Ecumenism

[Naomi25]

See you get it all wrong

ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation

it was men who called it church, which has noting to do with anything, and what has religion got to do with God,

Luk_11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

how can mens religions stand when they are divided by denomination and doctires,

1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

It is Christ or men it is by teh Spirit or by religion,

do you desire to be like Christ or a JEw, JW SDA, Morman , Greek orthodox, protestant, or onbe of teh other myriads of religions. choose wisely.



only one way in and it is not religion.

So we agree that "Church" (ἐκκλησίαν) means: "an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers". Or, if you like, "people called out from the world and to God".

So...on my part...an apparently anyone else who uses words to describe thoughts, images and ideas to portray said thoughts, images and ideas...that means that the word "Church"....means the people who are now following Christ and then gather together to do so.

But I don't know. Perhaps you want to invent a new word that means the same thing? It could be like, a new, secret word that evil, 'religion' wouln't know and therefore couldn't pervert. I think I'll happily sit in my Church, since Jesus and his disciples were happy to use ἐκκλησίαν to describe it for our gatherings, it'll do for me too.

But, you know...go forth and argue some more about word usage and definition. By all means. It doesn't make you look....odd. At all. Truly.

 

[mjrhealth]

So we agree that "Church" (ἐκκλησίαν) means: "an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers". Or, if you like, "people called out from the world and to God".

So...on my part...an apparently anyone else who uses words to describe thoughts, images and ideas to portray said thoughts, images and ideas...that means that the word "Church"....means the people who are now following Christ and then gather together to do so.

But I don't know. Perhaps you want to invent a new word that means the same thing? It could be like, a new, secret word that evil, 'religion' wouln't know and therefore couldn't pervert. I think I'll happily sit in my Church, since Jesus and his disciples were happy to use ἐκκλησίαν to describe it for our gatherings, it'll do for me too.

But, you know...go forth and argue some more about word usage and definition. By all means. It doesn't make you look....odd. At all. Truly.

If you want to go to "church" thats fine but you are the "church" if you must put it that way, how can you go to something that your are. When Christ comes where will you be found in "church" or in Him. And when the world falls apart who will you run to, church or Christ. Being in "church" does not make one a part of His Church", that only happens when you are in Him, and if you where, you would rather Him than mens religions and doctrines, teh truth is in Christ alone you wont find it in "church: or men.

 

[aspen]

Keep relying on Church doctrines and denying you’re doing so,MJR.......if you double down enough perhaps we Americans will elect you president in 2020.

 

[mjrhealth]

Keep relying on Church doctrines and denying you’re doing so,MJR.......if you double down enough perhaps we Americans will elect you president in 2020.

How can one rely upon church doctrines when one doesnt go to church. those who are in Christ are teh church. Only has one Head, His name is Jesus,

IS good God knows mens pride and arrogance and how they would rather believe men that God. HE gave us the choice, you chose "catholism" over Christ and so you are married to the cathoic church like BOL and one day you may sound just like Him cant be helped, what you are joined too, you made teh choice now you know you are without excuse.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Windmillcharge:

I believe your mindset is off here. There is a sense of urgency in this OP. The point in the OP is to separate ourselves from the status quo, with the same clergy, indoctrinated and taught by the same theological schools with the same sometimes warped doctrinal practices, in the same denominations. Like going back and hitting yourself against the same wall expecting to get a ‘breakthrough.’

We should not go back into the fire and try and resuscitate and salvage or somehow regain the same type of truth from the same source, as you seem to suggest we do. They are like dilapidated buildings, needing to be avoided and even torn down. The world is and will continue to prop up these broken-down institutions that continue to preach false truth.

We are now to look within ourselves and truly reassess our faith and confidence in our belief in Christ. To know we are really living a life style that pleases God. That we have confidence in our salvation through our Father as we continue to grow in/as Christ.

Bless you,

APAK

If a church or a minister is teaching/preaching something that is incorrect etc and one has discussed this with him. Then yes if there is no change one should leave.

