Does God want us to use His name?

[Ronald David Bruno]

Christians never lose Biblical arguments sir, never. Only those who reject the teachings of the Bible will come out losers.

And yet the JW's reject fundamental teachings of the Bible.
Sorry, when you claim Jesus is a Michael, a created being and the Holy Spirit is not a person but a force - YOU LOSE MUCH. Arguments are minor loses compared to the many blessings that the JW is deprived of by their own belief system.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Your statements demonstrate the effectiveness of the Roman church at hiding the truth.

The Roman Catholic Church received many corrections when Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation came along. Many newly discovered manuscripts have given us help to better translate.

Jesus was worshipped by angels and people since birth! HE IS LORD, YHWH. HE is the great "I AM", and He is our Savior. He is God. Only God could take away the sins of the world. Only God can create all things as it clearly says in Col. 1:16, 17. We put our faith in Christ. If Christ wasn't God Almighty, (YHWH) why would we put faith in a lesser being, or even an archangel? If Christ is not God, why would the Bible claim that He is our Savior and there is no other? And why would He make all the claims He did? He said "I am the way, the truth and the life. In His list of claims (all the "I am's" in John for instance), lie descriptions of what only God is capable of doing and who he is. He gave only a brief introduction to Moses in Exodus 3 and later filled in the blanks when He became flesh and dwelt among us.
YHWH is in the OT and He is revealed in the NT as Jeaus. So the real argument would then be is Jesus YHWH? I think I gave a could explanation why.

 

[Cassandra]

I said God had to give them a choice. We all would have failed the test too. Sin came into the world by
Adam and salvation came by Jesus. The only true value if love js that is is given freely, by choice. It is wonderful that life is fulled with choices and for us they all work out
for good.

What do you call a child who doesn't know what is right from wrong, what is good or bad for them? Amoral, naive, unwise, basically without the knowledge of good and evil.
I wonder how one can mature without ever thinking they never did anything wrong? We learn from our mistakes. Anyways, evil existed before Adam and Eve did and they needed to know about it.

You don't think God told them about Satan and what he did before? I do.
The Heavenly host chose too. They all had free will.

 

[Happy Trails]

Your argument demonstrates the effectiveness of the JW belief system. What did Robert give you a call and ask to come over and give him a hand?
The Roman Catholic Church received many corrections when Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation came along. But I would still call Catholics my brothers and sisters. JW's would not call any Catholic or Protestant their brothers or sisters, who are in the Body of Christ, currently numbering 2.65 billion and counting. I have them in my family and they do not call me brother. And they believe all Christendom is led by Satan. If that were true, our God is weak to only account for a miniscule flock. But He is not weak. The Body of Christ is huge, 1/3 of the population.
The Roman Catholic Church did not distort who God is. Being a Protestant, I would certainly choose to attend a Catholic service over a JW service. I cannot sit through another one - so much misinterpreting done, they are not Spirit-filled at all - because they do not believe the Holy Spirit is a person who dwells in those He baptizes. It is kind of like attending a Synagogue. Jews claim to know God, but have not been Baptized into the name of Jesus, therefore they haven't received the Spirit either. But I love my family regardless and they know it.
God has taken good care to see that His word was passed down accurately - why would He go through all that He has done to see His Word corrupted? He is all powerful and His will and plan will get done.
We have many English Translations but all Christian scholars outside of the JW org. and churches throughout the world do not accept the New World Translation. "It is the only translation that has been wriitten to conform to a belief system". Hacks like Frederick Franz who had only two years of Greek and could not translate one verse of Hebrew in a court of law, translated the NWT in the 50's. Why? Because all other translations conflicted with their beliefs, so they went in and twisted and corrupted verses to conform.
Jesus was worshipped by angels and people since birth! HE IS LORD, YHWH. HE is the great "I AM", and He is our Savior. He is God. Only God could take away the sins of the world. Only God can create all things as it clearly says in Col. 1:16, 17. We put our faith in Christ. If Christ wasn't God Almighty, why would we out faith in a lesser being, an archangel? If Christ is not God, why would the Bible claim that He is our Savior and there is no other? God and why would He make all the claims He did? He said "I am the way, the truth and the life. In His list of claims (all the "I am's" in John for instance), lie descriptions of what only God is capable of doing and who he is. He gave only a brief introduction to Moses in Exodus 3 and later filled in the blanks when He became flesh and dwelt among us.
Jesus will someday intoduce you to Michael - then you will know.

