Does God Love Sinners?

[Angelina]

God does not love sinners in the sense that there is anything about them or their lives to love. They disgust Him. In fact He drowned ALL
of them at one point. God's very nature is love so he gave them 120 years of Noah preaching and building an ark for them to repent or even
build their own ark. God will again judge sinners at the close of this age with fire.

There is no-where in the bible that states that God hates sinners. There are plenty of places that say that he hates the detestable things that they do but no-where does it say that sinners are hated by God.

Christianity today has a false message in that they tell the sinner God loves them. This gives them the false impression that there is something about them that God does not hate and condemn. The truth is God's nature is love so He sent Jesus to make it possible for sinners to be made righteous, forsake sin, and be loved by God. There is a BIG difference. Sin and sinners disgust God.

Romans 5
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Even Paul did not profess to have a attained perfection Philippians 3:12-14 yet you are saying that God does not love sinners. Why do you think Christ died? If I were to say to an unbeliever that God loved them so much that he sent his son to take the punishment of their sin on the cross so that you do not have to...and that if they confess him as Lord and believe in their heart that God raised him up from the dead, they shall be saved...why is that a false message? :huh:

This false message of God's love for sinners has had predictable results. Unrepentant sodomites have been accepted as Christians and organized "churches".

Going to Church does not make you a Christian and I'm sure that there are more than just sodomites filling pews all over the world. God knows who are his and he certainly knows who is not ...

Shalom!

 

[Axehead]

If God is just then He will not punish any man for anything that he could not possibly avoid; Every punishment supposes that the offending person may have avoided the offence for which he is punished. Otherwise, to punish him would be resoundingly unjust and inconsistent with the character of God.

We don't even have a parallel of this kind of judgment in how human life is governed. God's character of justice is reflected in the laws he has given to man for civil legislation.


No man is condemned for his inability to do what God has expressly commanded him to do, yet it is also true that he can be condemned for his ignorance and unwillingness and that is the principle that overthrows Total Depravity: A man can be condemned for his ignorance or his unwillingness but never his inability to do what God has commanded him to do. Inability is the ground of salvation for babies and idiots.

The first kind of scripture that overthrows the notion of Total Depravity is where there is a command to believe and the second kind are those passages that imply the possibility of doing so. If the multitude and wide variety of commands, exhortations, admonishments and warnings in the Bible are to be taken seriously, then man must have the ability to respond to them either to his good or for his detriment. And this is especially true when it concerns his salvation:

Isa_45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Mark_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

ALL MEN, EVERYWHERE TO REPENT. ALL, ALL, ALL MEN.

1Jn_3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

And there are also the invitations of Jesus Christ Himself:
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John_7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, IF ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

If Total Depravity/Inability is true, then what are we to make of these verses? Is God just mocking His creation and would God present salvation to a man knowing that the man could never even will to receive it? Thankfully, the God of the Bible is not the god of Calvinism. God Himself even tells us about the genuineness of His intentions:

Isa_45:19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Desiderius Erasmus understood this and used it against Luther in their debate over free will: "If it is not in the power of every man to keep what is commanded, all the exhortations in the Scriptures and all the promises, threats, expostulations, reproofs, adjurations, blessings, curses and hosts of precepts, are of necessity useless."

There are also scriptures that imply the possibility that a man can believe and these overthrow the doctrine of Total Depravity as well.

Luke_8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

God's intention was that they should have believed and be saved.

John_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (If He does not want them to come to Him, then He is mocking them).

You don't tell people that have no ability to come to you, that "ye will not come to me". Duh!! No, Jesus wants all men to come to Him.

Continuiing...


John_5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

The Lord is not mocking the fact that they can't believe, He is trying to lead them out of darkness by speaking truth to them, else why waste His time with them. Surely, He knows who the Elect are.

John_5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

This brings up a good point. Why would God accuse any of the non-elect for something they could not do? There should be no condemnation for those who had no ability to answer God's call. They were made sinners, and elected to stay sinners, so why should they be tormented in hell for having the inability to respond to God's call? God should just annihilate them but thank them first for being good useful idiots.

