Does God Love Sinners?

[Axehead]

I love the theological systems that people create to explain how they understand God's plan. Yet, most if not all theological systems start with their explanation of how God will carry out His plan without ever taking into consideration the character of God or the Christo-centricity of the Bible.

You can see how men went to one extreme (Augustiniaism, Calvinism) and then reacted with opposite extremes of (Pelagianism, Arminiaism). In one extreme they talk about the sovereign determinism of God where man is an automaton, robot, puppet and has been rendered completely passive with no responsibility or choice in his interactions with God's sovereign determinism. Yet, in the other extreme man is in full control, engaged in his own performance and works apart from intimate relationship with God. God is basically irrelevant in both extremes and man is just executing the procedures and behavioral concepts of his pet religious system. Both extremes lead to false, cultish belief systems.

In either case, I would not want to dwell with that kind of God, in eternity. Absolutely NOT!!

Have you ever noticed that no one wants to take any personal responsibility in their "carefully thought out" theological systems. Though man seeks to systematize the Bible and create individual belief systems, the Bible is not a theological system. Men who see the Centrality of Christ throughout the Bible do not see a system of theology or a belief-system. Doctrines and belief-systems will always focus on religion but not Christ. Christ is Christianity and Christianity is Christ. Christianity is not Calvinism, Arminiaism, Pelagianism, Augustiniaism, or any other "ism".

Jesus' teaching was about HIMSELF. He is the essence of Christian thought and teaching.

TRUTH is a PERSON and not a belief-system of doctrinal theology by which orthodoxy is logically and rationally arrived at.

Jesus Christ is LIFE. He is Life, EXCLUSIVELY. There is life in nothing and no one else, especially men's belief-systems.

John 14:6 I am the way, the truth and the life.

Christianity is not an "ism". All isms do, is reduce the spiritual reality of Christianity by trying to formulate Christianity as an ideological belief-system of procedures and behavior that never can contain the supernatural activity of the Living God.

God will never be confined to man's little box or bottle and YES, you do have a responsibility towards Him. You are not a robot, puppet or automaton and neither is God a myth or figure-head leaving the whole "operation" of Christianity to you.

Axehead

 

[lesjude]

I love the theological systems that people create to explain how they understand God's plan. Yet, most if not all theological systems start with their explanation of how God will carry out His plan without ever taking into consideration the character of God or the Christo-centricity of the Bible.

You can see how men went to one extreme (Augustiniaism, Calvinism) and then reacted with opposite extremes of (Pelagianism, Arminiaism). In one extreme they talk about the sovereign determinism of God where man is an automaton, robot, puppet and has been rendered completely passive with no responsibility or choice in his interactions with God's sovereign determinism. Yet, in the other extreme man is in full control, engaged in his own performance and works apart from intimate relationship with God. God is basically irrelevant in both extremes and man is just executing the procedures and behavioral concepts of his pet religious system. Both extremes lead to false, cultish belief systems.

In either case, I would not want to dwell with that kind of God, in eternity. Absolutely NOT!!

Have you ever noticed that no one wants to take any personal responsibility in their "carefully thought out" theological systems. Though man seeks to systematize the Bible and create individual belief systems, the Bible is not a theological system. Men who see the Centrality of Christ throughout the Bible do not see a system of theology or a belief-system. Doctrines and belief-systems will always focus on religion but not Christ. Christ is Christianity and Christianity is Christ. Christianity is not Calvinism, Arminiaism, Pelagianism, Augustiniaism, or any other "ism".

Jesus' teaching was about HIMSELF. He is the essence of Christian thought and teaching.

TRUTH is a PERSON and not a belief-system of doctrinal theology by which orthodoxy is logically and rationally arrived at.

Jesus Christ is LIFE. He is Life, EXCLUSIVELY. There is life in nothing and no one else, especially men's belief-systems.

John 14:6 I am the way, the truth and the life.

Christianity is not an "ism". All isms do, is reduce the spiritual reality of Christianity by trying to formulate Christianity as an ideological belief-system of procedures and behavior that never can contain the supernatural activity of the Living God.

God will never be confined to man's little box or bottle and YES, you do have a responsibility towards Him. You are not a robot, puppet or automaton and neither is God a myth or figure-head leaving the whole "operation" of Christianity to you.

Axehead

Here is what Jesus said in His earthly ministry about His elect saints and those who were not elect:


John 6:37
New King James Version (NKJV)


37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.


John 6:44
New King James Version (NKJV)


44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:65
New King James Version (NKJV)


65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Please explain to me why you believe these mean anyone can come to Jesus by His own freewill choice.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

What is LOVE? If God loves sinners, how does he show it? If he loves all sinners, how is it not all will be in heaven. Does he express his love differently between sinner and saint, if so, how?

Food for thought.

 

[Axehead]

What is LOVE? If God loves sinners, how does he show it? If he loves all sinners, how is it not all will be in heaven. Does he express his love differently between sinner and saint, if so, how?

Food for thought.