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness. You'll have to actually address my comments instead of using that organization's beliefs to try and discredit me.

Find anything I said and give me a rational and reasonable argument against it based on Scripture. Nothing you have stated has anything to do with anything I said.

 

[DavidB]

Is that all you can think of? Factor in all evil that has ever been committed. He allowed it.
He causes all things to work together for good. We learn from evil what good is. We could not know ir appreciate what good is unless we went without it, experienced its opposite. Could we understand and value mercy, forgiveness, healing, joy, peace, love or faith and all the attributes of God unless we experienced evil.
Remember, the knowledge of good came with the knowledge of evil. It was thw Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they ate of. God put it there and also allowed Satan in the Garden with them, knowing what He would do. It was all part of His perfect plan. People often present it as something that shouldn't have happened, a mistake. You know yourself, kids don't appreciate things until they go without them. When we are down, defeated, impoverished,
or depressed, surrounded by evil, then God's grace comes along and lifts us out and gives us mercy, love, provisions, then we know and appreciate it.

I will not begin my response with an insult.

So, you believe it is the Christian congregation’s role to introduce evil?
God knew sin and death was going to occur and yet he proceeded anyway? That makes him responsible for all the suffering in human history. What a horrible god you believe in. And I don’t need to eat garbage to enjoy a good meal.

You think your family and the elders don’t discuss the Bible with you because they got frustrated from you winning all the arguments? I can assure you that is not why they stopped talking to you.

 

[DavidB]

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness. You'll have to actually address my comments instead of using that organization's beliefs to try and discredit me.

Find anything I said and give me a rational and reasonable argument against it based on Scripture. Nothing you have stated has anything to do with anything I said.

I enjoyed reading your comments. You have obviously done some serious research and study. I expect you have that found most people prefer the doctrines of men. It is easier to be part of the world than to travel the narrow road that few find.

 

[tigger 2]

I'm sorry I haven't been able to keep up as well as I would like in this and other threads. Has anyone pointed out that hallelujah is used 4 times referring to God in Revelation 19?

 

[Happy Trails]

I enjoyed reading your comments. You have obviously done some serious research and study. I expect you have that found most people prefer the doctrines of men. It is easier to be part of the world than to travel the narrow road that few find.

Amen.

I generally pose the question, "Does the Bible say that Jesus is the Easter Ham or the Passover Lamb?"

 

[Happy Trails]

I'm sorry I haven't been able to keep up as well as I would like in this and other threads. Has anyone pointed out that hallelujah is used 4 times referring to God in Revelation 19?

Well, you're just gonna have to get a little more serious about this place!

If you quit your job, you'll have more time to spend here.

How about Yeshua means "Yah saves?" Jesus' Name includes the Father's Name.

Appreciate the comments.

 

[tigger 2]

Well, you're just gonna have to get a little more serious about this place!

If you quit your job, you'll have more time to spend here.

How about Yeshua means "Yah saves?" Jesus' Name includes the Father's Name.

Appreciate the comments.

So do Joshua and Isaiah (and many others) names.

I quit my job (retired) 32 years ago.

 

[Happy Trails]

So do Joshua and Isaiah (and many others) names.

Bingo!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You don't think God told them about Satan and what he did before? I do.

No, they were ignorant of evil.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness. You'll have to actually address my comments instead of using that organization's beliefs to try and discredit me.

Find anything I said and give me a rational and reasonable argument against it based on Scripture. Nothing you have stated has anything to do with anything I said.