1Th_2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

All these verses do not mean that under the right circumstances a man might believe, but they do show that the possibility exists. And because there is indeed the possibility that man can choose to believe, Total Depravity crumbles. If Total Depravity is true, then all a man can do is "HOPE" that he is the elect and wait for God to save him. And if a man cannot do anything himself then another man cannot do anything for him, either.

One of the absurdities of Calvinism is preaching the Gospel to unregenerate men who may be held responsible for their inability to respond to the Gospel.

Yes, we certainly do not see that kind of justice reflected in human society and it is a mockery of God's character to say that men are held responsible for their inability. If a man really believes in the first point of Calvinism then he would never think of "lost" people and evangelizing or missionary work.

Rejecting the false doctrine of Total Depravity does not mean that a man is rejecting the biblical doctrine of man's fall into sin and resultant depravity. Christians believe in the depravity of man, but Calvinists use the doctrine of man's depravity to make their doctrine look orthodox.

Martin Lloyd-Jones (1899-1981) unintentionally made a statement that is very revealing:

"My friend, if you are a Christian, do you know that your were the object of God's interest and concern before the foundation of the world? All these things have been worked out in eternity, before time, so you must always remember that nothing can happen in time which will make the slightest difference." (Saved In Eternity, p. 16).

If Calvinists really believe in this fatalistic philosophy that "nothing in time will make the slightest difference" then this confirms the state of all men that:

Lam 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

The best that one can hope for is that he is one of the "Elect".

Zanchius says, "We assert that the number of the elect and also the reprobate, is so fixed and determinate that neither can be augmented or diminished, (Election, Standard Bearer).

John Wesley, even though he was an ardent Arminian had enough sense to comprehend the real issue:

[SIZE=medium]"Call it therefore by whatever name you please, election, preterition, predestination, or reprobation, it comes in the end to the same thing. The sense of all is plainly this, -- by virtue of an eternal, unchangeable, irresistible decree of God, on part of mankind are infallibly saved, and the rest infallibly damned; it being impossible that any of the former should be damned. or that any of the latter should be saved." [/SIZE]http://www.ccel.org/ccel/wesley/sermons/sermons-html/serm-128.html


If you are elect then in God's appointed time you will believe, so what possible difference could it make whether one evangelizes or missionaries are sent out?

John Wesley understood the practical result of unconditional election. He charged it with "making all preaching vain, and tending to destroy holiness, the comfort of religion and zeal for good works, yea, the whole Christian revelation by involving it in fatal contradictions."

I would suggest that the readers of this thread read the following sermon by John Wesley - Free Grace


John Wesley close his sermon with this:

"O hear ye this, ye that forget God! Ye cannot charge your death upon him! "`Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?' saith the Lord God." (Ezek. 18:23ff.) "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions where by ye have transgressed, -- for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God. Wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye." "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. -- Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezekiel 33:11.)


Axehead

 

[lesjude]

There is no-where in the bible that states that God hates sinners. There are plenty of places that say that he hates the detestable things that they do but no-where does it say that sinners are hated by God.

Psalm 11:5
New King James Version (NKJV)



5 The Lord tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.

US troops are taking graphic pictures of their slaughters and selling them to internet sites. There is a large public demand.
Anyone that supports war supports violence.

Psalm 53:5
New King James Version (NKJV)



5 There they are in great fear
Where no fear was,
For God has scattered the bones of him who encamps against you;
You have put them to shame,
Because God has despised them.
There are many today who persecute "encamp" against God's elect. God despises them both then and now. Do I have to say God does not despise a persecutor IF they are His elect.

Malachi 1:2-3
New King James Version (NKJV)

2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.

“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”


Romans 9:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)


11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[b]

This is election of the saved before time began. If God "elects" anyone then He must have elected ALL. There is no other way it could be by grace. You do believe in salvation by grace through faith right? If you do then explain how man choosing God is grace.






iv>
Romans 5
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Even Paul did not profess to have a attained perfection Philippians 3:12-14 yet you are saying that God does not love sinners. Why do you think Christ died? If I were to say to an unbeliever that God loved them so much that he sent his son to take the punishment of their sin on the cross so that you do not have to...and that if they confess him as Lord and believe in their heart that God raised him up from the dead, they shall be saved...why is that a false message? :huh:

If God is just then He will not punish any man for anything that he could not possibly avoid; Every punishment supposes that the offending person may have avoided the offence for which he is punished. Otherwise, to punish him would be resoundingly unjust and inconsistent with the character of God.