Hi JB,

You and lesjude are examples of what I wrote in post #42. Lesjude uses a few scriptures to show his view of God's sovereign determinism (extreme) without showing scriptures that reveal man's free choice and accompanying responsibility in that choice. There is a tension between God's sovereignty and Man's choice that must be balanced and this is seen in the life of Jesus as He walked the earth and interacted with people and in the Bible as a whole. This teaching is not hidden. However, many search the Scriptures thinking that in them they have eternal life. You are going to the other extreme of Universalism (all saved because God is love). Universalists are put off by the extreme determinism of God's sovereignty as taught by Calvinists and various offshoots of Calvinism. So, they have created their own belief system and superimpose their morality on God.

In both cases, man has no responsibility or choice. It is quite interesting, isn't it? The belief systems that man makes absolves him of any responsibility or culpability. And religious man can make it work in either extreme which is fascinating. In one extreme only an "Elect" are determined saved by God and there is nothing non-elect men can do to get into that special club or anything Elect men have to be concerned regarding their behaviour from being put out of the "club". In the other extreme, all men are saved and there is nothing men can do to get into it or out of it.

It is all just a done deal, right?

So, here we have God supposedly making man in His image and giving them freedom of choice, but no responsibility in the choice of following Him or not following Him. Reminds me of little boys playing with toy soldiers on their bedroom floor.

One extreme shows hatred for non-elect and the other extreme shows love for all.

God is calling, but in essence, no one really needs to answer him. And that is how "dolls" or "little toy soldiers" act. They don't...they're just manipulated by the Sovereign Master.

Axehead

 

[williemac]

Here is what Jesus said in His earthly ministry about His elect saints and those who were not elect:
John 6:37
New King James Version (NKJV)


37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:44
New King James Version (NKJV)


44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65
New King James Version (NKJV)


65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Please explain to me why you believe these mean anyone can come to Jesus by His own freewill choice.

Very simple. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. (refer to Luke18:10-14, James 4:6). These reveal that one is required of God to humble himself. Therefore God draws the humble, resists the proud. Faith is not the qualification for life. It is the method by which we receive it. Free will is an unfortunately weak term. There is not a universal agreement as to its meaning. But one thing we can see in scripture is that man can think, reason, and respond. One can understand his need for mercy and salvation through the acknowledgment and confession of his sin. The humble will respond to the gospel far differently than those who are self righteous and self justified.

 

[Axehead]

Here is what Jesus said in His earthly ministry about His elect saints and those who were not elect:
John 6:37
New King James Version (NKJV)


37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:44
New King James Version (NKJV)




44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65
New King James Version (NKJV)


65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Please explain to me why you believe these mean anyone can come to Jesus by His own freewill choice.

Is God's offer of salvation to all men a sincere offer?

Is there any such thing as an "irresistible gift." I don't think so. A gift normally has to be received or rejected by the one that the gift is being offered to. Is this examle (irresistible gifts) prevalent in our society or is does it just exist in the minds of theologians?

Even people that win lotteries had to DO something to win.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The "Free GIFT" came to ALL MEN.

Again, there is no such thing as an "irresistible gift", otherwise it is not a gift. Gift's can be resisted (rejected). If a gift cannot be resisted or rejected then it was forced on you and therefore could not be defined as a gift.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Axehead,

I think you misunderstood JB's post. I don't get the impression he's a universalist. He was trying to provoke some logical thought. One of them, I think, is that if God loves all men, then some men must resist His love, otherwise all men would end up in heaven. What d'you think?


Hi lesjude,

The Psalms are full of the exaltation of God, and of exhortations to declare Him to and among the heathen. I looked up John 6 in view of your quoting from it, and noticed at v 64 that Jesus had said: ' But there are some of you that believe not.' We know from Romans 10:17 that faith comes by hearing, so the idea that some 'believe not' necessarily informs that they had heard something which they decided not to believe/receive.

Further back in the chapter, I found that Jesus had quoted this from the OT in v 45 'It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.' See that word 'all'? That's important.

The other little study I did, was to look up 'whosoever', as I know that Jesus said it many many times. I was surprised to see how many times it occurred in the OT, though, and glancing through the verses, I noticed one, which I am quoting in context:

2 Chronicles 14:1 - 4 So Abijah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead. In his days the land was quiet ten years. And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God: for he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves: and commanded Judah to seek the Lord God of their fathers, and to do the law and the commandment.

15:1 And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded: 2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you. 3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law. 4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the Lord God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them. 5 And in those timesthere was no peace to him that went out, nor to him that came in, but great vexationswere upon all the inhabitants of the countries. 6 And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity. 7 Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded. 8 And when Asa heard these words, and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he took courage, and put away the abominable idols out of all the land of Judah and Benjamin, and out of the cities which he had taken from mount Ephraim, and renewed the altar of the Lord, that was before the porch of the Lord. 9 And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and the strangers with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon: for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that the Lord his God was with him. 10 So they gathered themselves together at Jerusalem in the third month, in the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa. 11 And they offered unto the Lord the same time, of the spoil which they had brought, seven hundred oxen and seven thousand sheep. 12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;13 That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. 14 And they sware unto the Lord with a loud voice, and with shouting, and with trumpets, and with cornets. 15 And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the Lord gave them rest round about.


