Does the Bible identify "Babylon"?

[Davy]

Of course you do. And on whose authority do you stand on that changes God's explicit commandment to something else? You demand biblical evidence for definition of the MOB, where is your biblical authority for Sunday?

Ah... let's be honest now, you Seventh Day Adventists don't really keep THE REAL SABBATH either! How's that?

Because the REAL SABBATH time that God gave is per the HEBREW reckoning for a day, from sunset to sunset.

So you gonna' try and tell me SDA folks pay close attention to starting their sabbath right at sundown Friday, and keeping it all the way to the next sunset at Saturday evening?

 

[ewq1938]

On who's authority?

Christ. Have you not read that the Sabbath was a shadow of what was to come?

On who's authority has SDA changed the MOB to Sunday worship? You can't say Christ because he did not say that through the HS to John anywhere in Revelation.

 

[Brakelite]

Ah... let's be honest now, you Seventh Day Adventists don't really keep THE REAL SABBATH either! How's that?

Because the REAL SABBATH time that God gave is per the HEBREW reckoning for a day, from sunset to sunset.

So you gonna' try and tell me SDA folks pay close attention to starting their sabbath right at sundown Friday, and keeping it all the way to the next sunset at Saturday evening?

Yes. Every single week. Adventists have never observed the Sabbath as the world observes Sunday.

 

[Brakelite]

Christ. Have you not read that the Sabbath was a shadow of what was to come?

I have read in Colossians that there are Sabbaths which are shadows of things to come... No-one I know has ever established the weekly Sabbath as a shadow.
What Sabbaths were shadows, and why? They were the established feast days, Passover, feast of first fruits, feast of trumpets etc, which were intimately connected to the yearly round of sanctuary service, and all those feasts were annual events. Why? Because each one pointed to a coming Savior, as also did the sanctuary itself, it's furniture, the sacrifices, and the priesthood, all shadows of a coming Savior, all intimately a part of the laws of Moses established by God through Moses as a means by which to deal with the sin problem. All connections to that sanctuary service were indeed temporary because Jesus fulfilled each one, all because of sin. The forerunner of this of course being the very first sacrifice after the fall in Eden when Jesus clothed Adam and Eve with the skins from that first sacrifice, and from thence followed a pattern, a pattern of obedience and submission to the will of God, a pattern followed by Abel costing him his life, and rejected by Cain who considered his own works as worthy.
The weekly Sabbath however was not redemptive. It was not a part of the cure for the sin problem. It was not a shadow, being established by Jesus Himself before sin everbecame an issue for man. The weekly Sabbath was an integral component of creation week, and far from a being a shadow of something to come, was a memorial and reminder of that which had been accomplished on behalf of man... Creation. "... For in six days God created..."

On who's authority has SDA changed the MOB to Sunday worship?

Changed from what? And it isn't SDAs who is establishing the MOB, Sunday sacredness, ...

(I object to your use of the term 'Sunday worship'... There is nothing wrong with worshipping on Sundays or any day... It's about replacing the true Sabbath with a spurious counterfeit day and calling that day holy and sacred)

... as a mark of authority for the Antichrist. It is the Papacy, who established Sunday sacredness calling it a holy day, and protestantism and the vast majority of Christendom agrees with this change...a change which I will add is only in the mind of those who accept it, as no-one, not you, me, or even any of the apostles, and certainly not an apostate church system that has thought to replace not only the true 7th day Sabbath, but everything else in the plan of salvation including Jesus Himself with counterfeit mediators, prayers, even the gospel itself. That's why she is antichrist.

 

[ewq1938]

I have read in Colossians that there are Sabbaths which are shadows of things to come... No-one I know has ever established the weekly Sabbath as a shadow.

It's right there in the verse. Many things were a shadow of what was to come including the Sabbath.

The weekly Sabbath however was not redemptive.

It was still a shadow of something better to come.

Changed from what? And it isn't SDAs who is establishing the MOB, Sunday sacredness, ...

Of course it is. It comes solely from the SDA. No one else claims the MOB is such a thing.

