Ecumenism

[APAK]

@aspen and @Naomi25
Aspen and Naomi: I read you both loud and clear. I cannot vouch for all of MJR views as I cannot yours as well. Don’t have sufficient inputs on this subject.

I am not a MJR apologist either, as I write a little more about myself here.

I just read a few posts where I thought you did not understand the significance of the believer being a part of the body of Christ, without going to cyclic worship services in a common building with doctrines that are not necessarily essential or retard spiritual growth. The last part of the last sentence was in my mind and I did not address it in my previous reply to you. I also thought you suggested that cyclic church gathering were essential to be a part of the body of Christ.

Like anyone here, I base my initial beliefs and thoughts on the teachings of others and other writings. As I continued to gather more information as I matured, and especially since I gave my heart to Christ, I have denounced a great deal of what I learned. Maybe MJK has had a similar history as mine and now holds a type of ‘grudge’ for what he thinks is false and misleading teachings and doctrine.

As a Christian, I believe that the spirit of Christ within me guides my thoughts on spiritual things in the main. As such I am more sensitive to sense and listen the spirit’s reaction to false teachings. I listen to this spirit over the teachings of men, every time. The trick is to be sure that my carnal mind is not speaking and taking credit instead of the spirit in my heart, and then I over react unnecessarily to false claims made by my ego. Again, MJR maybe be overreaching or assuming something that is not there? I do not know.

I do understand what you have said, and I will keep your account of it as my future entering view on this subject.

Thanks for your concern and answer.

Remember, I'm a student of the truth as you are. I don't have all the critical answers, my goal is to provide a well-weighted opinion and based on the spirit with me, as my guide.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[mjrhealth]

@Naomi25

Something to think on. Get the cleanest glass you have in teh house, than fill it with teh purest water you can get, probably distilled water. Now what to you see. Picture this as our Lords Bride, His Church, spotless clean without blemish. Now get some food dye, any color, and put a drop in the glass, than another and another and another, what do you see, teh glass getting less clear, and teh more drops you put in the darker it becomes. That is mens religion, that is mens teachings that is what you get from church. Now take that glass and try separate the dye from the water, see if you can do it, because that is what God has to do when people from religious organizations finally come to Him, He meed to get all that religion out of them, and if they are unwilling they will never be His bride pure clean spotless.

Is that what you want.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Is the place, space, building with the same folks and preacher that I attend growing my faith where I 'fee'' the presence of God,

Christianity has nothing to do with whether one 'feels' they are Christian or whether one 'feels' that God is there.

Christianity is about the historic facts of Jesus's life, death and resurrection as well as the promisesof God as found in the bible.

One might be in a church where the minister does not know God, where most attendees don't know God yet God's promise that he will be where two or three gather in my name will always br honoured. yes in such a gatheing one has to feed oneself.

 

[APAK]

Christianity has nothing to do with whether one 'feels' they are Christian or whether one 'feels' that God is there.

Christianity is about the historic facts of Jesus's life, death and resurrection as well as the promisesof God as found in the bible.

One might be in a church where the minister does not know God, where most attendees don't know God yet God's promise that he will be where two or three gather in my name will always br honoured. yes in such a gatheing one has to feed oneself.

You are taking liberty with my words..

pls read them once more....hint: 'feel' spiritual sensations regarding the presence of God, it has a specific meaning and intent. Don't you 'feel' the spirit when you are in the spirit of Christ and on a high for the Lord? I do 'feel' God's presence through Christ.
You should try it sometime.

I was never talking about Christianity. So in this view, you are correct. Christianity cannot 'feel' the spirit because this term Christianity is defined by me as those secular non-believers, and not true believers.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25

Something to think on. Get the cleanest glass you have in teh house, than fill it with teh purest water you can get, probably distilled water. Now what to you see. Picture this as our Lords Bride, His Church, spotless clean without blemish. Now get some food dye, any color, and put a drop in the glass, than another and another and another, what do you see, teh glass getting less clear, and teh more drops you put in the darker it becomes. That is mens religion, that is mens teachings that is what you get from church. Now take that glass and try separate the dye from the water, see if you can do it, because that is what God has to do when people from religious organizations finally come to Him, He meed to get all that religion out of them, and if they are unwilling they will never be His bride pure clean spotless.

Is that what you want.