The above verses seem to declare unequivocally that God has already made His will known to man, and those who seek Him and do it, will be received.

 

[lesjude]

Very simple. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. (refer to Luke18:10-14, James 4:6). These reveal that one is required of God to humble himself. Therefore God draws the humble, resists the proud. Faith is not the qualification for life. It is the method by which we receive it. Free will is an unfortunately weak term. There is not a universal agreement as to its meaning. But one thing we can see in scripture is that man can think, reason, and respond. One can understand his need for mercy and salvation through the acknowledgment and confession of his sin. The humble will respond to the gospel far differently than those who are self righteous and self justified.

Therefore you are saying that it is NOT GRACE because man can do something i.e. be humble to receive salvation. Nonsense! Only those predestined elect who know/realize they are SINNERS under the wrath of God will respond to the gospel and receive salvation.
I will agree that after one is saved any pride must go. The Holy Spirit deals with that issue in every elect Saint which is who James is talking to, not sinners in the world. The other scripture is addressed to the religious and only the predestined elect can escape the trap of self righteousness and receive Jesus.

Hi Axehead,

I think you misunderstood JB's post. I don't get the impression he's a universalist. He was trying to provoke some logical thought. One of them, I think, is that if God loves all men, then some men must resist His love, otherwise all men would end up in heaven. What d'you think?


Hi lesjude,

The Psalms are full of the exaltation of God, and of exhortations to declare Him to and among the heathen. I looked up John 6 in view of your quoting from it, and noticed at v 64 that Jesus had said: ' But there are some of you that believe not.' We know from Romans 10:17 that faith comes by hearing, so the idea that some 'believe not' necessarily informs that they had heard something which they decided not to believe/receive.

Further back in the chapter, I found that Jesus had quoted this from the OT in v 45 'It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.' See that word 'all'? That's important.

The other little study I did, was to look up 'whosoever', as I know that Jesus said it many many times. I was surprised to see how many times it occurred in the OT, though, and glancing through the verses, I noticed one, which I am quoting in context:

2 Chronicles 14:1 - 4 So Abijah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead. In his days the land was quiet ten years. And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God: for he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves: and commanded Judah to seek the Lord God of their fathers, and to do the law and the commandment.

15:1 And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded: 2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you. 3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law. 4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the Lord God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them. 5 And in those timesthere was no peace to him that went out, nor to him that came in, but great vexationswere upon all the inhabitants of the countries. 6 And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity. 7 Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded. 8 And when Asa heard these words, and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he took courage, and put away the abominable idols out of all the land of Judah and Benjamin, and out of the cities which he had taken from mount Ephraim, and renewed the altar of the Lord, that was before the porch of the Lord. 9 And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and the strangers with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon: for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that the Lord his God was with him. 10 So they gathered themselves together at Jerusalem in the third month, in the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa. 11 And they offered unto the Lord the same time, of the spoil which they had brought, seven hundred oxen and seven thousand sheep. 12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;13 That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. 14 And they sware unto the Lord with a loud voice, and with shouting, and with trumpets, and with cornets. 15 And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the Lord gave them rest round about.


The above verses seem to declare unequivocally that God has already made His will known to man, and those who seek Him and do it, will be received.

Everyone receives the general call i.e. "whosoever". ONLY the predestined elect hear the effectual call and make a freewill choice to respond ONLY because from God's side they receive grace to do it. Jesus is not going to contradict Himself because He clearly said in John 6 3 times ONLY those given Him or drawn by the father can come to Him. Every generation from the beginning of time had its elect that received grace to be saved and no one else.

Is God's offer of salvation to all men a sincere offer?

Is there any such thing as an "irresistible gift." I don't think so. A gift normally has to be received or rejected by the one that the gift is being offered to. Is this examle (irresistible gifts) prevalent in our society or is does it just exist in the minds of theologians?

Even people that win lotteries had to DO something to win.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The "Free GIFT" came to ALL MEN.

Again, there is no such thing as an "irresistible gift", otherwise it is not a gift. Gift's can be resisted (rejected). If a gift cannot be resisted or rejected then it was forced on you and therefore could not be defined as a gift.

Yes, the free gift came to all men and on that basis God will judge them. However only the elect will receive the grace to receive that free gift. The Bible clearly says no one accepts Christ. He accepts them. They receive Him.God does NOT love the non elect sinners beyond what Acts 14:17 says. In fact if you read Romans 1:18-32 God's feelings are quite clear.