(I object to your use of the term 'Sunday worship'...

I got it from SDA's. It's not mine. Call it whatever you wish, SDA believe the MOB will be related to Sunday. A Sunday Sabbath, or Sunday worshiping, sacredness...same thing.

There is nothing wrong with worshipping on Sundays or any day... It's about replacing the true Sabbath with a spurious counterfeit day and calling that day holy and sacred)

... as a mark of authority for the Antichrist.

Again, this isn't something from the bible. It's from SDA teachings only.

 

[Brakelite]

It's right there in the verse. Many things were a shadow of what was to come including the Sabbath.

The verse explicitly says, Sabbaths which are shadows, in other words, Paul is directing out attention to a specific type of Sabbath... Shadows... And there is absolutely nothing in the 4th commandment that suggests the weekly Sabbath as being on of them. For the reasons I expounded upon above, it was established before sin. Go back and read Genesis and tell me how the Sabbath there described is a shadow, and explain please what it is a shadow of. From scripture.

Again, this isn't something from the bible. It's from SDA teachings only.

No, it took place in history. And prophecy declared such would take place when Daniel said the little horn would think to change times and laws. Men change laws every day, and no-one, not even God, cares. But to change God's explicit commandment, and boast of your authority to do so, is blasphemy. And that change is a fact of history and it stands without any "thus sayeth the Lord" to give that change any authority.
Babylon is fallen. Twice. Fallen from what? A former faithful relationship, Paul soaking of that fallen system as being apostate, which literally means divorce. Babylon is clearly a fallen church. A spiritual entity which today is seeking to establish itself as a global counterfeit for the true people of God.

 

[ewq1938]

The verse explicitly says, Sabbaths which are shadows, in other words, Paul is directing out attention to a specific type of Sabbath... Shadows... And there is absolutely nothing in the 4th commandment that suggests the weekly Sabbath as being on of them.

There are weekly Sabbaths every month. When Sabbath is used in the verse, it includes the weekly Sabbath. It was a shadow of something to come...most things from the OT were exactly that. What Christ gave us was a better Sabbath than existed in the OT. Cling to the shadow if you wish.

And prophecy declared such would take place when Daniel said the little horn would think to change times and laws.

There is nothing in Daniel or Revelation or any part of the bible about the MOB being anything Sunday related.

 

[Davy]

Yes. Every single week. Adventists have never observed the Sabbath as the world observes Sunday.

The REAL sabbath per God's Word ain't just about observing it every week. It HAS TO BE on a SPECIFIC day of the week, starting and ending at a SPECIFIC HOUR of the day.

 

[quietthinker]

And none of that comes from the bible. It's pure SDA fiction. I figured out decades ago that all denominations have their own particular false doctrines. What you believe in is no more real than the Pretribbers or the Universalists etc etc.

the ignorance is astounding!

 

[Davy]

There are weekly Sabbaths every month. When Sabbath is used in the verse, it includes the weekly Sabbath. It was a shadow of something to come...most things from the OT were exactly that. What Christ gave us was a better Sabbath than existed in the OT. Cling to the shadow if you wish.



There is nothing in Daniel or Revelation or any part of the bible about the MOB being anything Sunday related.

It's also a MYTH that the Catholics came up with the idea of coming together to worship on Sunday as a replacement for keeping sabbath.

The early disciples met on the 'first day of the week' to break bread and hold communion with Christ, as written in God's Word by Apostle Paul in His Epistles. Jesus rose from the dead on the 'first day of the week', so that no doubt aided in their coming together to worship on Sunday, and to do alms, and to have a meal together, etc. And one needs to remember, these early Churches that Paul was overseer to, included both Jews and Gentiles, and Gentiles were never held to Jewish traditional sabbath keeping by ANY early Church.

And just so one knows what the traditional Jewish sabbath is -- it is from Friday at sunset to the following Saturday sunset. That is the traditional old covenant sabbath period per Hebrew calendar reckoning, the 7th day starting at sunset Friday and continuing to the next sunset Saturday.