I see what you are saying, and I appreciate what you are trying to get across. But here's what I see the bible saying. Our glass is already grimy. Doesn't matter where you are at...in man's religion, or by yourself, whatever. That's your starting point. When you recognize your sin and know you need Jesus, an exchange happens. Jesus took our grimy water on the cross and gave us his distilled water. When we belong to Jesus, when God looks at our souls, all he see's is Jesus' distilled water. That's why it's called substitutionary atonement.
That's why Paul says that it is completely a gift from God, that we can boast in nothing.

Now, I grant you...there are plenty of people out there who use the name of God to make themselves both rich and powerful. Some of them are probably deluded enough to actually think they are, in fact, real Christians. As you pointed out, there will come a point where they will cry out to Jesus "Lord, Lord!". But they are here with their own message, for their own agenda. And they fool a lot of people, and they led many astray. That is why it is so important to be wise.....God gives many things for our walk. Not just Pastors. Not just our church family to gather with locally. Not just the Spirit. Not just our conscience and prayer, and not just his precious and unchanging Word. When we put all of them together and walk as he wants us to, it's not that easy to be fooled by the wolves. In fact, those things together build you up and make you stronger, just as good family is supposed to. Just as Paul says...all part of the same body, just different purposes...one is the arm, one is the leg, one is the eye. But we're all needed.

 

[Naomi25]

@aspen and @Naomi25
Aspen and Naomi: I read you both loud and clear. I cannot vouch for all of MJR views as I cannot yours as well. Don’t have sufficient inputs on this subject.

I am not a MJR apologist either, as I write a little more about myself here.

I just read a few posts where I thought you did not understand the significance of the believer being a part of the body of Christ, without going to cyclic worship services in a common building with doctrines that are not necessarily essential or retard spiritual growth. The last part of the last sentence was in my mind and I did not address it in my previous reply to you. I also thought you suggested that cyclic church gathering were essential to be a part of the body of Christ.

Like anyone here, I base my initial beliefs and thoughts on the teachings of others and other writings. As I continued to gather more information as I matured, and especially since I gave my heart to Christ, I have denounced a great deal of what I learned. Maybe MJK has had a similar history as mine and now holds a type of ‘grudge’ for what he thinks is false and misleading teachings and doctrine.

As a Christian, I believe that the spirit of Christ within me guides my thoughts on spiritual things in the main. As such I am more sensitive to sense and listen the spirit’s reaction to false teachings. I listen to this spirit over the teachings of men, every time. The trick is to be sure that my carnal mind is not speaking and taking credit instead of the spirit in my heart, and then I over react unnecessarily to false claims made by my ego. Again, MJR maybe be overreaching or assuming something that is not there? I do not know.

I do understand what you have said, and I will keep your account of it as my future entering view on this subject.

Thanks for your concern and answer.

Remember, I'm a student of the truth as you are. I don't have all the critical answers, my goal is to provide a well-weighted opinion and based on the spirit with me, as my guide.

Bless you,

APAK

Thanks for your reply APAK.
I understand that people could, quite plausibly, hold a grudge because of bad experiences they've had as they've walked along the way. Who hasn't, in some way, I suppose. We are, after all, surrounded by sinful people. Even Christians aren't perfect...just forgiven!
But...I think it's important to realize that God calls us to both his Word as well as his Spirit. I get very concerned by the number of people who dismiss his Word and rely only "the Spirits leading". Don't get me wrong, having the Spirit within us is an immeasurable treasure. But the bible tells us we must test the spirits. That tells us that there are other spirits out there who would seek to deceive, lead astray and destroy us. The way we can be absolutely sure it is God's Holy Spirit who is guiding us, is that his will will be in line with God's Word, the bible. When the two line up, the truth resonates within us with...I'm actually not sure how to describe it. Absolute knowledge and a feeling of wonder and right-ness?
So...I think I would say to anyone who had been left hurt by any group....the bible does say it's both important and wonderful to gather together with our brothers and sisters. So, don't give up! Keep looking, and keep praying, and God will lead you to a place where your unique gifts and talents will be needed.

