Dream And Vision Interpretation

[amadeus]

@amadeus

John with the things going on back there at the group I am sure much of it has to do with 'where you are with that'.

But, your eyes did not get put out...you still have your vision.
If Hidden In Him had the details of that situation it may mean something him.
I cant believe that God would not speak to you on that issue.

Not that God still can't give him info without being 'in the picture'.

I am certain there is something in it with regard to my present local church situation. So does my wife. When I get the time to write a PM to @Hidden In Him I will direct it you as well so you can see what is happening now. Things are changing but I still don't see where it is that I am going after this.

 

[Stranger]

Stranger, you are making the argument here that an interpreter of dreams must also have a very powerful gift of word of knowledge or he is not a true interpreter of dreams. This is an unnecessary requirement you are placing upon interpreters, which would arbitrarily disqualify them from doing so. When Joseph interpreted for Pharaoh, Pharaoh TOLD Joseph the dream first. Joseph did not have to miraculously discern the dream without being told. Same goes for the servants who commended Joseph to Pharaoh to begin with:

"9 Then the chief cupbearer said to Pharaoh, “I remember my offenses today. 10 When Pharaoh was angry with his servants and put me and the chief baker in custody in the house of the captain of the guard, 11 we dreamed on the same night, he and I, each having a dream with its own interpretation. 12 A young Hebrew was there with us, a servant of the captain of the guard. When we told him, he interpreted our dreams to us, giving an interpretation to each man according to his dream. 13 And as he interpreted to us, so it came about. I was restored to my office, and the baker was hanged.”

14 Then Pharaoh sent and called Joseph, and they quickly brought him out of the pit. And when he had shaved himself and changed his clothes, he came in before Pharaoh. 15 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I have had a dream, and there is no one who can interpret it. I have heard it said of you that when you hear a dream you can interpret it.” 16 Joseph answered Pharaoh, “It is not in me; God will give Pharaoh a favorable answer.”[a] 17 Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Behold, in my dream I was standing on the banks of the Nile. 18 Seven cows, plump and attractive, came up out of the Nile and fed in the reed grass. 19 Seven other cows came up after them, poor and very ugly and thin, such as I had never seen in all the land of Egypt. 20 And the thin, ugly cows ate up the first seven plump cows, 21 but when they had eaten them no one would have known that they had eaten them, for they were still as ugly as at the beginning. Then I awoke. 22 I also saw in my dream seven ears growing on one stalk, full and good. 23 Seven ears, withered, thin, and blighted by the east wind, sprouted after them, 24 and the thin ears swallowed up the seven good ears. And I told it to the magicians, but there was no one who could explain it to me.” (Genesis 41:9-25)

By your criterion, Joseph would not have been a true interpreter of dreams. Or were you saying Joseph was inferior and somewhat deficient? This argument that suddenly all New Testament believers can interpret simply because they have received the outpouring of the Spirit is a fabrication based purely on theory. There's no support for it from scripture. It rests solely on a supposition. Every member on this thread who posted a dream was a Spirit-filled Christian, and while many had strong feelings about what their dreams meant, several had wondered without certainty for years, even decades, and others seemed to have little clue. What exactly are you telling them here simply because they posted dreams that they were either uncertain about or in reality really had no clue what they meant?

Pharoah had the testimony from the chief butler of the true fulfillment of Josephs interpretation, which involved several criteia needed to be fulfilled, including the death of one. (Gen. 41:9-13) Nebuchadnezzar had enough sense to know anyone can give an interpretation. To every dream you interpret I could come up with a different interpretation. And, how do you know their dreams are from God? Does God tell you? Are you trusting that they know the dream is from God?

Yes, all believers have the Spirit of God. And visions and dreams and prophecies do not just come to a select few. They come to all. God gives them because of something in their lives they are going through. And yes, when He gives it they know it, and will know the reason or meaning of it. No interpreter is needed. You say this is 'supposition'. Well, we are already dealing with supposition when you claim to have a gift of interpretation of dreams.

So, did God use Joseph to interpret dreams? Yes He did, all of which came true and were detailed enough so that it would be seen whether or not he was true in his dream or his interpretation of it.