Hi JB,

You and lesjude are examples of what I wrote in post #42. Lesjude uses a few scriptures to show his view of God's sovereign determinism (extreme) without showing scriptures that reveal man's free choice and accompanying responsibility in that choice. There is a tension between God's sovereignty and Man's choice that must be balanced and this is seen in the life of Jesus as He walked the earth and interacted with people and in the Bible as a whole. This teaching is not hidden. However, many search the Scriptures thinking that in them they have eternal life. You are going to the other extreme of Universalism (all saved because God is love). Universalists are put off by the extreme determinism of God's sovereignty as taught by Calvinists and various offshoots of Calvinism. So, they have created their own belief system and superimpose their morality on God.

In both cases, man has no responsibility or choice. It is quite interesting, isn't it? The belief systems that man makes absolves him of any responsibility or culpability. And religious man can make it work in either extreme which is fascinating. In one extreme only an "Elect" are determined saved by God and there is nothing non-elect men can do to get into that special club or anything Elect men have to be concerned regarding their behaviour from being put out of the "club". In the other extreme, all men are saved and there is nothing men can do to get into it or out of it.

It is all just a done deal, right?

Wrong. The elect MUST hear the gospel and respond to the effectual call. God simply gives them grace to do so otherwise no one would as Romans 3:10-18 clearly says.

iv>
So, here we have God supposedly making man in His image and giving them freedom of choice, but no responsibility in the choice of following Him or not following Him. Reminds me of little boys playing with toy soldiers on their bedroom floor.

One extreme shows hatred for non-elect and the other extreme shows love for all.

God is calling, but in essence, no one really needs to answer him. And that is how "dolls" or "little toy soldiers" act. They don't...they're just manipulated by the Sovereign Master.

Axehead

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Hi Axehead,

I think you misunderstood JB's post. I don't get the impression he's a universalist. He was trying to provoke some logical thought. One of them, I think, is that if God loves all men, then some men must resist His love, otherwise all men would end up in heaven. What d'you think?


Hi lesjude,

The Psalms are full of the exaltation of God, and of exhortations to declare Him to and among the heathen. I looked up John 6 in view of your quoting from it, and noticed at v 64 that Jesus had said: ' But there are some of you that believe not.' We know from Romans 10:17 that faith comes by hearing, so the idea that some 'believe not' necessarily informs that they had heard something which they decided not to believe/receive.

Further back in the chapter, I found that Jesus had quoted this from the OT in v 45 'It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.' See that word 'all'? That's important.

The other little study I did, was to look up 'whosoever', as I know that Jesus said it many many times. I was surprised to see how many times it occurred in the OT, though, and glancing through the verses, I noticed one, which I am quoting in context:

2 Chronicles 14:1 - 4 So Abijah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead. In his days the land was quiet ten years. And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God: for he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves: and commanded Judah to seek the Lord God of their fathers, and to do the law and the commandment.

15:1 And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded: 2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you. 3 Now for a long season Israel hath been without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law. 4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the Lord God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them. 5 And in those timesthere was no peace to him that went out, nor to him that came in, but great vexationswere upon all the inhabitants of the countries. 6 And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity. 7 Be ye strong therefore, and let not your hands be weak: for your work shall be rewarded. 8 And when Asa heard these words, and the prophecy of Oded the prophet, he took courage, and put away the abominable idols out of all the land of Judah and Benjamin, and out of the cities which he had taken from mount Ephraim, and renewed the altar of the Lord, that was before the porch of the Lord. 9 And he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and the strangers with them out of Ephraim and Manasseh, and out of Simeon: for they fell to him out of Israel in abundance, when they saw that the Lord his God was with him. 10 So they gathered themselves together at Jerusalem in the third month, in the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa. 11 And they offered unto the Lord the same time, of the spoil which they had brought, seven hundred oxen and seven thousand sheep. 12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;13 That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. 14 And they sware unto the Lord with a loud voice, and with shouting, and with trumpets, and with cornets. 15 And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the Lord gave them rest round about.


The above verses seem to declare unequivocally that God has already made His will known to man, and those who seek Him and do it, will be received.

Spot on Dragonfly, with your opening staement. SHALOM

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

I think you misunderstood JB's post. I don't get the impression he's a universalist. He was trying to provoke some logical thought. One of them, I think, is that if God loves all men, then some men must resist His love, otherwise all men would end up in heaven. What d'you think?

Thank you, dragonfly. My apologies JB for misunderstanding your post. I was thinking later that I may have misunderstood it when I was reading your post about Judas going to hell. So, my content is still correct about Universalists and I am glad to know that you do not subscribe to that belief system of irresponsibility. I was also thinking that reformed Baptist and Universalists don't really go together.

Axehead

Wrong. The elect MUST hear the gospel and respond to the effectual call. God simply gives them grace to do so otherwise no one would as Romans 3:10-18 clearly says.

Is it an act of their will that causes them to respond? What is the manifestation of their response? Do they repent? Or are they regenerated before they have been called or are they regenerated after they respond? Again, what is the manifestation of their response?