 

[APAK]

Thanks for your reply APAK.
I understand that people could, quite plausibly, hold a grudge because of bad experiences they've had as they've walked along the way. Who hasn't, in some way, I suppose. We are, after all, surrounded by sinful people. Even Christians aren't perfect...just forgiven!
But...I think it's important to realize that God calls us to both his Word as well as his Spirit. I get very concerned by the number of people who dismiss his Word and rely only "the Spirits leading". Don't get me wrong, having the Spirit within us is an immeasurable treasure. But the bible tells us we must test the spirits. That tells us that there are other spirits out there who would seek to deceive, lead astray and destroy us. The way we can be absolutely sure it is God's Holy Spirit who is guiding us, is that his will will be in line with God's Word, the bible. When the two line up, the truth resonates within us with...I'm actually not sure how to describe it. Absolute knowledge and a feeling of wonder and right-ness?
So...I think I would say to anyone who had been left hurt by any group....the bible does say it's both important and wonderful to gather together with our brothers and sisters. So, don't give up! Keep looking, and keep praying, and God will lead you to a place where your unique gifts and talents will be needed.

Thanks Naomi. I do understand your words. Yes, we are to gather with brothers and sisters and learn truth of God through all the resource at-hand, both physical and invisible. We should love one another with empathy and consideration, as we maintain and do not compromise what we believe makes us a true believer. We don't have to answer everyone's queries to their satisfaction especially if we sense unnecessary friction or keeps us on edge.

No one said we cannot say 'no comment' or we are 'not sure' to another person's pressing question. Don't get caught into thinking you have to show knowledge to a bully or a disrupter.

Now since I've just said this, I hope my next new thread I'm ready to post does not become real fireworks. I have to say what I think scripture and the spirit tells me. This is a historical dividing subject/type of massive proportions.

Well into the lion's den I shall go...

Bless you,

APAK
​

 

[pia]

this guy is saying that we shouldn't be gathering together

Having known him for a long time, I know that is not what he means, but rather than if we come together, we should come together in spirit and in truth..... In agreement and as one.......I have also yet to see that for real in any of the churches I have visited over the past 3 plus decades, so that's where he's coming from...he had been raised a catholic, going to mass etc. but it wasn't until he heard the Lord speak, that his life with Jesus began.
You can liken it a bit to various football clubs...They all have their different colors, different fans ( who at times will even beat each other up)..When they wear their particular club shirts, that is what they represent, their club..But yet, they all do play football.............What we join ourselves to, that is what we become, so isn't it better to just join ourselves with Jesus ? I would suggest you try to write to him yourself and have a little patience, we all come from different places, but ought we not end up in the same one ?

 

[brakelite]

Having known him for a long time, I know that is not what he means, but rather than if we come together, we should come together in spirit and in truth..... In agreement and as one.......I have also yet to see that for real in any of the churches I have visited over the past 3 plus decades, so that's where he's coming from...he had been raised a catholic, going to mass etc. but it wasn't until he heard the Lord speak, that his life with Jesus began.
You can liken it a bit to various football clubs...They all have their different colors, different fans ( who at times will even beat each other up)..When they wear their particular club shirts, that is what they represent, their club..But yet, they all do play football.............What we join ourselves to, that is what we become, so isn't it better to just join ourselves with Jesus ? I would suggest you try to write to him yourself and have a little patience, we all come from different places, but ought we not end up in the same one ?

If we all come to Jesus as you say, and we are all seeking truth and the righteousness of Christ, all seeking to advance His kingdom and all believing the same concepts and principles found in scripture, and are willing to live up to them, then does it not make sense that Jesus would bring all those people together into an organized and efficiently led group to get the gospel into all the world using what shared resources, talents, gifts, experience, and skills that make us who we are? On our own we can do so very little...without Jesus we can do nothing. But together, and with Jesus, the seemingly impossible becomes reality.
I belong to such a church. A worldwide organization. But not all local congregations are like that. But the local congregation where I meet is one. Grown from barely 20 and one female elder to 200 and 5 male elders today. In just 2 years. I have been to local churches (within my denomination) that I only attended once and swore never to return. People are people. And some congregations are fraught with some of the worst of human behavior, despite the fact that they are reading from the same book...even the same page. But having the truth in doctrine is meaningless if one does not allow oneself to be sanctified by that truth.
But take heart bro. If you keep faithful, keep surrendering each day to God's leading, and don't come to Him with any preconceived ideas on where He should or should not lead you, you will find a home and a family in which to grow and be fed and to share what gifts and talents you have with others.