We don't even have a parallel of this kind of judgment in how human life is governed. God's character of justice is reflected in the laws he has given to man for civil legislation.
No man is condemned for his inability to do what God has expressly
commanded him to do, yet it is also true that he can be condemned for
his ignorance and unwillingness and that is the principle that
overthrows Total Depravity: A man can be condemned for his ignorance or
his unwillingness but never his inability to do what God has commanded
him to do. Inability is the ground of salvation for babies and idiots.

Nonsense. God's standard of righteousness is Himself as demonstrated by Christ's ministry. He will judge everything less.
Matthew 5:48

New King James Version (NKJV)


48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.






1 Peter 1:15-16
New King James Version (NKJV)

15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”



Hebrews 12:14
New King James Version (NKJV)


14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:



Ephesians 4:13
New King James Version (NKJV)


13 till
we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son
of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness
of Christ;






The first kind of scripture that overthrows the notion of Total Depravity is where there is a command to believe and the second kind are those passages that imply the possibility of doing so. If the multitude and wide variety of commands, exhortations, admonishments and warnings in the Bible are to be taken seriously, then man must have the ability to respond to them either to his good or for his detriment. And this is especially true when it concerns his salvation:

Explain how this is not election:
Romans 9:11-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

AND THIS:


Romans 8:30
New King James Version (NKJV)


30 Moreover
whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He
also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
AND THIS:


2 Timothy 1:9
New King James Version (NKJV)


9 who has saved us and called us
with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His
own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time
began,

Making a TOTALLY freewill choice apart from God's election is a work that earns salvation for us. That is NOT grace!

EXPLAIN THIS:


Ephesians 1:4-5
New King James Version (NKJV)


4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

 

[Axehead]

Your answers are not answers. You are playing in your own mind with your own man-made doctrines. Man-made doctrines are made by isolating single verses from the Bible from the other words of God that brings His truth into clarity and balance. Your manipulation of God's words are no exception and are true to form how other man-made doctrines are created. In fact, what you do is not even take verses to prop up your man-made doctrine, but you take single words out of verses to form your doctrine around.

"who has saved us and called us
with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His
own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time
began,"

Yes, that is right. He saved us and called us and we had nothing to do with Him living on earth and presenting Himself as a sacrifice then laying down His life for us and we cannot call ourselves. We cannot get to heaven by climbing over the wall, we must go through the door, Christ. I will ask you the same thing I asked Webers_Home. Does God put no responsibility on sinners? And is there no responsibility on the Saint once they have answered the call and gone from being a sinner to being a saint, accepted in the Beloved?

If there is no responsibility on our part, whether saint or sinner, then there cannot be any condemnation or rewards. We are just "play things" for God. Like a little girl and her dolls.

And where is your assurance of salvation? How do you know you are the elect. What comforts you in the valley of the shadow of death when you have wrestled with doubts? How did you receive the Holy Spirit? Did you receive it by faith? Note: You must receive and you must exercise faith. God will not do that for you, unless of course you are a "doll" in a little girls room, then you are just part of someone's fantasy.

Axehead

 

[biggandyy]

I love it when anti-Calvinists lecture us Calvinists on what we "really" believe. Their arrogance make me all tingly inside and I laugh and laugh and laugh at you.

 

[Rex]

I love it when anti-Calvinists lecture us Calvinists on what we "really" believe. Their arrogance make me all tingly inside and I laugh and laugh and laugh at you.

That sounds very familiar, I remember now! its the same answer I get when quoting the catholic catechism.
Some
how no matter how its interpreted claim its never right and of course the
catholic make that point, but never offer to clarify, IMO because it
contradicts the plain meaning or definition of the English language. So to dodge the bullet so to say, they as you, simply claim you don't understand

I expected better from you but I find your video appropriate for such a reply

Ha ha you can't figure me out or possibly know what I mean
rather childish don't you think? or maybe you're experiencing holy laughter
now that's funny as well

 

[biggandyy]

Ummm... I want giving an apologia for Calvinism, just making an observation. Perhaps there are those who presume every statement to be an affront to their pet religious proclivities but I guess that's just me assuming everyone has a sense of humor. You have demonstrated me wrong.