The assumption that every church is preaching something that is incorrect is not true.

God organised temple/church worship because we need to be part of a community.

 

[aspen]

How can one rely upon church doctrines when one doesnt go to church. those who are in Christ are teh church. Only has one Head, His name is Jesus,

IS good God knows mens pride and arrogance and how they would rather believe men that God. HE gave us the choice, you chose "catholism" over Christ and so you are married to the cathoic church like BOL and one day you may sound just like Him cant be helped, what you are joined too, you made teh choice now you know you are without excuse.

You are living proof of a person who rejects church, but uses Christian theology. We have been through this ad nauseum. Unless Jesus appeared to you and told you everything you know about Him, you learned it from church sources. Isn’t it embarrassing for you to not recognize this fact?

 

[APAK]

If a church or a minister is teaching/preaching something that is incorrect etc and one has discussed this with him. Then yes if there is no change one should leave.

The assumption that every church is preaching something that is incorrect is not true.

God organised temple/church worship because we need to be part of a community.

Windmillcharge:
I agree that there are many God-fearing preachers out there. And yes I would query anything that did not sit well with you. If you seriously are concerned about conformity to the image of Christ and walking in his spirit that God provided you, then ask yourself and answwr at least this question.

Is the place, space, building with the same folks and preacher that I attend growing my faith where I 'fee'' the presence of God, working in the spirit of Christ, rather than through my soulish will. You may have to meditate on this for a while especially if you are entrenched in your current environment. MY answer years ago was a clear resounding No!

I stopped doing 'church' in the classical sense. I was drawn more to fellow individual believers as it is the body of Christ, whether it be on here, in a home, in another building, on the street. This is a tough choice for many believers to face. This is a part of this OP. It is saying have you answered this question. GET OUT if you are lead to leave...it is a spiritual affair, not a mental exercise to 'feel good.' It is a critical heartfelt decision that needs prayer.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[pia]

which means their following men rather than God

Not everyone is able to express themselves as eloquently as others.........The way individuals take offense, when he is clearly having a go at the doctrines and traditions, to me is a red flag..........Why on earth get so upset ? Do you think he is talking about you in particular ? Is it more important for you to be 'right' than to get closer to Jesus ? Then again I do believe Jesus is referred to as a stumbling block to some, and that most certainly seems to be the case.......

 

[brakelite]

I believe ecumenism as a concept being promoted by man as a sense of duty to God, I think is misguided...I do not believe God seeks to unite people who are so disparate when it comes to true doctrine. The differences, despite the hooplah and good press, between Rome and true Protestantism have never been resolved. Those differences go to the heart of the Godhead...the meaning of the gospel...the state of man...differences so discordant that the claim that the protest is over as declared by the late Tony Palmer and Kenneth Copeland is a lie.
I belong to a specific denomination. Have been so for 20 years. Not everyone in my denomination will enter God's kingdom. Not because we don't teach the truth, but because not everyone allows that truth to sanctify them. It is the same in all Christian faiths. There are true Christians in all denominations, because God is gracious and merciful and sees their heart in being earnest for Him, and they are constantly seeking growth and are living fully in the light that they have received. Many are given great light, but don't live up to that light. They are lost.
"He saves none because their sins are comparatively few and unnoticed by their fellow-men; he rejects none because their sins are many and great....
....The promise is that he will give you rest. And this includes pardon and acceptance with God. It includes a deliverance from the condemnation and the tyranny of sin, from fear and remorse, from all spiritual enemies and all vain self-righteous hopes. It is a cordial for an accusing conscience, it is consolation for the oppressed, it is peace for the troubled spirit, it is a balm for every evil that can afflict us in our passage through life, and it is the earnest and pledge of the glorious, pure, eternal rest of heaven."
-- Archibald Alexander (taken from Christ's Gracious Invitation)

Do not for a moment think you need to improve yourself or make your life more acceptable to God before receiving Christ.