Does your Bible say that the "grace of God hath appeared to all men"? What is the point of the grace of God appearing or manifesting to all men?
Tit_2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Why doesn't this next verse say "to His elect" instead of "toward man"?
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

To answer your earlier questions:

By lesjude

Here is what Jesus said in His earthly ministry about His elect saints and those who were not elect:
John 6:37
New King James Version (NKJV)

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.


John 6:44
New King James Version (NKJV)

That this will of the Father was not a sovereign, eternal decree is revealed from the fact that one of those "given" to Christ was a devil (John 6:70) who was lost (John 17:12), and some of those who came to him went back (John 6:66). And if the second half of John 6:37 is divorced from the first then people who believe in Unconditional Election have a problem: others besides the ones "elected" could come to Christ and be accepted as the first and not be cast out. This would mean that there are two wills of the Father corresponding to these two classes of people: that Christ should lose none of those given to Him (John 6:39), and that "everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life" (John 6:40).

lesjude
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who
sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65
New King James Version
(NKJV)

Sometimes this verse is misread by Calvinists and put into the same class as was previously looked at. That this giving of the Father was not a sovereign, eternal decree is apparent from the fact that Jesus Christ said He would give "everlasting life" to the multitude (John 6:27). Was every member of this group one of the "elect"? It is evident that not everyone received everlasting life for some "believed not" (John 6:36).

Axehead

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Thank you, dragonfly. My apologies JB for misunderstanding your post. I was thinking later that I may have misunderstood it when I was reading your post about Judas going to hell. So, my content is still correct about Universalists and I am glad to know that you do not subscribe to that belief system of irresponsibility. I was also thinking that reformed Baptist and Universalists don't really go together.

Axehead


Thanks! To be a Universalist is to make void the cross. GOD FORBID!



















































Is it an act of their will that causes them to respond? What is the manifestation of their response? Do they repent? Or are they regenerated before they have been called or are they regenerated after they respond? Again, what is the manifestation of their response?

Does your Bible say that the "grace of God hath appeared to all men"? What is the point of the grace of God appearing or manifesting to all men?
Tit_2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Why doesn't this next verse say "to His elect" instead of "toward man"?
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

To answer your earlier questions:


That this will of the Father was not a sovereign, eternal decree is revealed from the fact that one of those "given" to Christ was a devil (John 6:70) who was lost (John 17:12), and some of those who came to him went back (John 6:66). And if the second half of John 6:37 is divorced from the first then people who believe in Unconditional Election have a problem: others besides the ones "elected" could come to Christ and be accepted as the first and not be cast out. This would mean that there are two wills of the Father corresponding to these two classes of people: that Christ should lose none of those given to Him (John 6:39), and that "everyone which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life" (John 6:40).



Sometimes this verse is misread by Calvinists and put into the same class as was previously looked at. That this giving of the Father was not a sovereign, eternal decree is apparent from the fact that Jesus Christ said He would give "everlasting life" to the multitude (John 6:27). Was every member of this group one of the "elect"? It is evident that not everyone received everlasting life for some "believed not" (John 6:36).

Axehead

Thank you, dragonfly. My apologies JB for misunderstanding your post. I was thinking later that I may have misunderstood it when I was reading your post about Judas going to hell. So, my content is still correct about Universalists and I am glad to know that you do not subscribe to that belief system of irresponsibility. I was also thinking that reformed Baptist and Universalists don't really go together.<br /><br />Axehead<br /><br /><br />Thanks Axehead! To be a Universalist is to make void the cross. GOD FORBID!

 

[mjrhealth]

I think lesjude. you missed the point. All these discussions on these forums are about the hearts of men, what they speak reveals their heart. You claim to be His elect yet all you speak says otherwise. God will in the end demonstrate His Love to all mankind, How, I do not know, and it is not my place, but we so limit God that we miss out on the best things in Him. Jesus "became" sin on the cross, so much so that God Himself had to turn away from Him, with such a great sacrifice one can only expect a greater salvation. This should be more about, does God love christians, for at times they are worse than the worst of the sinners yet they can often not see it that way.

Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I hope you understand what He was saying to the pharisees.

In All His Love

 

[dragonfly]

Thanks, Axehead and JB,


Hi lesjude,

Everyone receives the general call i.e. "whosoever". ONLY the predestined elect hear the effectual call and make a freewill choice to respond ONLY because from God's side they receive grace to do it. Jesus is not going to contradict Himself because He clearly said in John 6 3 times ONLY those given Him or drawn by the father can come to Him. Every generation from the beginning of time had its elect that received grace to be saved and no one else.

Hmm.

For God to be truly just, as scripture claims Him to be, everyone must have the same opportunity to believe. The idea that God withholds His grace from some, rather than that some reject His grace, is definitely troublesome to me.

We know that that God so loved the world that gave His only-begotten Son that whosoever believes shall not perish, but have eternal life. Isn't the giving of Jesus Christ, by whom came grace and truth (according to John), enough grace to enable a person to respond?

Why accuse God of not giving them grace?

Why not accuse the unbelieving of unbelief, (just as Jesus did)? Psalm 95:7, 8, 9, 10, 11.