 

[Brakelite]

The REAL sabbath per God's Word ain't just about observing it every week. It HAS TO BE on a SPECIFIC day of the week, starting and ending at a SPECIFIC HOUR of the day.

That's what I said.

 

[Brakelite]

And just so one knows what the traditional Jewish sabbath is -- it is from Friday at sunset to the following Saturday sunset. That is the traditional old covenant sabbath period per Hebrew calendar reckoning, the 7th day starting at sunset Friday and continuing to the next sunset Saturday.

Which is precisely what Seventh Day Adventists and others, eg Seventh Day Baptists, have been doing for 150 years or more, and what all Sabbath keepers did throughout the Christian era.

 

[Brakelite]

There is nothing in Daniel or Revelation or any part of the bible about the MOB being anything Sunday related.

What times and laws do you think the little horn thought to change that was so significant as to be recorded in God's word as a particular characteristic of the Antichrist?

 

[Truth7t7]

I have read in Colossians that there are Sabbaths which are shadows of things to come... No-one I know has ever established the weekly Sabbath as a shadow.
What Sabbaths were shadows, and why?

One thing I strongly agree with the SDA is Sabbath observance, all 10 commandments are alive and applicable today "All"

Those in Colossae were observing the new moons and sabbath days, and were judged for doing so

The Shadow Of Things To Come?

The New Moons And Sabbath Days Are (Eternal) and will be observed in the New Heaven And Earth as seen below, the shadow of things to come

Colossians 2:16:17KJV
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Isaiah 66:22-23KJV
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

What times and laws do you think the little horn thought to change that was so significant as to be recorded in God's word as a particular characteristic of the Antichrist?

Why guess and risk an eisegesis, as is the case we have been discussing? Whatever it is, it says "think" to change them not that any are actually changed and the timeframe of it all is the GT when the saints are worn out. I don't see anything that relates this to Sunday being the Sabbath for Catholics and others as that was changed long ago and does not match something that is done (or only thought of) in the future.

 

[Truth7t7]

It's also a MYTH that the Catholics came up with the idea of coming together to worship on Sunday as a replacement for keeping sabbath.

(Roman Emperor Constatine) made the pagan sun worshippers Sunday observance law

Wikipedia: Sol Invictus
Constantine decreed (March 7, 321) dies solis – the day of the Sun, "Sunday" – as the Roman day of rest

On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for grain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.

 

[Truth7t7]

It's also a MYTH that the Catholics came up with the idea of coming together to worship on Sunday as a replacement for keeping sabbath.

The early disciples met on the 'first day of the week' to break bread and hold communion with Christ, as written in God's Word by Apostle Paul in His Epistles. Jesus rose from the dead on the 'first day of the week', so that no doubt aided in their coming together to worship on Sunday, and to do alms, and to have a meal together, etc. And one needs to remember, these early Churches that Paul was overseer to, included both Jews and Gentiles, and Gentiles were never held to Jewish traditional sabbath keeping by ANY early Church.

And just so one knows what the traditional Jewish sabbath is -- it is from Friday at sunset to the following Saturday sunset. That is the traditional old covenant sabbath period per Hebrew calendar reckoning, the 7th day starting at sunset Friday and continuing to the next sunset Saturday.

The Early Gentile Church Was Established On And Observed The Sabbath

Acts 13:42-49KJV
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

 

[ewq1938]

The Early Gentile Church Was Established On And Observed The Sabbath

Acts 13:42-49KJV
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

Going where people are to share the gospel does not show the early church keeping the Sabbath. Earlier in Acts Paul is shown preaching to Christians on a Sunday.

 

[Truth7t7]

Going where people are to share the gospel does not show the early church keeping the Sabbath. Earlier in Acts Paul is shown preaching to Christians on a Sunday.

I wait for you to post this scripture in support of your claim

 

[ewq1938]

I wait for you to post this scripture in support of your claim

That Paul taught on a Sunday?

You that made a claim and posted scripture that did not support the claim.