Come at once...right now...and come as you are. Salvation isn't about denominations. It's about Christ and Him crucified. Salvation is about knowing the Father and the Son (John 17:3; 1 John 1:3) and what it cost heaven to redeem mankind from slavery. That knowledge is not intellectual, and it doesn't come from man or his denomination. It is relational. Yet we are called to be a part of the body of Christ. We each play a part in actuating that body to share the gospel with the world. That needs organization. Just as Moses heeded his father-in-law's counsel in the wilderness and brought greater organization and efficiency to God's purposes for Israel, so do todays denominations play a role in bringing about such things to the body of Christ...so long as those denominations are founded on Biblical truth, eschewing evil and the traditions of man being taught as doctrine. Such denominations that hold to tradition which overrules the Bible are teaching another gospel. I speak of both Catholic and Protestant here.
It is very easy to become a Christian. God, in His great love for mankind, has made it as easy as He possibly could. In fact, He has done everything necessary on your behalf that you might become a child of God. All you need do is believe. Everything, I say again, everything is by grace through faith. And what's more, God in His mercy, because He fully understands our weaknesses (His Son lived our lives and experienced our weaknesses) He has made it as difficult as He could for the Christian to leave. Again, the Christian walk is simply one of believing. The difficulty arises however when we stop trusting God, and start relying on our own strength, our own churches, our own pastors, even our own family, to accomplish for us what only God can accomplish. The narrow road, the hard way that scripture speaks of, is the battle against self. The battle against self is the hardest battle the human being will ever have to face. But once you decide for God's side, He will take you in His loving care and do for you what it is impossible for you to do for yourself. And that is get you to heaven. Again, all you have to do is believe His promises to you and accept His word as truth.

 

[Naomi25]

Not everyone is able to express themselves as eloquently as others.........The way individuals take offense, when he is clearly having a go at the doctrines and traditions, to me is a red flag..........Why on earth get so upset ? Do you think he is talking about you in particular ? Is it more important for you to be 'right' than to get closer to Jesus ? Then again I do believe Jesus is referred to as a stumbling block to some, and that most certainly seems to be the case.......

Look, I may be misunderstanding the man big time, in which case, I am sorry, it's on me and my faulty understanding. And sure, that's been known to happen plenty.
But from where I sit, this guy is saying that we shouldn't be gathering together because pretty much every place that calls themselves a "church" is, in fact, only a religion of man. He's also saying that he doubts the calling of the Pastors of these churches, without knowing any of them. And he's also claiming to have the answer to it all, so while they are but "mans religion" he can "do no wrong".
You put all those together.....sirens, bells, whistles, red flashing lights go off. This guy, to me, is teaching something extra-biblical. And he's using his words wrapped in words to confuse people about what's he's actually doing.
Again, I could be wrong, but that's what I'm getting from it.

 

[Naomi25]

If you want to go to "church" thats fine but you are the "church" if you must put it that way, how can you go to something that your are. When Christ comes where will you be found in "church" or in Him. And when the world falls apart who will you run to, church or Christ. Being in "church" does not make one a part of His Church", that only happens when you are in Him, and if you where, you would rather Him than mens religions and doctrines, teh truth is in Christ alone you wont find it in "church: or men.

Pure semantics. You are attempting to play with words to try and get your point across. But you can't because your point is faulty.
I am part of the Church. We gather together. We belong to Christ, and are found in him. He purchased us.
Go around and around if you want.

 

[mjrhealth]

I am part of the Church. We gather together. We belong to Christ, and are found in him. He purchased us.
Go around and around if you want.

Being in church does not make you part of His Church, calling yourself christian does no make you part of His church,

A wife should only have one husband, is it semantics.??

Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

and you no why Christ has to invite teh dregs to His wedding

Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Naomi25]

Being in church does not make you part of His Church, calling yourself christian does no make you part of His church,

A wife should only have one husband, is it semantics.??

Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

and you no why Christ has to invite teh dregs to His wedding

Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Do you doubt that I am a part of the Church because I have called it "church", or because I have said so? You think you so easily know the state of my soul? My heart? Who owns me?