Regarding 'the generation' (singular) of Jesus Christ, I put it to you that it is singular because we enter into sonship with God. He is not ashamed to call us brethren. Although we are all strung out down the centuries since Pentecost, we are just one 'generation', and it is HIS (re-)generation.

He came as a baby, as we do, and when we enter into into His life by the Holy Spirit, through His death and resurrection, we are of the exact same 'generation' (spiritual) as He is. When He complained about the 'generation' to whom He was speaking, He was as much referring to their fallen flesh, as to the number of their years. In their flesh they saw all that He pronounced upon them, because they would not enter into the Spirit. You and I cannot have spiritual children in the way that God can. That's another reason there is only one 'generation' - the generation of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 8:18: Behold, I and the children whom the Lord has given me
are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the Lord of hosts, which dwells in mount Zion. Hebrews 2:13

 

[KingJ]

I am NOT a Calvinist. Predestination/election is taught over and over in the Bible in both OT and NT.
Please give one example in the NT where anyone of the apostles, Christ, or anyone else gave a gospel message that sinners were told God loved them. Please give one scripture where the love of God is addressed to sinners that it is not addressing those ELECT that God loved while they were still sinners who at the time they were being spoken to had received salvation.
God loved sinners so much He drowned them all but 8. The 8 were His elect chosen from before time began by God's own SOVEREIGN choice. The ones that drowned all rejected the FOOLISHNESS of Noah's preaching by their own freewill choice. Noah recieved grace first before he obeyed which had NOTHING to do with ANY choice he made. The NT is the same:
1 Corinthians 1:23-27

New King James Version (NKJV)

23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks[a] foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But
God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the
wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame
the things which are mighty;
You are under the assumption that all babies at death go to heaven. The babies of believers do because they are sanctified by a believing parent. The rest are given no guarantee of salvation by the Bible. The problem is you and many Christians are humanists and then try to place your values as God's values.
Psalm 58:3

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;

They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Romans 9:11-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[

Please explain to me how all can have the opportunity to be predestined from before time began if they had taken no action. If you mean that God looked down history and predestined those who would choose Him then grace is not grace. They did someting of their own will to deserve salvation. That is utter nonsense.You are saying that God chose them becuse they chose Him. The Bible clearly says the opposite.

Why would God warn sinners many times before their destruction?

You would serve a God that sent babies to hell??? You believe our God would send babies to hell??? Have you ever held a baby? See, your argument fails terribly at logic / common sense. Sadly your silly belief is in the name of Christianity and not satanism where it belongs.

God is impartial (Rom 2:11). How do you get God is partial? Go read the dictionary meaning of ''willful'' sin (Heb 10:26) and partiality.

I don't know what is more shocking. The fact that you construe such simple scripture or the realization that you would serve a God that shows partiality and send babies to hell.

You do know that the Germans of WW2, the kul klux klan and those who started apartheid will agree with you.

Please read this again s-l-o-w-l-y saying every word.
Romans 9:11-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[

How does this support your view? You you are thinking twisted from the onset.

What you need to do is read Romans 9 WITH the rest of the bible!! Example, John 3:16 (and all other scripture saying God is impartial). Hopefully you will see that when scripture says something like ''So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.'' you realize that God has mercy on ALL. He could have had it on a few as we are unable to have a say in the matter...but He has it on all. He gives grace to whom He wants...whom He wants, is all.

Please read the second part of vs Rom 9:33...: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Now please go read the dictionary definition of 'whosoever'.

Just use your common sense! look at Nineveh, Sodom and Gomorrah. WHY did God send propehts to all??? Why did God spare Nineveh? It is because THEY repented. It is not rocket science.

God hates sin. God loves humans and all of His creation. God does not even hate the devil. If God did, why would He give him the time of day in the wilderness? Was Jesus unable to call 1000 angels to take him out?

 

[Angelina]

lesjude

He loves His elect while they are sinners. You are saying that God doesnot know who will be saved and who won't. That means He is not soveereign and not God. He is both.

What I am saying is that God knows who are his and we are not privy to that information even though we may think we've got it worked out. We are created and he is eternal...surely that is enough to understand that we cannot work out the things pertaining to God and his decision's relating to who are his nor are we called to do so....

 

[KingJ]

The thing is, all those who believe like this have not thought it through. If I had to one-day in heaven see my wife or kid suffering in hell, purely because God showed favouritism with me and not them...I will pull the middle finger to God and all who agree with Him being partial and jump into hell with them.

The truth is, God has nothing to hide. We will have increased understanding in heaven. He will have to dumb us down if He had anything to hide. He will pass the test of He is good. He is impartial. Our best jduges will be more then welcome to try find fault with God.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

God doesn't hate anybody, not even Satan. Sinners sadden Him, and it can turn to anger. Many times in the Bible you see this happen, from the anger of Adam and Eve's fall to flooding the Earth- he is angered and yet grieved. Since He is God and must be zealous of good, His hands are tied when it comes to judgement.

