Dogmatic Certainties

[stunnedbygrace]

As I understand it . . .

God required they believe Him, and God requires we believe Him, but the message He gave them was different than the message He gives to us.

Hebebrews 4 says they had the gospel preached to them just as we do but the word did them no good because they did not unite it with faith.

 

[Helen]

When you say our covenant is built on better promises, is the promise that we will not be destroyed for lack of trust as they were?

Butting in here..lol

They you remember had to bring a lamb every year to take care of the sins of a year ( the day of atonement )

We had the blessing The Lamb offered ONCE and not for just a year.

Is this not a better covenant .

The promise is Jesus Christ...the Lamb , promised from before the creation of the world.

 

[Helen]

Hebrews 10
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Much love!

Gotta run!

Good verses...run carefully lol

 

[amadeus]

I am trying to connect with brothers. But there is something un-brotherly in the way...a lack of honesty and transparency. There is a great deal of false doctrine, brainwashing and dogmatic triumphalism that has spoiled the church. But many cling to that as if it was of God rather than from men...or worse....the enemy. So the churches have been fully infiltrated...if not by one false spirit...then another one that does an equal damage...but in another way. And there is so little discernment that each can justify itself against the other. The far right fundamentalist fascist churches attack the far left neo-marxist post modernist churches...and vice versa. Politics is from the devil...divide and conquer. But few know about that. Most "believers" are fooled by politics and are no wiser than anyone else in the world.

So maybe you yourself can't perceive that. We are all in play here. Nevertheless there is a depth of understanding that exceeds the common and shallow religious rhetoric that passes for theology in today's fallen churches. it blows the doors off it, really!

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

But... even with Jesus available to lean on and the Holy Spirit to lead him, man continues to try to direct his own steps and of course to fail.

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Prov 16:25

People own Bibles and read them in darkness, and in many in their blindness believe that they see. How can this be? What is Jesus saying here about the Pharisees?

"And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:40-41

Can people read the Bible and remain in darkness? Yes, indeed!

"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." Psalm 119:105

Where is the Light?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes. I'd go back to the outcome of faith for each.

The outcome of faith for each...? It says they did not unite the good news preached to them with faith. So their outcome was not based on trust.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Butting in here..lol

They you remember had to bring a lamb every year to take care of the sins of a year ( the day of atonement )

We had the blessing The Lamb offered ONCE and not for just a year.

Is this not a better covenant .

The promise is Jesus Christ...the Lamb , promised from before the creation of the world.

Yeah, I was making a point with a pointed question. I did not believe what I asked, actually. What I was trying to get across was that 1. God is not a respecter of persons and 2. God never changes.

So, I was trying to get at why it appears to me that marks thinks a lack of faith in a person thousands of years ago gets them destruction but a lack of faith in a person now begets a different outcome.

 

[aspen]

What proof is needed that the Holy Spirit moves in the hearts of men?

you failed to get my point - you have to prove it because your religion is based on didactic reasoning

 

[Helen]

Yeah, I was making a point with a pointed question. I did not believe what I asked, actually. What I was trying to get across was that 1. God is not a respecter of persons and 2. God never changes.

So, I was trying to get at why it appears to me that marks thinks a lack of faith in a person thousands of years ago gets them destruction but a lack of faith in a person now begets a different outcome.

Oh sorry...shows me that butting into a conversation gets a person nowhere Hahah! Whoops .

I don't believe in different outcomes. But then, you know that.
The day of judgement has not yet arrived , so we actually have no idea who or what God decides about.

( my own personal view is that all judgement was poured out upon Jesus ..but I pretty much stand alone on that one. Haha! )

Bless you...H

 

[Nancy]

Yeah, I was making a point with a pointed question. I did not believe what I asked, actually. What I was trying to get across was that 1. God is not a respecter of persons and 2. God never changes.

So, I was trying to get at why it appears to me that marks thinks a lack of faith in a person thousands of years ago gets them destruction but a lack of faith in a person now begets a different outcome.

I don't think it does beget a different outcome. There are a few Psalms showing the OT folks looking forward, in faith for their Messiah...not seeing yet believing? Don't remember which Psalms speak about this, would have to look them up...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don't think it does beget a different outcome. There are a few Psalms showing the OT folks looking forward, in faith for their Messiah...not seeing yet believing? Don't remember which Psalms speak about this, would have to look them up...

i don't think a lack of faith begets a different outcome for us than it did for them either. But it appears to me as if marks thinks so somehow.

And it appears to me that he also thinks because we are given an earnest deposit of the Holy Spirit, we cannot fail in faith whereas Israel in the desert could, and did, fail.

So it looks to me (as I think marks sees it) like God expected faith from them and the same trust from us but did not give them what appears to be a failsafe advantage, which is all based on WHEN they were born and lived versus when marks was born and lives.

So Israel trusted God (had faith), because obviously they would have refused to step out under the wall of water if they didnt. But then right after, they refused to remain in trust, over and over again, for 40 years. But, despite the warnings to see that our own hearts don t become unbelieving as theirs did, marks thinks it is impossible.

And yet, a cursory glance at oneself shows that He also saved us and we
then proceed to worry over provision just exactly as Israel did. If the economy tanks and our retirement is wiped out, if we have an unexpected big expense or if we lose our job, we worry. How is that any different?