So, the requirement, that you tell me my dream first and then give the interpretation, is not unnecessary. It alone is the only reason one should believe that God is giving you a gift of interpretation of dreams.

What I am telling you and every member here is that there is no gift of interpretation of dreams. If it had been a gift God would have told us about it. And He didn't.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

If your trying to argue that the gifts of the spirit listed in 1 cor 12 are a comprehensive list, I would point you to Romans 12.

Are we then to assume those two chapters together form a comprehensive list?

(1 Cor. 12-14), (Rom. 12), and (Eph. 4) form the list from which we understand what the gifts are.

Stranger

 

[Hidden In Him]

- "I was on CF checking my conversations in my dream and I saw a message from you that said "I love you!!!" = The conversation was sent by me, but it is not me who is talking. That's the Lord Jesus Himself. It's a dream thread, with the point that when I do interpretations it is Him speaking through me to people.

Thanks, Lily. This was the part I wanted posted on this thread right here. I had not asked the Lord to confirm that the ministry was not mine but His, and wasn't even thinking about it. It is just happening for some reason I am not aware of yet. But the @amadeus dream together with this one is the second confirmation I have received from an outside source in less than two weeks that it is not actually me communicating through the gift but the Lord.

- "My husband was posting on it and a lot of people were sharing their dreams on there."

In some respects, this thread resembles the conversation being described, so thanks again for posting it here. I want both dreams in close proximity.

 

[Nancy]

I can't totally agree...we cannot put The Holy Spirit in a neat little box.

1 Cor 12
5 " And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; "


In my book it has always come under the heading of word of wisdom and word of knowledge. The Holy Spirit either gives the wisdom or the knowledge or He doesn't. That is why sometimes it is "instant" and sometimes they need to wait on the Lord as did Joseph and Daniel and once they got it , they totally knew what God was saying.
Which ever way we cut it, it is an operation of the Holy Spirit.
If you don't wish to call it one of the 'gifts' ...it is no biggy.
What do names matter.

Some people call themselves Pastor ..yet they do not have a shepherd's heart at all! I remember one time in a meeting someone shook hands with me and said " Nice to meet you..I am Prophet Peter.."
If I wore false teeth I am sure I would have swallowed them!!

A person cannot lead, unless the person has people behind them following.
I am convinced when Paul said "...let him speak and let the others judge."
It is the people who confirm the ministry in another...if they are going to have a place to minister to!

just my thoughts...

Word sister!!!
1 Cor 12
5 " And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; " <---and what an awesome Scripture!! We should and certainly cannot limit The Holy Spirit in any way shape or form...the fruits that follow can be combined with faithful prayer and a teachable spirit and discernment and reading His Word to KNOW it is from the God we serve. Amen?

 

[Hidden In Him]

To every dream you interpret I could come up with a different interpretation.

Yes, but the questions are this:
1. Would it bear any witness with the Holy Spirit in the other believer?
2. Would the interpretation be consistent with all the details mentioned internally?

And, how do you know their dreams are from God? Does God tell you?

I get a sense. This part is something I am still developing, so when I have reservations about a dream I will start with the words, "If this dream is from the Lord..." to qualify that it might not be. When I'm very near certain or certain, these words are never included.

Are you trusting that they know the dream is from God?

Stranger, many have a sense that the dream they had was important in some way, often in a way where they can't get it off their minds. But do they know who it is from? Most often, no. They have no clue what to make of it, but only that it won't go away and they want to see if anyone has an interpretation that makes any sense to them.

Now, once they are alerted to the fact that they are in fact receiving dreams from God it becomes a different story altogether. The more the interpretations get confirmed out and/or make sense of important issues going on in their lives, suddenly they start taking them more and more seriously, and trusting that they did indeed come from God. It is a transition process to having your eyes opened to see that God does indeed and IS indeed communicating to you in your dreams, which is precisely what this Amadeus dream has been about.

And visions and dreams and prophecies do not just come to a select few. They come to all.

Are all open to receive them? Yes. Do all? Ummm... that's still debatable. I think there is a level of receptiveness that needs to be there.