 

[lesjude]

Why would God warn sinners many times before their destruction?

God is long suffering. He is also making sure the elect are warned and receive it. Perhaps a few will repent and be allowed to live or receive salvation like Rahab who was elect. The whole city of Nineveh was spared temporarily.





You would serve a God that sent babies to hell??? You believe our God would send babies to hell??? Have you ever held a baby? See, your argument fails terribly at logic / common sense. Sadly your silly belief is in the name of Christianity and not satanism where it belongs.

You think like a humanist believing every human has intrinsic value. God does not think that way. Age is no guarantee of salvation. Election is.


Psalm 58:3
New King James Version (NKJV)



3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

Here is what the Bible says for the babies of the saved elect and none others:


1 Corinthians 7:14
New King James Version (NKJV)


14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving
wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be
unclean, but now they are holy.



God ordered the extermination of men, women, children, babies and pregnant mothers of all the tribes of the "ites" under His judgement in the land of Canaan. All went to hell including the babies. Everything God does is PERFECTLY fair, just and good.
Here is an example of God's grace and mercy on a child: 1 Kings 14:1-3, 7-13.

God is impartial (Rom 2:11). How do you get God is partial? Go read the dictionary meaning of ''willful'' sin (Heb 10:26) and partiality.

If you mean by willful that a born again Christian can lose salvation you are correct. Being "born again" is no guarantee of election. Salvation is a WALK of faith, holiness and obedience. Only the elect will endure to the end as the Bible clearly says. Please read Matthew 13:18-23, Matthew 25:1-13.

Clearly God elected some for salvation before time began. If you are accusing God of partiality because of this you are lodging a very unwise charge against a sovereign God. Here is an example of what humanist thinking would call "partiality" BY God:


Romans 9:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)

11 (for the children
not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose
of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who
calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[b]

I don't know what is more shocking. The fact that you construe such simple scripture or the realization that you would serve a God that shows partiality and send babies to hell.

Their parents make freewill choices to continue in sin that put babies in hell. Clearly age is no guarantee of anyone's salvation.

You do know that the Germans of WW2, the kul klux klan and those who started apartheid will agree with you.
How does this support your view? You you are thinking twisted from the onset.

If they do they would be in agreement with the Bible. However most in
these groups were quite religious and even professed Christianity
including Hitler. A lot of the KKK were "good" church members.

What you need to do is read Romans 9 WITH the rest of the bible!! Example, John 3:16 (and all other scripture saying God is impartial). Hopefully you will see that when scripture says something like ''So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.'' you realize that God has mercy on ALL. He could have had it on a few as we are unable to have a say in the matter...but He has it on all. He gives grace to whom He wants...whom He wants, is all.

Yes, God does show mercy on all. He blesses sinners as it says in Matthew 5:45, Acts 14:17, and Job 21:7-16. God allows them to live even in their rebellion and sin. However this is not like the love God has for His elect saints. See 1 Corinthians 2:9. God gives saving grace only to those He predestined from before time began. Who God wants is the predestined elect.

Please read the second part of vs Rom 9:33...: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Now please go read the dictionary definition of 'whosoever'.

Only the elect are given the grace to believe. Only God knows who they are so the message of the gospel must of necessity be given to ALL or "whosoever". If God had not elected some none would ever be saved. Read Romans 3:9-18. It says NONE and ALL. The elect receive because God draws them. He knows them as saved from before time.

Just use your common sense! look at Nineveh, Sodom and Gomorrah. WHY did God send propehts to all??? Why did God spare Nineveh? It is because THEY repented. It is not rocket science.

He sent His prophets for His elect which have been in every generation. Nineveh repented of their gross evil. This does NOT mean any of them were saved/elect. In fact their repentance was not at all enduring. They later destroyed Israel which Jonah realized would happen and refused to go at first and was angry that God spared them. The city was later destroyed.
Romans 9:18

New King James Version (NKJV)


18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

God hates sin. God loves humans and all of His creation. God does not even hate the devil. If God did, why would He give him the time of day in the wilderness? Was Jesus unable to call 1000 angels to take him out?

Here is some words God uses to describe His feelings toward sinners: held in derision, spurn, HATE, abhor, despised, laughed at.
Jesus even called Herod a name! Please read Romans 1:18-32 for God's comprehensive opinion of non elect sinners. God has full control over Satan and ANYTHING he is allowed to do totally follows God's predestined sovereign plan made before time began.

I think lesjude. you missed the point. All these discussions on these forums are about the hearts of men, what they speak reveals their heart. You claim to be His elect yet all you speak says otherwise. God will in the end demonstrate His Love to all mankind, How, I do not know, and it is not my place, but we so limit God that we miss out on the best things in Him. Jesus "became" sin on the cross, so much so that God Himself had to turn away from Him, with such a great sacrifice one can only expect a greater salvation. This should be more about, does God love christians, for at times they are worse than the worst of the sinners yet they can often not see it that way.