 

[Axehead]

I actually don't expect better from Andy so i can't say i am shocked or surprised. He can't bring clarity to the subject of Total Depravity/Inability brcause no one can. It doesnt exist! The only thing left to do is thumb your nose at people mumbling nanny nanny boo-boo. And that tells you all you need to know about their ability to explain Total Depravity.

The TULIP has wilted.

 

[biggandyy]

To a closed mind like yours you simply won't allow an explanation to make sense. Your bias and that's ok, just to act like a martyr when you are challenged. I might start laughing again.

 

[Rex]

Ummm... I want giving an apologia for Calvinism, just making an observation. Perhaps there are those who presume every statement to be an affront to their pet religious proclivities but I guess that's just me assuming everyone has a sense of humor. You have demonstrated me wrong.

No your not, your making a joke about others pointing out that scripture has more to say than than the Calvinist is willing to see or comment on.

I love it when anti-Calvinists lecture us Calvinists on what we "really" believe. Their arrogance make me all tingly inside and I laugh and laugh and laugh at you.

Now let me prove my point, most people would interpret your first statement "the lower one" as being offended and in that offense you are attempting to belittle by making it appear that we are lecturing you, when in reality you can't provide an answer for the hundreds of verses that fly in the face of Calvinist theology in the form of Arminian.

When confronted with your childish response you interpret your first reply as being a joke.
The only joke is your back peddling your rather your inability to address the issue.

To a closed mind like yours you simply won't allow an explanation to make sense. Your bias and that's ok, just to act like a martyr when you are challenged. I might start laughing again.

You continue your charade, but never offer a biblical explanation, where is the challenge? If we refer to your post it is locked up in your head some where as you expressed with your nany nany attitude.
You may very well be the one being laughed at

All in all what a great tactic, discrediting someone with no counter argument or evidence.

I very much enjoy your post and company Andy but you really need to pick up your sword rather than placing your thumbs in your ears and wagging your tongue at people LOL.

 

[Axehead]

To a closed mind like yours you simply won't allow an explanation to make sense. Your bias and that's ok, just to act like a martyr when you are challenged. I might start laughing again.

"Allow an explanation to make sense?"

Either it does or it doesn't.

Do I need to "open" my mind or just turn it off?

I'm listening. Go ahead, please.

 

[biggandyy]

Why change what works? When the muse is upon me I can make great sense. But usually this is not that time. When I get home and have a chance to unravel from the day... FYI... Snarky BA is at work, Thoughtful BA is at home, oft times leisurly reloading stripper clips or rimming catridges for powder.

 

[Axehead]

I understand. No sweat. Be careful with those stripper clips, they have sharp edges. You're a reloader? My brother just got some equipment for that. I forgot the brand name but he's psyched. Been collecting saving his brass for years.

 

[biggandyy]

I polish them up first so the rounds go in smooth, the way should come out.

 

[lesjude]

Your answers are not answers. You are playing in your own mind with your own man-made doctrines. Man-made doctrines are made by isolating single verses from the Bible from the other words of God that brings His truth into clarity and balance. Your manipulation of God's words are no exception and are true to form how other man-made doctrines are created. In fact, what you do is not even take verses to prop up your man-made doctrine, but you take single words out of verses to form your doctrine around.

"who has saved us and called us
with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His
own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time
began,"

Yes, that is right. He saved us and called us and we had nothing to do with Him living on earth and presenting Himself as a sacrifice then laying down His life for us and we cannot call ourselves. We cannot get to heaven by climbing over the wall, we must go through the door, Christ. I will ask you the same thing I asked Webers_Home. Does God put no responsibility on sinners? And is there no responsibility on the Saint once they have answered the call and gone from being a sinner to being a saint, accepted in the Beloved?

I have given numerous verses that state predestination/election is God's plan, and asked you to explain why you think I am wrong. You have answered NONE of my specific scriptures.


If there is no responsibility on our part, whether saint or sinner, then there cannot be any condemnation or rewards. We are just "play things" for God. Like a little girl and her dolls.

All are responsible for the things done in the flesh. The elect either are rewarded or lose rewards and the unsaved/nonelect are punished more severely or less so depending on their deeds. An unsaved Sunday school teacher less so than a mass murderer. "Hell" has degrees of punishment.