No interpreter is needed. You say this is 'supposition'. Well, we are already dealing with supposition when you claim to have a gift of interpretation of dreams.

Well, my suppositions get rather consistently confirmed by what we see happening in people's lives. Many are too personal to be posting them openly here, but I could show you all kinds of evidence for this. If there were not an abundance of evidence confirming things I would likely stop doing this. Though you think this is pride, my only interest is in serving God and others in it.

So, the requirement, that you tell me my dream first and then give the interpretation, is not unnecessary. It alone is the only reason one should believe that God is giving you a gift of interpretation of dreams.

You make a jump not specified anywhere in scripture. But let me tell you why I am opposed to it. It is primarily to come to the defense of anyone who might read this thread who is called to interpret dreams. Rest assured I am praying and fasting for other gifts, including the ability to do exactly as you are requesting here, so as to alleviate all doubts (or more/ most of them). But this case you make would effectively denounce anyone who might be where I am now; i.e. that they are not truly being used of God unless they are walking in both interpretation AND especially powerful word of knowledge. This is a fallacy. Joseph did not exhibit both, yet was not to be disqualified as a true interpreter because of this. Your argument would disqualify many who are like him.

 

[Hidden In Him]

(1 Cor. 12-14), (Rom. 12), and (Eph. 4) form the list from which we understand what the gifts are.

Stranger

And none are complete, not even all of them taken together. Stranger, you speak as one in authority on this subject yet I don't recall you mentioning having any experience in the area. Tell me what you know about the spiritual gifts by experience and not by theory. And since we are discussing things openly, don't fall back on that it is a personal issue. What experience do you have in operating in supernatural gifts?

Btw, I will deal with the specific New Testament passages in question in a while. 1 Corinthians 12-14 presents serious problems for your argument.

 

[Helen]

This argument that suddenly all New Testament believers can interpret simply because they have received the outpouring of the Spirit is a fabrication based purely on theory. There's no support for it from scripture. It rests solely on a supposition. Every member on this thread who posted a dream was a Spirit-filled Christian, and while many had strong feelings about what their dreams meant, several had wondered without certainty for years, even decades, and others seemed to have little clue. What exactly are you telling them here simply because they posted dreams that they were either uncertain about or in reality really had no clue what they meant?

That spins me back a few decades..
We were in a Christian Movement ..which was huge and world wide...in many countries. ( the reason we came from England to Canada)

Well the lead Apostle 'had this revelation' , that because we all had the Holy Spirit flowing through us , therefore we didn't any longer need the gifts as mentioned and listed by Paul. ( my husband and I never bought into this...and neither quite a few things he preached..)
Anyway...different Pastors, leader , elders who joined the Movement obviously "came into it" with the gifts that they functioned in.
One friend of our used to move in the gift of Knowledge...when he walked into a meeting the Lord would show him many things 'for the people'...but he was told by the lead apostle to "lay down his gift" because now it is all the ministry "of the body" no one must move in any special gifting because it could make the proud. Another person we knew well, who had a wonderful healing ministry..she was told to "lay it down " and not function in it...because the body members must learn how to tap into the Holy Spirit for themselves to get their healing. ( which obviously each one of us can, and do...)

Dave and I found this so frustrating and told the leader so ...it was totally robbing the Body of Christ. The gifts were given for the Body.
So, like I say...I have heard this line before...

We stayed in that movement for many, many years...for the people, not because we believe what was taught from the top. I had many 'head to heads' with the lead apostles...that was one good thing about the Movement, they were always approachable. ( Dave is the mellow one, I was/am the mouthy one!! My mother said I was born that way! )
Prov 18:16 " A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men." Even in the Movement we were in..we knew which people flowed in the gifts....so they still functioned in them, though outside of the meetings...

The only gift I have not seem in operation is the Gift of Faith.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Dave and I found this so frustrating and told the leader so ...it was totally robbing the Body of Christ. The gifts were given for the Body.

ABSOLUTELY! This is precisely what one of the primary functions the gifts are designed to accomplish. It makes us interdependent upon one another, where no one has less value, which is what Paul was trying to communicate to the Corinthians. I'll post more on this later, but it is at the very heart of what I want to see restored to the body of Christ. The ministry of the Spirit by all members is what makes a church incredibly strong, and what we have today is usually just the opposite.

