Does God need man?
- Thread starter Matthias
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I thought if I explained it you would have better knowledge to help me find the right place to post.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
God always has a purpose rather than a plan…..if he wills something to take place, it will happen, (Isa 55:11) but the methods God uses to bring about the implementation of his will, can change due to circumstances that arise as either humans or angels step outside of his permitted use of their free will. He then responds to those circumstances.
The flood of Noah’s day is an example of this as God reacted to the activity of rebel angels in interfering with his purpose. He cleansed the earth at that time, and reset everything to start again.
The scenario in Eden is also a classic example of this. God purposed in the beginning to have a beautiful home for the humans he created. Every provision was made to enjoy all of his creation, on the condition that the humans obey his command not to eat of the one tree that he claimed as his own property.
His purpose did not change, but the method he used to implement it had to accommodate the disobedience that took place, first in a spirit son, and then in his human children.
His allowance of evil in their lives was an object lesson of colossal proportions since this would create precedents for all time to come. Never again would any rebel who wanted to abuse their free will be permitted to take it to the degree that has God permitted in this one off lesson.
In order for his original purpose to be achieved, a detour was necessary and it has accomplished all that God wanted to demonstrate to his angelic sons as well as to his human creation, the folly of disobedience. Both needed to learn that abuse of free will leads to disaster. To experience this first hand would have a deeper impact than anything else to deter such behavior in the future.
From the human standpoint it seems to be taking forever to achieve his goals…but we humans now have a limited lifespan, with time governed by the rotation of our planet. God does not dwell in our timeframe, because he is an infinite Being to whom time is actually meaningless when he has a purpose to fulfill. He will take all the time necessary to bring about his will. As Peter tells us “a thousands years is as one day” to God.
Isaiah 45:7 uses the word “raʿ” in that verse which can mean “evil” but also “calamity” which is a natural by product of evil. The fact that this word has several meanings should give us pause to see how it is used elesewhere in the scriptures…..
It is also translated as “wicked”….”disaster”….”bad”…”harm”….”wild”….”sad”….”ugly”….”unpleasant”….”wrong”…”trouble”…so we see here that it isn’t really saying that God created evil, but that evil is simply the natural opposite of good, causing all those descriptions in it wake.
His toleration of all that abuse of free will can lead to, was for good reasons. But even his prophets at times failed to discern the lesson….because it was still in progress. Only with the coming of the Messiah did it all begin to make sense.
“Real-time consciousness is knowledge of events in the here-and-now. Contraction of real-time consciousness would be the removal of one’s knowledge of events in the here-and-now to a knowledge of events out-of-real-time.
… an omnipotent Deity can indeed have foreknowledge, and here-and-now omniscience. It is, however, due to the Divine exigencies of the cosmos and the Divine plan for it that God contracts God’s consciousness.
Our explication of contraction of here-and now Divine consciousness as a form of Hester* should not be viewed as simply an on/off state. Rather it should be viewed as a range or spectrum, ranging from a high level of real-time conscious state to a totally non-real time conscious state, with infinite multidimensional variations in between.”
(David Birnbaum, God and Evil, pp. 118, 120)
Can God choose to do that?
If so, has God chosen to do that?
*Hester panim
outorah.org
torah.org
… an omnipotent Deity can indeed have foreknowledge, and here-and-now omniscience. It is, however, due to the Divine exigencies of the cosmos and the Divine plan for it that God contracts God’s consciousness.
Our explication of contraction of here-and now Divine consciousness as a form of Hester* should not be viewed as simply an on/off state. Rather it should be viewed as a range or spectrum, ranging from a high level of real-time conscious state to a totally non-real time conscious state, with infinite multidimensional variations in between.”
(David Birnbaum, God and Evil, pp. 118, 120)
Can God choose to do that?
If so, has God chosen to do that?
*Hester panim
The Meaning of Hester Panim - Bechor Shor - OU Torah
In Parshat Vayeilech, God tells Moshe that He will hide His presence from the Jewish people when we sin: The LORD said to Moses: You are soon to lie with
Hester Panim
"I will become very angry at them on that day, and I will abandon them and hide My face from them. They will be devoured, and plagued by many evils that will di
torah.org
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
For some reason, the Jews have a propensity to complicate something relatively simple by imposing their own ideas on any given situation. Jesus called it “straining at gnats whist gulping down camels”…and it means making simple things complicated by overthinking and nit picking the insignificant things in God’s law, but ignoring almost completely the reasons why any of God‘s important laws were given in the first place. They emphasized the letter of the law, but ignored the spirit of it…..Orthodox Jews still do.
Take redemption for example…..it was a simple uncomplicated law that forced a man in debt to sell himself into service to pay the exact amount back to a creditor. If the man had children and was the sole breadwinner in the family, he could offer his child to serve in his place to work off a small debt. Or for a larger debt, the creditor could sell the whole family into servitude to pay the debt.
Jesus used an example of this in a parable, where one slave owed his a master a large amount of money, but was in no position to pay it, so after his pleading with his master, out of compassion, he generously cancelled the debt for him.
On leaving his master, this slave saw a fellow slave who owed him a small amount of money, and when he pleaded for more time, the slave attacked the man, and handed him over to the jailers. When the master heard about this, he was furious and summoned the first slave to make an accounting for himself. Because the master’s generosity had not been visited upon a fellow slave, the master’s offer was withdrawn and the man thrown into prison until all the money he owed his master was paid back. Of course, in prison he could not work to earn any money, so the prison sentence was for the term of his natural life.