 

[Naomi25]

Having known him for a long time, I know that is not what he means, but rather than if we come together, we should come together in spirit and in truth..... In agreement and as one.......I have also yet to see that for real in any of the churches I have visited over the past 3 plus decades, so that's where he's coming from...he had been raised a catholic, going to mass etc. but it wasn't until he heard the Lord speak, that his life with Jesus began.
You can liken it a bit to various football clubs...They all have their different colors, different fans ( who at times will even beat each other up)..When they wear their particular club shirts, that is what they represent, their club..But yet, they all do play football.............What we join ourselves to, that is what we become, so isn't it better to just join ourselves with Jesus ? I would suggest you try to write to him yourself and have a little patience, we all come from different places, but ought we not end up in the same one ?

Well...thank you for this bit of insight into him. It helps a little. But as well as asking people like me to have patience with him (which is fair enough), I hope you also, are counseling him to be a little more circumspect on how he vocalizes his past experiences and his cautions to people about the various wolves out there. Because truly, if I were a new Christian, I would have understood him to be saying that I should completely cut myself off from other Christians and worshiping together because none of them could be trusted.

I do completely understand that it can be difficult to find a group of Christians that don't have some sort of friction involved. But...even if we do as you suggest, focus completely on Jesus instead of our "colours"....which...you might find a lot of places try to do anyway....you are probably going to find that that friction remains. People, even "saved" people, are not perfect, not yet. We see things differently, feel things differently, and that includes our relationship with Jesus. We feel called differently, and understand scripture differently. Granted, not all are right, and things can get sticky....but sometimes it's just a case of differing perspectives and perhaps clashing personalities. Sadly, sometimes just because a person is a Christian doesn't mean they haven't learned to take their foot out of their mouth. Or to stop being a jerk. Remember...still human, just saved and on a path towards becoming more like our Saviour...and sometimes that's really...really slow!

My point is...I don't know if you, or he, can expect to find a church gathering where you won't have some friction. But that doesn't mean God isn't calling you to be there. Maybe even because of that friction. Just a thought.

 

[brakelite]

If we all come to Jesus as you say, and we are all seeking truth and the righteousness of Christ, all seeking to advance His kingdom and all believing the same concepts and principles found in scripture, and are willing to live up to them, then does it not make sense that Jesus would bring all those people together into an organized and efficiently led group to get the gospel into all the world using what shared resources, talents, gifts, experience, and skills that make us who we are? On our own we can do so very little...without Jesus we can do nothing. But together, and with Jesus, the seemingly impossible becomes reality.
I belong to such a church. A worldwide organization. But not all local congregations are like that. But the local congregation where I meet is one. Grown from barely 20 and one female elder to 200 and 5 male elders today. In just 2 years. I have been to local churches (within my denomination) that I only attended once and swore never to return. People are people. And some congregations are fraught with some of the worst of human behavior, despite the fact that they are reading from the same book...even the same page. But having the truth in doctrine is meaningless if one does not allow oneself to be sanctified by that truth.
But take heart bro. If you keep faithful, keep surrendering each day to God's leading, and don't come to Him with any preconceived ideas on where He should or should not lead you, you will find a home and a family in which to grow and be fed and to share what gifts and talents you have with others.

With all the above said, it is recognized that along with the good guys being gathered together, there are going to be a few tares growing up among them, which we are instructed we are not to tear out...that is the work of the angels at the time of harvest.

 

[mjrhealth]

dismiss his Word

Word! really which version??. Jesus is the word of God come in the flesh, He is the truth in Him there is no lie, I cannot call the "bible" the word of God, because than I would be calling Him a liar, a hypocrite and a deceiver, and He is none of that, God is not the author of confusion so choose your god and choose your confusion.

 

[aspen]

True ecumenism is loving God and neighbor, despite individual expression or doctrine.

 

[Naomi25]

Word! really which version??. Jesus is the word of God come in the flesh, He is the truth in Him there is no lie, I cannot call the "bible" the word of God, because than I would be calling Him a liar, a hypocrite and a deceiver, and He is none of that, God is not the author of confusion so choose your god and choose your confusion.

Oh brother.
Are you seriously telling me you don't get the concept of the different versions?
How many ways would the English language allow me to say that I think you are dead wrong?