It sounds like your leader wanted to exercise more control over the congregation, fearing that perhaps too much ministry by others might have resulted in some members splitting off to start their own congregations. It's a fear of letting God be in control, and I've seen it in a lot of churches myself. Things start out great and then "the man of God" steps up and puts an end to it. Who cares even if people split off? They're His people not ours, and if they feel led to start their own church then so be it. They need to be allowed to function as He leads them to, without anyone trying to control their lives and callings "for the Lord." Certainly when someone sins or is blatantly missing God, yes. Then you step in as a leader. But leave the leadership of the congregation to the Great Shepherd. Attempts to usurp His authority is not something He took lightly in New Testament times, and it sounds like your leader was missing it, and blowing what was on its way to becoming a really good thing.

Isn't it a shame how leaders do this? What a tragedy. It's like they get seduced by a controlling spirit. I've seen it time after time after time, and it thwarts the moves of God like nothing I've ever seen before. It's heartbreaking.

 

[Helen]

Yes, totally agree.

 

[Stranger]

Yes, but the questions are this:
1. Would it bear any witness with the Holy Spirit in the other believer?
2. Would the interpretation be consistent with all the details mentioned internally?


I get a sense. This part is something I am still developing, so when I have reservations about a dream I will start with the words, "If this dream is from the Lord..." to qualify that it might not be. When I'm very near certain or certain, these words are never included.


Stranger, many have a sense that the dream they had was important in some way, often in a way where they can't get it off their minds. But do they know who it is from? Most often, no. They have no clue what to make of it, but only that it won't go away and they want to see if anyone has an interpretation that makes any sense to them.

Now, once they are alerted to the fact that they are in fact receiving dreams from God it becomes a different story altogether. The more the interpretations get confirmed out and/or make sense of important issues going on in their lives, suddenly they start taking them more and more seriously, and trusting that they did indeed come from God. It is a transition process to having your eyes opened to see that God does indeed and IS indeed communicating to you in your dreams, which is precisely what this Amadeus dream has been about.


Are all open to receive them? Yes. Do all? Ummm... that's still debatable. I think there is a level of receptiveness that needs to be there.


Well, my suppositions get rather consistently confirmed by what we see happening in people's lives. Many are too personal to be posting them openly here, but I could show you all kinds of evidence for this. If there were not an abundance of evidence confirming things I would likely stop doing this. Though you think this is pride, my only interest is in serving God and others in it.


You make a jump not specified anywhere in scripture. But let me tell you why I am opposed to it. It is primarily to come to the defense of anyone who might read this thread who is called to interpret dreams. Rest assured I am praying and fasting for other gifts, including the ability to do exactly as you are requesting here, so as to alleviate all doubts (or more/ most of them). But this case you make would effectively denounce anyone who might be where I am now; i.e. that they are not truly being used of God unless they are walking in both interpretation AND especially powerful word of knowledge. This is a fallacy. Joseph did not exhibit both, yet was not to be disqualified as a true interpreter because of this. Your argument would disqualify many who are like him.

Who determines if it bears any witness with the Holy Spirit in the other believer? You, or people who fall for your charade?
Anyone could give an interpretation following any you give.

Well, if you got a sense from the Lord that a dream is of God, then God can also tell you the dream so that your interpretation can be trusted. Correct? I mean, we are talking miraculous power from God...right?

I see. They don't know if a dream is from God or not. But you do. But guess what. I don't believe you. Tell the dream, and then I will trust your interpretation.

What's debatable? (Joel 2:28) is clear.

No, I don't think it is pride. I think it is serious error...very serious error. It can be manipulative. Whether you are aware of it or not, I don't know. If you are and persist, you, as I said before, are on very dangerous ground.

The fact is, no one today is called to interpret dreams. You have dreamed this up. I already explained Joseph. Interesting that you like to bring up Joseph but never Daniel. It is not hard to see why.

