life while burning in an eternal hell; the wages of sin is death. Hell-fire is the means used to bring about that death.

Psalms 37:20 - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 112:10 - The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.
Proverbs 10:28 - The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
Psalms 68:2 - As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
The wicked cannot perish and burn forever at the same time – that would be an oxymoron if there ever was one. It would also mean that the Bible is inaccurate and inconsistent which it isn't. Again, it is US that must change our preconceived notions and accept what the Bible is telling us.

Psalm 104:35 - Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
Aha, the wicked will become “no more”; a verse that says it plainly.

Ezekiel 28:18, 19 - Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Another verse that says it plainly; they (the wicked) will be no more. They can’t be burning forever AND be “no more” at the same time. Obviously it is the result that will be eternal and forever.

How does this all come together?
The Biblical teaching is simple; the results of hell-fire are eternal, everlasting, and forever; the actual fire and those burning in it are not. I think people can get confused with the actual burning and the final result and purpose of hell-fire. The result lasts forever, the fires do not. This confusion is reflected well in the following verse where "everlasting" is the stumbling-block word but now that you know the truth verses like this become easily understandble:
Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Conclusion:
Many portions of the Bible simply cannot be reconciled unless the reader understands that the term “for ever” or “not be quenched” or “unquenchable” can also mean “until it is done/accomplished” and not always the “ceaseless ages of eternity” as is the common English meaning. For the Bible to be consistent, which we all know it is and all believers should understand that, then WE must change, not the Bible. We must change our understanding and get rid of preconceived notions. As with anything, the reader must understand the context as well as the Biblical meaning of words, not the modern, in order to fully comprehend the meaning. The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. The key is to consider its proper context and compare scriptures to get the full meaning. Unless one reads with the desire to understand and the willingness to compare scriptures then they will not understand this topic or any others that the Bible teaches,– it’s just that simple.

Amen, good thoughts. :)
 
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justbyfaith

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"For ever" or "everlasting" doesn't mean for ever but only a limited time?

Then we do not have everlasting life (life that will prosper into eternity).

Our life will end after precisely one aion at which time we shall perish.

This is no gospel at all; and also perverts what Jesus was plainly trying to convey when He said that He who believeth on Him hath everlasting life (John 6:47).
 
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Helen

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Does forever mean forever?

NO, not the 'forever' that we think of as "forever.".
 
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justbyfaith

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Mat 13:41, The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42, And shall cast them into a furnace of fire (as punishment): there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:49, So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Mat 13:50, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire (as punishment): there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire (as punishment), prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Pro 30:15, The horseleach hath two daughters, crying, Give, give. There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough:
Pro 30:16, The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough.
 
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