That's good. I assumed wrong and will retrack that. Yet, you're defending the name as if witnessing for Jehovah, a made up name.
Many Christians also use the name. I don't. I address our Father in Heaven as Father, Jesus as Jesus, Lord, Savior, Messiah, Son of God and the Holy Spirit as Holy Spirit or God.
Of over 5,000 New Testament manuscripts none contains any form of the Hebrew יהוה (Tetragrammaton).
What you present is theory.
I'm sure some rare manuscripts may have surfaced that contained YHWH, but the process of textual criticism weeds them out when compared to the thousands of others that do not contain it.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I will not begin my response with an insult.

So, you believe it is the Christian congregation’s role to introduce evil?
God knew sin and death was going to occur and yet he proceeded anyway? That makes him responsible for all the suffering in human history. What a horrible god you believe in. And I don’t need to eat garbage to enjoy a good meal.

You think your family and the elders don’t discuss the Bible with you because they got frustrated from you winning all the arguments? I can assure you that is not why they stopped talking to you.

I didn't insult you, I just asked if that list of evils was all you had.
Isaiah 45:7 sheds some light ... and darkness.
CEB
I form light and create darkness, make prosperity and create doom; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
ERV
I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause trouble. I, the Lord, do all these things.

KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

NASB
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

NKJV
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’

So evil, doom, calamity, disaster, trouble, in the form of judgments or chastisements come from God.

Teaching on the subject from two excellent scholars:
"God is certainly sovereign over evil. There's a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. It did not take Him by surprise. It is not an interruption of His eternal plan. He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10).
But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28)." John MacArthur
-------------------
"There's moral evil. There's what we would call metaphysical evil—finitude, for example. Whenever the Bible speaks of God bringing evil upon people, it is evil from their perspective. When the fires fell upon Sodom and Gomorrah, the people did not look upon that as a good thing. That was bad news. But it was ultimately good because it was an expression of God's judgment upon their wickedness. It was a punishment wrought by the hand of God upon evil. That doesn't mean that God did something wrong or something morally evil by visiting them with judgment.
This Isaiah text is also written in poetic form. It uses parallelism, a pattern of poetry common to Old Testament Judaism. There are even different types of parallelism.
An example occurs in the Lord's Prayer when Jesus says, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." Those two thoughts are parallel and they're basically synonymous; they are saying the same thing only with different words. We find that often in the Psalms.
In Isaiah 45 we have an example of two statements next to each other that are antithetical parallelisms. The first verse is "I create the light and the darkness." Light and darkness are opposites; they're contrasts, they are an antithesis one to another. That's why it's called antithetical parallelism.
The next statement has the same kind of antithesis, but how is the wording? "I make peace, I create evil." It doesn't ring true because peace and evil in our vocabulary are not antonyms, are they? Whereas light and dark are opposites, these are not. What the text is saying is that as God brings good things to bear in this world, he also brings about calamities in his judgment."
RC Sproul

Btw, I believe in the same God they do. He's not horrible, He is perfect.

 

[Happy Trails]

That's good. I assumed wrong and will retrack that. Yet, you're defending the name as if witnessing for Jehovah, a made up name.
Many Christians also use the name. I don't. I address our Father in Heaven as Father, Jesus as Jesus, Lord, Savior, Messiah, Son of God and the Holy Spirit as Holy Spirit or God.
Of over 5,000 New Testament manuscripts none contains any form of the Hebrew יהוה (Tetragrammaton).
What you present is theory.
I'm sure some rare manuscripts may have surfaced that contained YHWH, but the process of textual criticism weeds them out when compared to the thousands of others that do not contain it.

More than 250 extant Hebrew manuscripts of the New Testament ALL contain the Name. For you to say it's a made-up Name makes me think that you have chosen to limit yourself to English translations of Greek texts and have no interest in facts. The NT was written by Jews. They spoke and wrote Hebrew in their daily lives. The NT is a Hebrew document. ANY Greek version is a translation from the original.

Acts 21:37-40 The Roman guard accompanying Paul was surprised he could speak Greek. Apparently, he had never heard him do it until this moment.
Acts 22:1-3 When the people heard him speak Hebrew, they were willing to listen.
Acts 26:14 Jesus spoke to Saul in Hebrew.

The documents I posted are not theory. They are the NT in Hebrew. There are more than 2,000 extra-biblical Hebrew manuscripts that contain the Name YehoVAH.