Wrong: Untrue, amiss, awry, bad, false, erroneous, mistaken, misguided, unsound, inaccurate, in error, not right, off track,...and more.

And yet...they all mean the same thing.
The different bible versions are just different ways of saying what the original text does, and because we don't all speak Hebrew and Greek, that was always going to need to happen.
If you refuse to acknowledge the Bible as God's word to us...as his message to us, so that we might know of all he and Christ have done for us throughout history...then there is absolutely nothing left to say to you. You are left at the mercy of whatever spirit you happen to think may be that of god with no way of knowing or backing it up.

 

[pia]

On our own we can do so very little...without Jesus we can do nothing

I certainly agree with this, as I know others do, but quite a few I have come across believe it's their responsibility to 'oversee' other peoples lives, becoming in a sense their judges....Must do this ! Must not do that ! We need to find Him in the Truth that He is Love.....A Bible cannot give you a hug, but the Living Jesus can.....If people could just truly believe in His resurrection....Seems many only believe He can exist in heaven, I was shown to be wrong on this point also hahaha..He is with us, always

 

[pia]

We feel called differently, and understand scripture differently.

We were called to Love in the same way we have discovered His Love for us, but if we have not found that, how can we pass on this wondrous truth to others...How can we Love with His love, if we do not accept it into ourselves, and that has zero to do with attendance in churches or how many times you read the Bible....His Love is real, and is capable of bringing an enormous change in our lives, which should then hopefully be passed onto others, through that Love, not by beating people over the head with scriptures....

 

[brakelite]

I certainly agree with this, as I know others do, but quite a few I have come across believe it's their responsibility to 'oversee' other peoples lives, becoming in a sense their judges....Must do this ! Must not do that ! We need to find Him in the Truth that He is Love.....A Bible cannot give you a hug, but the Living Jesus can.....If people could just truly believe in His resurrection....Seems many only believe He can exist in heaven, I was shown to be wrong on this point also hahaha..He is with us, always

The physical Jesus is in heaven, yes, but His Spirit abides in us...we have an even greater advantage than did Adam before he fell. He had Jesus beside him now and again...we have Him in us till the day we die. If Adam had no excuse for failing to overcome, what excuse do we?
And yes, the inquisition, that mechanism for judging what people think, hasn't gone away.

 

[pia]

The physical Jesus is in heaven,

He can however be anywhere He desires, even in a body to this day....He can be light or He can appear as a 'normal' living person....He still has His body, only not the blood.. It wasn't only His spirit which was resurrected, His body was too, except the life which is in the blood, is not required by Him anymore....He IS the Life...

 

[brakelite]

Now since I've just said this, I hope my next new thread I'm ready to post does not become real fireworks. I have to say what I think scripture and the spirit tells me. This is a historical dividing subject/type of massive proportions.

Well into the lion's den I shall go...

Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee.

 

[brakelite]

He can however be anywhere He desires, even in a body to this day....He can be light or He can appear as a 'normal' living person....He still has His body, only not the blood.. It wasn't only His spirit which was resurrected, His body was too, except the life which is in the blood, is not required by Him anymore....He IS the Life...

Hi Pia. I don't entirely agree with you here. The way I see things is that when Jesus became a human being, there was no sub-clause in His agreement with His Father that said 'temporary', or 'part human'. First, in the OT the priest entered into the holy place of the sanctuary after the sacrifice to minister the blood of the sacrifice before the altar of incense and the veil. Then once a year on the day of atonement the High Priest only was permitted to enter the Most Holy Place before the very ark and presence of God. With blood. These services were a direct copy, shadow, of that which would take place in heaven, and absolutely necessary in the atonement. Without the blood, there is no remission. Jesus has also entered into the Most Holy Place before the throne of His God, the Father, to minister His blood before Him. This is of course not meaning He is literally sprinkling His blood before the throne, but He has dedicated His life as a ransom for many...that is His blood is offered a ransom and is essential in the service being now undertaken in the heavenly sanctuary on our behalf. Jesus is just as human as we are. If not, then He was not truly given to the human race as the scriptures reveal. He doesn't 'magically' transform HImself into another being or apparition ...He is eternally limited through having a body that can only be one place at a time...His omnipresence is only through the Spirit.
As you say, the life is in the blood. In this Jesus is as dependant upon the life of the Father in Him as we are.