Ok. Pray and fast. I have had a dream recently that I believe was from God. Tell me the dream and the interpretation. It was very precise, so I expect a precise interpretation.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

And none are complete, not even all of them taken together. Stranger, you speak as one in authority on this subject yet I don't recall you mentioning having any experience in the area. Tell me what you know about the spiritual gifts by experience and not by theory. And since we are discussing things openly, don't fall back on that it is a personal issue. What experience do you have in operating in supernatural gifts?

Btw, I will deal with the specific New Testament passages in question in a while. 1 Corinthians 12-14 presents serious problems for your argument.

The Bible is complete. Thus when you indicate none are complete it is evident you want to add some that are not there. That is handy. I don't need to tell you about my experience with spiritual gifts. My experience will be based upon the Word of God. I will not try and conform the Word of God to my experience or what I want for my experience.

I am not the one trying to pass off something that is not a spiritual gift. That is you. I simply am operating on a forum. So, I am not interested in trying to prove to you or anyone else my spiritual gift or gifts.

Stranger

 

[Hidden In Him]

Who determines if it bears any witness with the Holy Spirit in the other believer? You, or people who fall for your charade?
Anyone could give an interpretation following any you give.

Well, if you got a sense from the Lord that a dream is of God, then God can also tell you the dream so that your interpretation can be trusted. Correct? I mean, we are talking miraculous power from God...right?

I see. They don't know if a dream is from God or not. But you do. But guess what. I don't believe you. Tell the dream, and then I will trust your interpretation.

What's debatable? (Joel 2:28) is clear.

No, I don't think it is pride. I think it is serious error...very serious error. It can be manipulative. Whether you are aware of it or not, I don't know. If you are and persist, you, as I said before, are on very dangerous ground.

The fact is, no one today is called to interpret dreams. You have dreamed this up. I already explained Joseph. Interesting that you like to bring up Joseph but never Daniel. It is not hard to see why.

Ok. Pray and fast. I have had a dream recently that I believe was from God. Tell me the dream and the interpretation. It was very precise, so I expect a precise interpretation.

Stranger

The Bible is complete. Thus when you indicate none are complete it is evident you want to add some that are not there. That is handy.

Stranger, no offense (and I know you don't care about offenses. I'm saying it so others will know my intentions, not you), but your responses are becoming petty again. I will discuss the issue if you debate me on a serious level, but you're just being redundant when you're not being petty. You're not addressing my points while putting words in my mouth instead. That's not serious discussion; that's playing games. Address my statement seriously and you will get a serious answer. The only thing new you've added here is that I have a warning now. Warning duly noted.

I don't need to tell you about my experience with spiritual gifts. My experience will be based upon the Word of God.

As I suspected, but at least I give you credit for admitting it. You have no experience in this area whatsoever, yet insist that your understanding of the subject is accurate.

I am not the one trying to pass off something that is not a spiritual gift.

You are the one trying to pass yourself off as "rightly dividing the word" on this issue when you know almost nothing about it, which is worse than knowing nothing at all since the little you think you know gives you the impetus to assume the mantle of teacher on this subject.

I simply am operating on a forum.

You are simply proposing and defending a fraudulent argument regarding a subject matter that will be of vital importance to the end-time church (visions, dreams and prophecy), as you yourself admitted by drawing attention to it in quoting Joel 2:28.

 

[Stranger]

Stranger, no offense (and I know you don't care about offenses. I'm saying it so others will know my intentions, not you), but your responses are becoming petty again. I will discuss the issue if you debate me on a serious level, but you're just being redundant when you're not being petty. You're not addressing my points while putting words in my mouth instead. That's not serious discussion; that's playing games. Address my statement seriously and you will get a serious answer. The only thing new you've added here is that I have a warning now. Warning duly noted.


As I suspected, but at least I give you credit for admitting it. You have no experience in this area whatsoever, yet insist that your understanding of the subject is accurate.


You are the one trying to pass yourself off as "rightly dividing the word" on this issue when you know almost nothing about it, which is worse than knowing nothing at all since the little you think you know gives you the impetus to assume the mantle of teacher on this subject.


You are simply proposing and defending a fraudulent argument regarding a subject matter that will be of vital importance to the end-time church (visions, dreams and prophecy), as you yourself admitted by drawing attention to it in quoting Joel 2:28.