The tetragrammaton, including all 3 vowels, appears on the reverse of Swedish coins from the 17th century. Here's a photo:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/427349452121075053/

And another:
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/3e/67/a9/3e67a9c87560de3713a1d8a1e8a94ba6.jpg

Before the US could mint coins, these were legal tender in the colonies.

Christians all over the world knew the Name.

The cover page for the New Testament in the 1611 KJV has the tetragrammaton with all three vowels. It is the uppermost thing on the page.


From right to left, yod with the vowel shva, (2 dots below) hey with a cholam, (single dot above) and vav with a qamats (the little T below.) Then, we have another hey with no vowel. YehoVAH.

If the Name is made-up, then the KJV is an illegitimate text.

Before 200 years ago, the Name was widely known. The conspiracy of silence has hidden the Name from YHVH's people, including many Jews.

Your claim is that because you've never heard of them, they don't exist. They do exist, and people who are much more learned than you and I spend their lives uncovering them. That destroys any argument about textual criticism. The texts are there and they are plenteous.

The Romans hated the Jews and did their best to destroy their influence. It interfered with their control of the people. That's why they convinced everyone that the NT is a Greek document. It is not. It was written by Jews. The Jewish believers in Yeshua knew and used the Name YehoVAH.

 

[DavidB]

I didn't insult you, I just asked if that list of evils was all you had.
Isaiah 45:7 sheds some light ... and darkness.
CEB
I form light and create darkness, make prosperity and create doom; I am the Lord, who does all these things.
ERV
I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause trouble. I, the Lord, do all these things.

KJV
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

NASB
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

NKJV
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’

So evil, doom, calamity, disaster, trouble, in the form of judgments or chastisements come from God.

Teaching on the subject from two excellent scholars:
"God is certainly sovereign over evil. There's a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. It did not take Him by surprise. It is not an interruption of His eternal plan. He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10).
But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28)." John Macarthur
-------------------
"There's moral evil. There's what we would call metaphysical evil—finitude, for example. Whenever the Bible speaks of God bringing evil upon people, it is evil from their perspective. When the fires fell upon Sodom and Gomorrah, the people did not look upon that as a good thing. That was bad news. But it was ultimately good because it was an expression of God's judgment upon their wickedness. It was a punishment wrought by the hand of God upon evil. That doesn't mean that God did something wrong or something morally evil by visiting them with judgment.
This Isaiah text is also written in poetic form. It uses parallelism, a pattern of poetry common to Old Testament Judaism. There are even different types of parallelism.
An example occurs in the Lord's Prayer when Jesus says, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." Those two thoughts are parallel and they're basically synonymous; they are saying the same thing only with different words. We find that often in the Psalms.
In Isaiah 45 we have an example of two statements next to each other that are antithetical parallelisms. The first verse is "I create the light and the darkness." Light and darkness are opposites; they're contrasts, they are an antithesis one to another. That's why it's called antithetical parallelism.
The next statement has the same kind of antithesis, but how is the wording? "I make peace, I create evil." It doesn't ring true because peace and evil in our vocabulary are not antonyms, are they? Whereas light and dark are opposites, these are not. What the text is saying is that as God brings good things to bear in this world, he also brings about calamities in his judgment."
RC Sproul

Btw, I believe in the same God they do. He's not horrible, He is perfect.

You didn’t ask if a list of evils was all I had. You asked if what I wrote was all I could think of as if I am too stupid to come up with anything else. That said, I am not concerned about your manners. I have been talking with people like you for over 50 years. Your manner is predictable. But I am no one’s judge. God has given the authority to judge to his Son. I will do my best to be respectful.

This is the God I worship.
Deut 32:3-5: “For I will declare the name of Jehovah. Tell about the greatness of our God! The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he. They are the ones who have acted corruptly. They are not his children, the defect is their own. They are a crooked and twisted generation!”

All evil in the world is because humans from Adam until today have used free moral agency and “acted corruptly.” The defect is ours.

James 1:13: “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone.”

Predestination presumes that God wasn’t capable of creating man as truly free, capable of making his own decision to obey him. But that is what he did. No one else has that wisdom or power. What a magnificent God!