 

[Nancy]

i don't think a lack of faith begets a different outcome for us than it did for them either. But it appears to me as if marks thinks so somehow.

And it appears to me that he also thinks because we are given an earnest deposit of the Holy Spirit, we cannot fail in faith whereas Israel in the desert could, and did, fail.

So it looks to me (as I think marks sees it) like God expected faith from them and the same trust from us but did not give them what appears to be a failsafe advantage, which is all based on WHEN they were born and lived versus when marks was born and lives.

So Israel trusted God (had faith), because obviously they would have refused to step out under the wall of water if they didnt. But then right after, they refused to remain in trust, over and over again, for 40 years. But, despite the warnings to see that our own hearts don t become unbelieving as theirs did, marks thinks it is impossible.

And yet, a cursory glance at oneself shows that He also saved us and we
then proceed to worry over provision just exactly as Israel did. If the economy tanks and our retirement is wiped out, if we have an unexpected big expense or if we lose our job, we worry. How is that any different?

I don't think there is any difference. We cannot please God without faith. We are no different than they were, we too have short memories. It's like He saves us over and over again...from our own lack of faith yet, we seem to forget the times He dug us out.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I don't think there is any difference. We cannot please God without faith. We are no different than they were, we too have short memories. It's like He saves us over and over again...from our own lack of faith yet, we seem to forget the times He dug us out.

going to sleep but yours and @stunnedbygrace post brought up a question I have about lack of faith or “without faith it is impossible to please God.” what happens if a persons cognitive decline makes it so they no longer walk in faith. Where faith is no longer on their radar or building it or maintaining it but it has all deteriorated along with everything else...maybe even forgetting who family is or the Lord...what then?

 

[ScottA]

you failed to get my point - you have to prove it because your religion is based on didactic reasoning

You made your point, and now wallow in it.

 

[mjrhealth]

Protestantism is based on dialectic reasoning

Mens religion is based on self and ignorance, cant think of anything worse.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

going to sleep but yours and @stunnedbygrace post brought up a question I have about lack of faith or “without faith it is impossible to please God.” what happens if a persons cognitive decline makes it so they no longer walk in faith. Where faith is no longer on their radar or building it or maintaining it but it has all deteriorated along with everything else...maybe even forgetting who family is or the Lord...what then?

Ah, things like Alzheimer's and dementia, if I'm not mistaken, have to do with misfolding proteins in the brain. A man doesn't do that to his own brain. If he is then incapable, mentally, of remembering and functioning as he did before, I can't see God then condemning him for it. He didn't lose his faith, or fail in faith, his brain just began to give out. And, in fact, when men first receive a diagnosis like that, they pull closer to God than they had been a lot of the time.

I went through this with my dad. He got Parkinson's. He lingered in a greatly reduced state. I wondered why God didn't just take him, and also began to wonder if He might let someone who is His linger that way for years for the benefit of others.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Ah, things like Alzheimer's and dementia, if I'm not mistaken, have to do with misfolding proteins in the brain. A man doesn't do that to his own brain. If he is then incapable, mentally, of remembering and functioning as he did before, I can't see God then condemning him for it. He didn't lose his faith, or fail in faith, his brain just began to give out. And, in fact, when men first receive a diagnosis like that, they pull closer to God than they had been a lot of the time.

I went through this with my dad. He got Parkinson's. He lingered in a greatly reduced state. I wondered why God didn't just take him, and also began to wonder if He might let someone who is His linger that way for years for the benefit of others.

I’m so sorry to read about your father. I’ve often wondered too why someone lingers and for what benefit. This world can be brutal. There is a little toddler whenever I go to pick up my granddaughter from daycare and I’m reminded this place has many sorrows and unexplained whys...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But back to faith/trust, and there being nothing more precious than the testing of our faith.

That seed of faith is planted in each of us. We are told beforehand that the cares and worries of this world can choke it out.

But I see that often we don't take those cares and worries we have (which are a lack of faith) seriously. We have been taught that trust/faith is believing He died for you and will raise you again. That if you believe this, you are in no danger. But we are flirting with great danger when we don't take our worries over temporal provision seriously and go through the struggle, with His help, of this testing of our trust.

It is a choking hazard. And a hard testing. And the world, our own flesh, and the devil - these 3 enemies - want us to choke out. And yet, we have been taught to have an attitude of a complete lack of fear or concern, even when we do EXACTLY as Israel did in the desert concerning trusting for provision versus worrying over provision.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We are an exact overlay of Israel in the desert. Trust Him to save us, then proceed to worry over everything else.

And do you know, when you come out on the other side of that severe testing of your trust, then He begins on your will. He uses the increased trust as a stepping stone to your will.

 

[charity]

'That their hearts might be comforted,
being knit together in love,
and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding,
to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God,
and of the Father, and of Christ;
In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
(Colossians 2:2-4)

Praise God! - For certainties

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If your certainty leads you to a place of compromising your trust and thinking it doesn't matter, then your certainty is trying to bring about your death by choking.

We are saved by the kindness of God, through trust (by grace, through faith). If you don't take any lack of trust in yourself seriously, as the potential hazard it is, then I think you don't understand the "through faith" part of your saving.