I have addressed your points.

Admitted what?

Again, you're the one trying to pass off to others a 'spiritual gift' that doesn't exist.

No, the visions, dreams , and prophecies are given to all believers. (Joel 2:38) Not to a select few. And no spiritual gift of interpretation of dreams is ever given.

I had a dream. I believe it is from God. Tell me the dream, and the interpretation. Then you will have some credibility. If not, you are just a phony like so many others.

Stranger

 

[Triumph1300]

I had a dream. I believe it is from God. Tell me the dream, and the interpretation.

Don't be absurd.
You are out of line.

 

[Stranger]

Don't be absurd.
You are out of line.

Who made you sheriff?

Is it absurd? You bet it is. But no more absurd then the claim of having a gift of 'dream interpretation'. There is a true miraculous knowing and walking with God via the Holy Ghost and the written Word, the Bible. To add to that is to invite error and trouble later.

Stranger

 

[Hidden In Him]

I had a dream. I believe it is from God. Tell me the dream, and the interpretation. Then you will have some credibility. If not, you are just a phony like so many others.

Stranger, let me show you something. You posted this thread awhile back, sharing your fears that you might end up standing before God being ashamed.
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/the-thing-i-fear-as-a-believer-in-christ.25275/

In the OP you stated, "To have Him ashamed of me would be unbearable." Well, for starters, while I think it's a good thing to share such things before the body of Christ, since you make a habit of directly confronting me and accusing me of being a "phony" and teaching serious error, I have no such fears. I have no fear of standing before Him ashamed, because perfect love casts out all fear, and I walk in obedience, Stranger. The fact that you have these fears should be telling you something. You have sin in your life.

And I believe the biggest part of your problem starts right here:

"But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, 'My lord delayeth his coming,' and shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looks not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:48-51)

This was spoken to the disciples, and it was a warning that if they mistreated and abused the body of Christ instead of watching over them, they would be held responsible, and might be going to Hell not Heaven if they chose to do so. You treat others in similar ways, Stranger, and I don't mean just me. You are continually abusive and appear to enjoy being so. Yet when I invited you to a thread to discuss if being derisive to other believers was condoned by the word of God you failed to show up. Why? Probably because you know there is no defense for it. Yet still you refuse to repent. Yet you fear being ashamed.

Now, does it bother me that you put this challenge before me? Not in the least. Personally I like a challenge, and I will be seeking the Lord endlessly until I go on to be with Him for greater gifts of the Spirit. But it is not up to me how the Spirit of God uses me. You of course will probably take this opportunity to mock me again, but the fact that you don't seem to acknowledge this point is more proof positive to me that you don't know what you're talking about.

I had to forego responding to your last post because your response was in many ways just playing games, and I have seen other evidence that this is sometimes part of your motivation for getting into debates with people here. That might be fine on some secular debate forum, but here it has more serious ramifications than that. In the afore mentioned thread, at one point you posted:

Well, I'm looking to win any rounds. Going to be out of touch for several days. Now is the chance to 'dream on'.

Stranger

I'm never looking to "win rounds" when I discuss serious issues pertaining to Christian spirituality. It is not a game to me. It does, however, appear to be a game to you. And this is why you drive me to warn you. You are presenting unfounded positions, then mocking me, and then daring me to fulfill something only Christ in me can fulfill. It amounts to daring the Lord Himself to do something. And no I did not say I am Christ. I said you are daring me to fulfill something only Christ in me can fulfill. You continually place yourself in these position by your own game-playing and willful behavior, and you need to be taking matters more seriously than that, for your own good.

 

[amadeus]

The Bible is complete.

In a sense you are correct, but who knows everything God is saying to everyone through the Bible?

Then again consider this:

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." John 21:25

Then again:

Is God limited by the Bible? He is limited certainly by His own Word. He will never contradict Himself. But as we know people will find and have found what they call contradictions in the Bible. Does this mean we should take their word for it and throw out the whole thing or even go in favor of one rendering of the Word of God as opposed to another? Or should we go along with Thomas Jefferson who cut out and discarded parts of the Bible that he believed should not be in it?