And where is your assurance of salvation? How do you know you are the elect. What comforts you in the valley of the shadow of death when you have wrestled with doubts? How did you receive the Holy Spirit? Did you receive it by faith? Note: You must receive and you must exercise faith. God will not do that for you, unless of course you are a "doll" in a little girls room, then you are just part of someone's fantasy.

Axehead

God has made His "picks" before the beginning of time. He is VERY
concerned with the hearts and minds of His elect. The rest are a
"concern" to the extent that they are under His Providential control to
see to it His predetermined plan is perfectly carried out. They can even
be used to bless the elect and are. He even gives their lives for His
elect. They even bless the elect with persecution. So you see they are
quite useful.
The elect seek until they
are found. The rest either become religious or do what is "good" and
hope. The obits are full of people and their families who died believing
both those lies "hoping".
Here is the elects' assurance: Hope has nothing to do with it. The elect KNOW. The elect receive a measure of faith at
salvation and allow the Holy Spirit to train them in its use and do
what the Bible says to increase that faith. They also take the
responsibility to do what 2 Peter 5-11 says as well as allowing the Holy
Spirit to put the self life to death, live Matthew 5, 6 and 7 before
God and the world, and do what Matthew 10:7-8, Mark 16:17-18
say at every opportunity. This is what the Bibe calls fruit. If one is
not at least open to a Spirit led life to do these things the Bible
gives NO assurance of salvation. Rebelling at the Acts 2:4
experience is NOT a good first step down the path of a Spirit led life,
nor is refusing water baptism by immersion as a believing adult in
JESUS' name. The Bible gives no assurance to those who die in rebellion
against God's righteous commands in these two areas. This adds new
meaningto "few" and who is elect.
Here is the heart attitude of the elect and they KNOW they have it:
1 John 5:1-4
New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Whoever
believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who
loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.

 

[Angelina]

Either God loves sinners or he hates everyone he made. I would believe the former rather than the latter because everyone has sinned and has fallen short of the glory of God. No-one is exempt.
He has forgiven those who have come to him and confessed their sins and received him as their Lord and savior. No one is able to say that someone will never be saved and therefore are not a part of the elect of God because we are not in the position to make that call...only God is.

He did not send his Son for the elect only, he sent his son for everyone who comes before him and asks for his forgiveness. I do not believe that he will ever ignore anyone who confesses and believes that he is Lord...Just as he did not ignore the woman in Matthew 15:22-23, 24-26, 27-28 even though he came only for the lost sheep of Israel [the elect in God].

Shalom!!!

 

[Axehead]

Do you think the grace of God can be resisted? (Irresistible Grace)
Stephen thought God's grace could be resisted.
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Why is Stephen so incensed and surprised that they are resisting? Doesn't he know about ELECTION? Possibly because he is not a Calvinist.

Why do we have to warn the wicked if God has picked who He has picked for Life and for Destruction. Why plead with sinners. Isn't this nothing but vanity?

Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

All Calvinists, whether they be Presbyterian or Reformed, Primitive Baptist or Sovereign Grace Baptist; all Calvinists, whether they be premillenial or amillenial, dispensational or covenant theologist; all Calvinists, whether they go by the name or not; all Calvinists have one thing in common: God, by a sovereign, eternal decree, has determined before the foundation of the world who shall be saved and who shall be lost.

Special Vocabulary
To obscure the real issue, a vocabulary has been invented to confuse and confound the Christian. The arguments about supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism, total depravity and total inability, reprobation and preterition, synergism and monergism, free will and free agency, common grace and special grace, general calling and effectual calling, perseverance and preservation, and the sovereignty of God are all immaterial.