No, Jesus was NEVER more pleasing to the father than when He was on the cross and Jesus was ALWAYS pleasing to the Father. I assume you are not saying that Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and God the Father were ever separated. If you are that is heresy. The Father NEVER turned away from the Son. If you are saying Jesus was anything but a sinless, spotless, offering for sin paying our penalty as our substitute that is also heresy.
Please give scripture that in the end God will demonstrate His love for all mankind because the Bible in general does not say that including Revelation.

iv>
Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I hope you understand what He was saying to the pharisees.

In All His Love

lesjude

What I am saying is that God knows who are his and we are not privy to that information even though we may think we've got it worked out. We are created and he is eternal...surely that is enough to understand that we cannot work out the things pertaining to God and his decision's relating to who are his nor are we called to do so....

I agree.

The thing is, all those who believe like this have not thought it through. If I had to one-day in heaven see my wife or kid suffering in hell, purely because God showed favouritism with me and not them...I will pull the middle finger to God and all who agree with Him being partial and jump into hell with them.

The truth is, God has nothing to hide. We will have increased understanding in heaven. He will have to dumb us down if He had anything to hide. He will pass the test of He is good. He is impartial. Our best jduges will be more then welcome to try find fault with God.

You have already passed judgement on God's sovereignty with your first statement. God does NOT show favoritism by electing some and not others. If He did not elect some none would be saved. Nor would He be showing favoritism if your family were divided between heaven and hell. You have charged God foolishly.

 

[forrestcupp]

There is a huge difference between foreknowing and forcing. God knows who are going to be His, but He lets us make the choice on our own. Choosing salvation doesn't create salvation. If I'm driving down the road and I see a McDonald's on one side and a Taco Bell on the other, and I pull into McDonald's to get a burger, I just chose the burger; I didn't cook and prepare it. We're saved by grace through faith. Grace is what saves us, but it requires our believing and accepting. Guess what? Rom. 12:3 says that God has allotted to each the measure of faith, not just to some elect group. Everyone has the ability to choose God's salvation.

If God is truly sovereign and omnipotent, then it's within His realm of possibility to make every person elect. If it's truly not our choice, then it's not our fault, but God's if we go to hell. If it's possible for God to make every person elect, but He doesn't, then wouldn't that make Him unjust? And on the other hand, if God is the one who chooses people's election status and 1 Timothy 2:4 is true, where it says that God desires all men to be saved, wouldn't that imply that God isn't all powerful? He wants all men to be saved, it's all up to Him who is saved, but obviously all men are not saved, so God must not be very powerful. This is a pretty low opinion of the creator of heaven and earth. It makes a lot more sense to me that God wants us all to be saved, but He doesn't want to force us to be His loving robots, so He leaves the choice up to us. We choose Him; He saves us.

About predestination, Abraham's seed is Christ.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

It's only when we are in Christ that we become Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

We are predestined through Christ.

Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Christ is the one that is predestined, and whoever is in Him is predestined, too, by default. Jesus is like a ship that already has its destination set. Whoever gets on that ship is obviously going to that preset destination. Predestination is not an individual thing. It's the Body of Christ that is predestined. Whoever becomes a part of the Body of Christ becomes part of that predestination. Salvation comes only from God and His grace through the blood of Jesus, but we choose whether to accept it or not.

 

[dragonfly]

Wow! It's a long time since anyone has explained that so succinctly!

About predestination, Abraham's seed is Christ.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

It's only when we are in Christ that we become Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

We are predestined through Christ.

Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Christ is the one that is predestined, and whoever is in Him is predestined, too, by default. Jesus is like a ship that already has its destination set. Whoever gets on that ship is obviously going to that preset destination. Predestination is not an individual thing. It's the Body of Christ that is predestined. Whoever becomes a part of the Body of Christ becomes part of that predestination. Salvation comes only from God and His grace through the blood of Jesus, but we choose whether to accept it or not.

Thank you!


I would like to add the following segment of a post by MTPockets, taken from an old thread. I think it clarifies God's thinking a little further.

'And there is one additional issue which God is unable to do:

To unlawfully steal away from Satan those who are/were employed by the evil one. Satan has every legal right and obligation to pay the wages of sin to everyone who became indebted to him.

This is because God is not only completely good and merciful and kind ... He is also completely just.
It could be said that God's love for us is restrained by His exceeding need to be just.
Jesus came to deliver us from the evil one; not steal us from the evil one.

The words of the Apostle Paul confirm this fact: "Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that leads to sin that leads to death or to obedience which leads to righteousness?” Again, we read: "Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but an obligation --- something owed to him"; "Every sin receives retribution; a reward or wage will be duly paid for every disobedience", (Rom 6:16; 4:4; Heb 2:2).

You are owned by the one you serve. God does not behave unjustly; He cannot steal back the rightful property of the evil one. If God could have justly compelled the evil one to return His property, the redeeming blood would have been unnecessary. This explains why it is that when evil incarnate enters the Lake of Fire, he is legally entitled to drag his possessions with him.'