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." I Cor 13:9-10

Who is it that knows what this perfect is and who is it that will do away with that which is in part? Not me. Was Gamaliel wrong in what he said here?

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5-38-39

We certainly at least give some serious consideration to his point of view, shouldn't we?

 

[Triumph1300]

Who made you sheriff?

You were making absurd statements.
So, you can't handle disagreement.
Fine.

You better be careful, there are scriptures about grieving the Holy Spirit.

 

[Stranger]

Stranger, let me show you something. You posted this thread awhile back, sharing your fears that you might end up standing before God being ashamed.
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/the-thing-i-fear-as-a-believer-in-christ.25275/

In the OP you stated, "To have Him ashamed of me would be unbearable." Well, for starters, while I think it's a good thing to share such things before the body of Christ, since you make a habit of directly confronting me and accusing me of being a "phony" and teaching serious error, I have no such fears. I have no fear of standing before Him ashamed, because perfect love casts out all fear, and I walk in obedience, Stranger. The fact that you have these fears should be telling you something. You have sin in your life.

And I believe the biggest part of your problem starts right here:

"But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, 'My lord delayeth his coming,' and shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looks not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 24:48-51)

This was spoken to the disciples, and it was a warning that if they mistreated and abused the body of Christ instead of watching over them, they would be held responsible, and might be going to Hell not Heaven if they chose to do so. You treat others in similar ways, Stranger, and I don't mean just me. You are continually abusive and appear to enjoy being so. Yet when I invited you to a thread to discuss if being derisive to other believers was condoned by the word of God you failed to show up. Why? Probably because you know there is no defense for it. Yet still you refuse to repent. Yet you fear being ashamed.

Now, does it bother me that you put this challenge before me? Not in the least. Personally I like a challenge, and I will be seeking the Lord endlessly until I go on to be with Him for greater gifts of the Spirit. But it is not up to me how the Spirit of God uses me. You of course will probably take this opportunity to mock me again, but the fact that you don't seem to acknowledge this point is more proof positive to me that you don't know what you're talking about.

I had to forego responding to your last post because your response was in many ways just playing games, and I have seen other evidence that this is sometimes part of your motivation for getting into debates with people here. That might be fine on some secular debate forum, but here it has more serious ramifications than that. In the afore mentioned thread, at one point you posted:


I'm never looking to "win rounds" when I discuss serious issues pertaining to Christian spirituality. It is not a game to me. It does, however, appear to be a game to you. And this is why you drive me to warn you. You are presenting unfounded positions, then mocking me, and then daring me to fulfill something only Christ in me can fulfill. It amounts to daring the Lord Himself to do something. And no I did not say I am Christ. I said you are daring me to fulfill something only Christ in me can fulfill. You continually place yourself in these position by your own game-playing and willful behavior, and you need to be taking matters more seriously than that, for your own good.

Always glad to hear one is better shape than me in their walk with the Lord. Yes, I have sins and wrestle with Sin in my life.

Are you saying you are the 'fellow servant' and I am 'smiting' you? Trying to reveal error and wrong teaching is not smiting.

You will have to give the address of this post of yours where you say I failed to show up. I don't recall it. I could have missed it or misread it. Or maybe I didn't think it pertained to what was being talked about. Whatever, show me where this was.

I am not sure what you think I need to repent of. Derisive to believers?

You say it is not up to you how God uses you. So, you want to put the responsibility upon God for you not being able to give the dream and the interpretation. You want to put the responsibility upon God for your 'gift' though He never identified any such gift.

Actually, I do not play games. I leave that to others. I have tried it before, but I am just not a game person. As far as debate and argument over doctrine and beliefs, it is serious, and viewing it going through 'rounds' is legitimate. If you win a round, then you can build further on it. But if you lose a round, it is hard to go forward.

Spiritual gifts are from God. You claim to have a spiritual gift of interpretation of dreams. That means it comes from God. God can give the dream and the interpretation as he did with Daniel. It is actually you who are daring the Lord to interpret dreams to you, when He has never given that as a spiritual gift. I am responding to your claim requiring you to give the dream first.

I do take this matter seriously.

Stranger