 

[The Disciple John]

So God’s perfect plan was to have his church ally itself with Rome, adopt pagan beliefs and practices, commit some of the worst atrocities in history in the Inquisitions and Crusades, torture and burn at the stake men who were trying to translate and distribute the Bible to common people etc. Jesus said his disciples would be recognized by their fruitage. He also said that few would find the road to life.
That true Christianity would be over sown with weeds by Satan was made clear by Jesus and the apostles.

Maybe God wanted the people that didn't believe all the doctrines of the church of Rome, dead, and God was pleased with seeing them tormented to death. After all hell is a worse torment, since those there won't die, like those burned at the stake did. Their torment is eternal.
Maybe God didn't want the Bible to be translated into other languages as yet, since he maybe would use his church to do that, in due time.
Seems I am speculating about what God wanted, or would do though, but how would you address those?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Isaiah 48 and The Holy Trinity

 

[The Disciple John]

More than 250 extant Hebrew manuscripts of the New Testament ALL contain the Name. For you to say it's a made-up Name makes me think that you have chosen to limit yourself to English translations of Greek texts and have no interest in facts. The NT was written by Jews. They spoke and wrote Hebrew in their daily lives. The NT is a Hebrew document. ANY Greek version is a translation from the original.

Acts 21:37-40 The Roman guard accompanying Paul was surprised he could speak Greek. Apparently, he had never heard him do it until this moment.
Acts 22:1-3 When the people heard him speak Hebrew, they were willing to listen.
Acts 26:14 Jesus spoke to Saul in Hebrew.

The documents I posted are not theory. They are the NT in Hebrew. There are more than 2,000 extra-biblical Hebrew manuscripts that contain the Name YehoVAH.

The tetragrammaton, including all 3 vowels, appears on the reverse of Swedish coins from the 17th century. Here's a photo:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/427349452121075053/

And another:
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/3e/67/a9/3e67a9c87560de3713a1d8a1e8a94ba6.jpg

Before the US could mint coins, these were legal tender in the colonies.

Christians all over the world knew the Name.

The cover page for the New Testament in the 1611 KJV has the tetragrammaton with all three vowels. It is the uppermost thing on the page.
View attachment 21077

From right to left, yod with the vowel shva, (2 dots below) hey with a cholam, (single dot above) and vav with a qamats (the little T below.) Then, we have another hey with no vowel. YehoVAH.

If the Name is made-up, then the KJV is an illegitimate text.

Before 200 years ago, the Name was widely known. The conspiracy of silence has hidden the Name from YHVH's people, including many Jews.

Your claim is that because you've never heard of them, they don't exist. They do exist, and people who are much more learned than you and I spend their lives uncovering them. That destroys any argument about textual criticism. The texts are there and they are plenteous.

The Romans hated the Jews and did their best to destroy their influence. It interfered with their control of the people. That's why they convinced everyone that the NT is a Greek document. It is not. It was written by Jews. The Jewish believers in Yeshua knew and used the Name YehoVAH.

Informative.
I did not know this.
Could you share some more info on this with me.
I would be interested in more on the Romans involvement in silencing the Jews, as well as their propaganda.
If it's too much to post in the thread, please PM me with the links.
Thank you.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Rom 10:13
13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The Name of the Lord is JESUS.
Scripture notifies men it is BY, THROUGH, OF Jesus, SINFUL men, can get their prayers, desires, asking, petitions .... sent to God...via the Lord Jesus.
* ie JESUS, is sinful mans advocate, intercessory.

* Already followed Gods ORDER and WAY.

Do I continue to CALL out JESUS’ name as my intercessory? No.
I have direct communication to the Heavenly Father; Lord God Almighty...
What is His NAME ? Jesus.

Lord - Jesus
God - Father
Almighty - Christ


God Bless,
Taken

No Taken, you are mistaken. Romans 10:13 was quoted from Joel 2:32 which says whoever calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved. That is the problem with Bibles that remove God's name, it can be confusing. If you have a cross reference Bible check it and it will confirm what I have said. No doubt why verse 14, 15 was included. We are only too happy to help for sure.