The stumbling block for the Calvinist is this, a system has to be constructed whereby salvation is made a mysterious, arcane, incomprehensible, decree of God. Thus, the basic error of Calvinism is confounding election and predestination with salvation, which they never are in the Bible, but only in the philosophical speculations and theological implications of Calvinism: the other side of Calvinism. Laurence M. Vance, pp. 34-35

The doctrines of Calvinism, if really believed and consistently practiced are detrimental to evangelism, personal soul winning, prayer, preaching, and practical Christianity in general. This is even unintentionally admitted by a Calvinistic Baptist: "The doctrines taught in the Bible relating to the sovereignty of God, referred to in religious circles as "Calvinism", also as "the doctrines of grace", are doctrines of the Book that are the occasion for many people "choking" on the Word. The misues and abuse of these doctrines will deaden and kill." Bob L. Ross, The Killing Effects of Calvinism, p. 1

It is not unusual to hear glowing characterizations of Calvinism since they come from the mouths of Calvinists themselves. However, others could not disagree more:

Calvinism, or the belief in election, is not simply blasphemy, but the superfetation of blasphemy. Samuel Taylor Coleridge, quoted in Eugene E. Brussel, ed., Webster's New World Dictionary of Quotable Definitions, p. 66.

The doctrine that an infinite God made millions of people knowing that they would be damned. Robert G. Ingersoll, quoted in Brussell, p. 66.

Calvinism is, in many of its facets, a human philosophical system. It is a constantly divisive element in the church. Kent Kelly, Inside the tulip controversy: Calvinism rebuked & revisited, p. 8.

Calvinism is not accidentally but essentially immoral, since it makes the distinction between right and wrong a matter of positive enactment, and thereby makes it possible to assert that what is immoral of man is moral for God, because He is above morality. Aubrey Moore, quoted in Alan P. F. Sell, The Great Debate, p. 21.

But if it is the Gospel, then it should line up with the Gospel. Let's compare the Gospel of Paul the Apostle to the gospel of John Calvin.

Word of God
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor. 15:1-4

John Calvin:
We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestinated to life or death. John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, p. 926.

Now, how do you have a passion for the lost and the Great Commission with that kind of mindset?

The biblical Gospel is the good news about what Jesus Christ has done on the cross respecting our sins. The gospel of Calvinism is likewise good news - but only if you are one of the "elect." This is confirmed by Engelsma: "Calvinism is good news! It is Gospel glad tidings! As the message of grace, it comforts us and all those who, by the grace of the Spirit, believe in Christ."

To the non-elect, Calvinism is not good news at all - it is an eternal death sentence.. Laurence M. Vance, The Other Side of Calvinism, p. 5.


"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also, of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" Acts 20:30.

Either God loves sinners or he hates everyone he made. I would believe the former rather than the latter because everyone has sinned and has fallen short of the glory of God. No-one is exempt.
He has forgiven those who have come to him and confessed their sins and received him as their Lord and savior. No one is able to say that someone will never be saved and therefore are not a part of the elect of God because we are not in the position to make that call...only God is.

He did not send his Son for the elect only, he sent his son for everyone who comes before him and asks for his forgiveness. I do not believe that he will ever ignore anyone who confesses and believes that he is Lord...Just as he did not ignore the woman in Matthew 15:22-23, 24-26, 27-28 even though he came only for the lost sheep of Israel [the elect in God].

Shalom!!!

Amen, Shalom to you too, Angelina.

And God's character is demonstrated to us in word and deed, that He is no respecter of persons. He desires all men to be saved.

Now, we know many will be lost and "few" will find eternal life, according to Jesus' words, because they rejected the provision of God (Jesus).

When one shrinks back from living and preaching the truth, the temptation comes to create their own unique system of theology. It is a form of self-justification.

Axehead

 

[lesjude]

Either God loves sinners or he hates everyone he made. I would believe the former rather than the latter because everyone has sinned and has fallen short of the glory of God. No-one is exempt.

He loves His elect while they are sinners. You are saying that God does not know who will be saved and who won't. That means He is not soveereign and not God. He is both.



iv>He has forgiven those who have come to him and confessed their sins and received him as their Lord and savior. No one is able to say that someone will never be saved and therefore are not a part of the elect of God because we are not in the position to make that call...only God is.

 

[KingJ]

IF anyone is elect by God's predestined choice he will hear the gospel
and receive Jesus. It may even be by a dream, vision, or other
supernatural means. God loves His elect and all of them will choose to
receive Jesus.

Lesjude, are you a Christian? You do know that Christianity 101 is that we have true free will.
You would serve and give up everything to follow a God that doesn't give us that?