I see only two options here. You are foolishly attached or obsessed with the notion of the word "church" and what it really means or doesn't mean. For some weird reason. Or, you find it easy to judge others you have never met, have never had a real conversation with and have no way of knowing the state of their heart.
Both options are not attractive.

 

[mjrhealth]

Do you doubt that I am a part of the Church because I have called it "church", or because I have said so? You think you so easily know the state of my soul? My heart? Who owns me?

Didnt say you where, didndt say you where not, just gave teh requirements, but that also mean you will never able able to say, ":Ididnt know". Sometimes ignorance is bliss..

 

[mjrhealth]

You are living proof of a person who rejects church, but uses Christian theology. We have been through this ad nauseum. Unless Jesus appeared to you and told you everything you know about Him, you learned it from church sources. Isn’t it embarrassing for you to not recognize this fact?

No I didnt, that is a crazy worldy assumption on your behalf based ion what man has determined christianity is, all I learnt form church is it, is everything His church is not.

 

[APAK]

@aspen and @Naomi25 and @mjrhealth

I understand mjrhealth very clearly. mjrhealth is saying you don’t go anywhere, to a physical place to say you go to ‘church.’ You are already part of the body of Christ if you have the spirit of Christ within you. Believers are all united by the spirit of Christ given by God into their hearts. These collectively are the congregation of God’s people from all over the world (the true universal meaning) no matter where they are physically standing, sitting, sleeping inside or outside. It does not matter. They are at or are the ‘church’ already assembled, ALL THE TIME. They are at ‘church’ all the time, with every breath they take.

It is faulty reasoning to think that a person needs to be at a physical place with other people at one time of the day as the definition and condition whereby you can call it going to or at ‘the ‘church.’ This is the unbeliever’s and religious view. I ‘m not a part that thinking and those people that believe it. I’m a believer in Christ and in his body as all believers are as well.

Now, if part of the assembly of Christ or ‘church’ wants to congregate at a physical location to perform or do specific tasks,, every Monday say, then a portion of the ‘church’ goes to that physical location every Monday at a specific time. Why is this not clear? Unless of course that person reading this is not a true believer, and that would explain the confused and defensive writing.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[brakelite]

@aspen and @Naomi25 and @mjrhealth

I understand mjrhealth very clearly. mjrhealth is saying you don’t go anywhere, to a physical place to say you go to ‘church.’ You are already part of the body of Christ if you have the spirit of Christ within you. Believers are all united by the spirit of Christ given by God into their hearts. These collectively are the congregation of God’s people from all over the world (the true universal meaning) no matter where they are physically standing, sitting, sleeping inside or outside. It does not matter. They are at or are the ‘church’ already assembled, ALL THE TIME. They are at ‘church’ all the time, with every breath they take.

It is faulty reasoning to think that a person needs to be at a physical place with other people at one time of the day as the definition and condition whereby you can call it going to or at ‘the ‘church.’ This is the unbeliever’s and religious view. I ‘m not a part that thinking and those people that believe it. I’m a believer in Christ and in his body as all believers are as well.

Now, if part of the assembly of Christ or ‘church’ wants to congregate at a physical location to perform or do specific tasks,, every Monday say, then a portion of the ‘church’ goes to that physical location every Monday at a specific time. Why is this not clear? Unless of course that person reading this is not a true believer, and that would explain the confused and defensive writing.

Bless you,

APAK

I can live with that. Not sure about Aspen, being Catholic suggests there's only one true church, the rest of Christendom , well, not really Christendom. Naomi I think would get it. Nevertheless, I have some sympathy for Naomi's pov cos MJR does come across as bring very anti-institution and I get that too cos there's lots of corrupt institutions out there, some more than others. And likely if you dug deep enough, you'd find something to criticize in all of them. And in every individual who would be in a home church or count themselves independent or non-denominational. We are all human and whether individuals or denomination, God can use us all if we make ourselves available.
Even Babylon had a purpose and their king will be a part of the resurrection of the righteous.