In offering the redemption of the human race through the offering of his son’s life, God was going to cancel the whole debt of sin for those who inherited this awful situation from Adam.
In order to pay the debt in full, a sinless life had to be offered for the sinless life that Adam took from his children. God offered the ransom himself to cancel the debt.
God’s law demanded equivalency, so our generous God, and his equally generous son offered to set us free.
God’s relationship with Israel became complicated only because they could never do as they were told. If they had simply obeyed their God as they had promised to do, no harm would have befallen them, they would have had his complete protection. When God withdrew his blessing, they knew why, but it never stopped the nation from following the same disobedient course….time and again.
At one point God was so angry that he was going to “exterminate” them! But Moses pleaded on their behalf and God’s anger subsided. He kept his covenant with his people even though they never upheld their end of the bargain. He produce their Messiah through the lineage that sprang from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, just as he promised, but when they put their Messiah to death, he cast them off, and chose a new nation to serve his interests. (Matt 23:37-39) That new nation Paul called “the Israel of God”, which was made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. (Gal 6:16)
The fleshly nation of Israel was given back to the world and we see even today that God is not blessing this people who still deny their savior….and who still indulge in allying themselves with nations whose worship they despise.….something God punished them for in the past.
They are a blood spilling political entity rather than a religious one in this “time of the end”. (Isa 1:15)
God has no further use for them. That is not to say that individual fleshly Jews cannot come to Christ and be saved, but as a nation they will not…..to this day, after almost 2000 years, they still stubbornly refuse to acknowledge Jesus as the Christ.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
Does God need man? No.
God is man.
www.crossway.org
God is man.
Colossians 1:16
John 1:1–3
10 Key Bible Verses on Creation
Jesus is not only the agent of creation but is also the goal of creation, for everything was created by him and for him, that is, for his honor and praise.
www.crossway.org
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
God,Creator, made flesh.
10 Key Bible Verses on Creation
Jesus is not only the agent of creation but is also the goal of creation, for everything was created by him and for him, that is, for his honor and praise.
www.crossway.org
The Word, Logos
John 1 (NET)
In the beginning[a] was the Word, and the Word was with God,[b] and the Word was fully God.[c] 2 The Word[d] was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created[e] by him, and apart from him not one thing was created[f] that has been created.[g] 4 In him was life,[h] and the life was the light of mankind.[i] 5 And the light shines on[j] in the darkness,[k] but[l] the darkness has not mastered it.[m]
6 A man came, sent from God, whose name was John.[n] 7 He came as a witness[o] to testify[p] about the light, so that everyone[q] might believe through him. 8 He himself was not the light, but he came to testify[r] about the light. 9 The true light, who gives light to everyone,[s] was coming into the world.[t] 10 He was in the world, and the world was created[u] by him, but[v] the world did not recognize[w] him. 11 He came to what was his own,[x] but[y] his own people[z] did not receive him.[aa] 12 But to all who have received him—those who believe in his name[ab]—he has given the right to become God’s children 13 —children not born[ac] by human parents[ad] or by human desire[ae] or a husband’s[af] decision,[ag] but by God.
14 Now[ah] the Word became flesh[ai] and took up residence[aj] among us. ...
Bible Gateway passage: John 1 - New English Translation
The Prologue to the Gospel - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the...
Notice anything about this painting?
God,Creator, made flesh.
10 Key Bible Verses on Creation
Jesus is not only the agent of creation but is also the goal of creation, for everything was created by him and for him, that is, for his honor and praise.
The Word, Logos
John 1 (NET)
In the beginning[a] was the Word, and the Word was with God,[b] and the Word was fully God.[c] 2 The Word[d] was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were created[e] by him, and apart from him not one thing was created[f] that has been created.[g] 4 In him was life,[h] and the life was the light of mankind.[i] 5 And the light shines on[j] in the darkness,[k] but[l] the darkness has not mastered it.[m]
6 A man came, sent from God, whose name was John.[n] 7 He came as a witness[o] to testify[p] about the light, so that everyone[q] might believe through him. 8 He himself was not the light, but he came to testify[r] about the light. 9 The true light, who gives light to everyone,[s] was coming into the world.[t] 10 He was in the world, and the world was created[u] by him, but[v] the world did not recognize[w] him. 11 He came to what was his own,[x] but[y] his own people[z] did not receive him.[aa] 12 But to all who have received him—those who believe in his name[ab]—he has given the right to become God’s children 13 —children not born[ac] by human parents[ad] or by human desire[ae] or a husband’s[af] decision,[ag] but by God.
14 Now[ah] the Word became flesh[ai] and took up residence[aj] among us. ...
Bible Gateway passage: John 1 - New English Translation
The Prologue to the Gospel - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the...www.biblegateway.com
Notice anything about this painting?
The painting: God is one person. Man is another person. The God is not the man. The man is not the God.
God is man? I don’t think so.
***
Jesus is theos and anthropos.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
The painting: God is seated in what is a medial plane cross section of the human brain.
OK.
I think I'll take John 1 at its word.
And Jesus too. Like when he said he and his Father are one.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
God is a person?
I disagree.
Editing to ask: Just noticed your profile lists your faith as, other faith.
As in, what?
Is God not a person in the painting that you asked me to look at?
You can do that. No problem.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
I asked if you noticed anything about the painting.
I know. You however cannot. Not when you insist what it states is not true.
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