Sadly, scriptural debate with 5 point Calvinists is so circular. What you need to do is get a dictionary. Go and look up the meaning of the words 'God is no respecter of persons'. God did not want our free will to be a mystery. God is good. God is just. God is impartial on mankind. Do you have difficulty grasping God '''is''' ? Perhaps that is the discussion we should have and not justifying a satanic view of God? God being partial is satanic, you do get that? Go ask a black guy if he sees the klu klux klan as Godly.

Then if you are really up for a discussion on logic, I dare you to talk me out of killing my baby. If God shows limited atonement (5th point Calvinism) then....I will kill my baby. As God would surely not send babies to hell.....I dare you to have a discussion of logic with me! Otherwise I will just continue to see you in a similar light to the devil. Quoting half truths...''throw yourself off, God will send angels to catch you''...well done you can read English but fail at Christianity! ''don't tempt God'.

God pre-destines, God regenerates AND God is no respecter of persons. Which means all have the opportunity to be pre-destined and regenerated. Is it really that hard to grasp?

You say God is sovereign, do you know the difference between inherent and total omniscience?

 

[lesjude]

Lesjude, are you a Christian? You do know that Christianity 101 is that we have true free will.
You would serve and give up everything to follow a God that doesn't give us that?

Please give scripture for your assertion. Freewill is nothing but a name for how and to what extent people choose to disobey God. A beleiver gives up that freewill to follow the will of God which means the death of the self life. If Jesus is not Lord of all He is not savior at all. The essence of sin is maintaining your right to your own "freewill" or self life. That is Christianity 101.
Romans 12:1-2

New King James Version (NKJV)

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you
present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.1 Corinthians 6:19-20


New King James Version (NKJV)

19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[a] and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Here is the attitude of an elect believer who is in Christ:
1 John 5:2-4

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.


Sadly, scriptural debate with 5 point Calvinists is so circular. What you need to do is get a dictionary. Go and look up the meaning of the words 'God is no respecter of persons'. God did not want our free will to be a mystery. God is good. God is just. God is impartial on mankind. Do you have difficulty grasping God '''is''' ? Perhaps that is the discussion we should have and not justifying a satanic view of God? God being partial is satanic, you do get that? Go ask a black guy if he sees the klu klux klan as Godly.

I am NOT a Calvinist. Predestination/election is taught over and over in the Bible in both OT and NT.
Please give one example in the NT where anyone of the apostles, Christ, or anyone else gave a gospel message that sinners were told God loved them. Please give one scripture where the love of God is addressed to sinners that it is not addressing those ELECT that God loved while they were still sinners who at the time they were being spoken to had received salvation.
God loved sinners so much He drowned them all but 8. The 8 were His elect chosen from before time began by God's own SOVEREIGN choice. The ones that drowned all rejected the FOOLISHNESS of Noah's preaching by their own freewill choice. Noah recieved grace first before he obeyed which had NOTHING to do with ANY choice he made. The NT is the same:
1 Corinthians 1:23-27

New King James Version (NKJV)

23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[a] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But
God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the
wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame
the things which are mighty;

Then if you are really up for a discussion on logic, I dare you to talk me out of killing my baby. If God shows limited atonement (5th point Calvinism) then....I will kill my baby. As God would surely not send babies to hell.....I dare you to have a discussion of logic with me! Otherwise I will just continue to see you in a similar light to the devil. Quoting half truths...''throw yourself off, God will send angels to catch you''...well done you can read English but fail at Christianity! ''don't tempt God'.

You are under the assumption that all babies at death go to heaven. The babies of believers do because they are sanctified by a believing parent. The rest are given no guarantee of salvation by the Bible. The problem is you and many Christians are humanists and then try to place your values as God's values.
Psalm 58:3

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;

They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Romans 9:11-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[

God pre-destines, God regenerates AND God is no respecter of persons. Which means all have the opportunity to be pre-destined and regenerated. Is it really that hard to grasp?

You say God is sovereign, do you know the difference between inherent and total omniscience?

Please explain to me how all can have the opportunity to be predestined from before time began if they had taken no action. If you mean that God looked down history and predestined those who would choose Him then grace is not grace. They did someting of their own will to deserve salvation. That is utter nonsense.You are saying that God chose them becuse they chose Him. The Bible clearly says the opposite.
Please read this again s-l-o-w-l-y saying every word.
Romans 9:11-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[