 

[APAK]

@brakelite ..I guess I also should be careful not to be too trigger happy in broad-brushing and painting all institutions as the same.. I do know that some institutions are following Christ...

.I was trying to make a point that @mjrhealth was trying to make without any success ...​

Thanks bro for pointing it out to me. I guess you are knowing my personality a little more..

APAK

 

[Naomi25]

@aspen and @Naomi25 and @mjrhealth

I understand mjrhealth very clearly. mjrhealth is saying you don’t go anywhere, to a physical place to say you go to ‘church.’ You are already part of the body of Christ if you have the spirit of Christ within you. Believers are all united by the spirit of Christ given by God into their hearts. These collectively are the congregation of God’s people from all over the world (the true universal meaning) no matter where they are physically standing, sitting, sleeping inside or outside. It does not matter. They are at or are the ‘church’ already assembled, ALL THE TIME. They are at ‘church’ all the time, with every breath they take.

Yes, I think we can all agree on this. The point I'm trying to make that mjrhealth refuses to see or acknowledge, is that this...state, or...union...with the body of Christ...makes us the "church". The word "church" is just the term the bible uses. We have to have a word to use, or else when speaking of the body of believers who are 'in Christ through the union of the Spirit' we end up having to use a paragraph instead. Words are helpful, but they don't have power. mjrhealth acts like the word "church" automatically means you're part of some evil cult instituted by man in direct rebellion to God.

It is faulty reasoning to think that a person needs to be at a physical place with other people at one time of the day as the definition and condition whereby you can call it going to or at ‘the ‘church.’ This is the unbeliever’s and religious view. I ‘m not a part that thinking and those people that believe it. I’m a believer in Christ and in his body as all believers are as well.

I agree with this also. We don't need to be gathering together to be part of the Church. But God does call us to gather together. To worship him, to pray together and to learn together. We see it in scripture too often to ignore this command of his.

Now, if part of the assembly of Christ or ‘church’ wants to congregate at a physical location to perform or do specific tasks,, every Monday say, then a portion of the ‘church’ goes to that physical location every Monday at a specific time. Why is this not clear? Unless of course that person reading this is not a true believer, and that would explain the confused and defensive writing.

Bless you,

APAK

Agreed! Thank you for your input, it has been helpful!

I can live with that. Not sure about Aspen, being Catholic suggests there's only one true church, the rest of Christendom , well, not really Christendom. Naomi I think would get it. Nevertheless, I have some sympathy for Naomi's pov cos MJR does come across as bring very anti-institution and I get that too cos there's lots of corrupt institutions out there, some more than others. And likely if you dug deep enough, you'd find something to criticize in all of them. And in every individual who would be in a home church or count themselves independent or non-denominational. We are all human and whether individuals or denomination, God can use us all if we make ourselves available.
Even Babylon had a purpose and their king will be a part of the resurrection of the righteous.

I totally agree that there are institutions out there that are not God serving at all. Heck...even within the those gathering together as the "church" (I use that term to help define the gathering, that is all) are those who come for their own purposes. But we must remember that every sinner must hear the call somewhere. Do we wall up our meetings from those who are not yet redeemed to stave off their influence? Sometimes we must, I think. Sometimes there are those who are just evil and are just foxes in the hen house. But we also must remember that Jesus came for the sick, to call the lost. Paul says that they cannot hear the good news without someone preaching it. And that's what most serves do...preach the Word.

 

[aspen]

Mjr has consistently denounced church ever since I started posting here, over 10 years ago. He claims to be a true Christian, almost entirely based on his hatred for institutional religion. The problem is the MJR refuses to acknowledge that all of the doctrines he holds to be true about God are borrowed from institutional religion; from the Bible he reads, right down to the authority he ascribes to it. He is as much a product of institutional religion as any other Christian - he just refuses to attend church.

The other issue is that MJR only agrees with people (which is rarely) until he decides that they do not hate church as much as he does.

His ideas are irrational, and consist of privately interpreted doctrines and scripture without regard for authority.