End Times been and gone?
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This passage gets cited often as a "failure" of sorts, but there are a few keys that easily get missed.
Elsewhere, in Mark 13 (as well as the two similar passages of Matthew 24 & Luke 21) the statement is made that first the gospel must be preached to all nations:
Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations.
Even supposing that this passage were a fake (IE: God is not real and/or the Bible is not the Word of God), I would think the writer(s) would not expect a message to be preached to all the nations at that time. Generations at that time were pretty short. It's setting yourself up for failure. I'm reminded of mediums/fortune-tellers who start with large generalities (E: "Some female you know had a broken bone.") which lead to specific instances (IE: "My aunt! She fell down five years ago and broke her leg!").
Additionally, this verse comes two verses later:
Mark 13:32
But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
So, if we take it at face value that Mark 13:30 means the generation in front of Jesus, well, he just contradicted himself in the same thought. I suppose you could believe that, but if the Bible is an elaborate fake that does a pretty remarkable job of relating to people ~2000 years after its last books were written, then I think its a poor explanation at best, because you're assuming a pretty strong naiveté of both writer and reader.
I'd submit, simply, that we read the passage as an entire unit in context, and then look at the context right around the passage to see if "this generation" is perhaps addressing something else. Let's back up two verses.
Mark 13:28-29
From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
Then, the verse you cited comes. There is no parenthetical thought indicated here. The generation Jesus is speaking about is not the generation seated/standing in his presence at the time, but it's the generation of the fig tree. When a tree is blooming, it's putting forth a generation of figs.
Elsewhere, in Mark 13 (as well as the two similar passages of Matthew 24 & Luke 21) the statement is made that first the gospel must be preached to all nations:
Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations.
Even supposing that this passage were a fake (IE: God is not real and/or the Bible is not the Word of God), I would think the writer(s) would not expect a message to be preached to all the nations at that time. Generations at that time were pretty short. It's setting yourself up for failure. I'm reminded of mediums/fortune-tellers who start with large generalities (E: "Some female you know had a broken bone.") which lead to specific instances (IE: "My aunt! She fell down five years ago and broke her leg!").
Additionally, this verse comes two verses later:
Mark 13:32
But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
So, if we take it at face value that Mark 13:30 means the generation in front of Jesus, well, he just contradicted himself in the same thought. I suppose you could believe that, but if the Bible is an elaborate fake that does a pretty remarkable job of relating to people ~2000 years after its last books were written, then I think its a poor explanation at best, because you're assuming a pretty strong naiveté of both writer and reader.
I'd submit, simply, that we read the passage as an entire unit in context, and then look at the context right around the passage to see if "this generation" is perhaps addressing something else. Let's back up two verses.
Mark 13:28-29
From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
Then, the verse you cited comes. There is no parenthetical thought indicated here. The generation Jesus is speaking about is not the generation seated/standing in his presence at the time, but it's the generation of the fig tree. When a tree is blooming, it's putting forth a generation of figs.
Marta
New Member
- Mar 29, 2011
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Thank you for posting about this verse, glowe99. I've never felt totally at peace with any interpretations I've heard about it until today, after reading HammerStone's reply to your post.
HammerStone, your explanation helped give me the peace of mind I've always wanted on this verse. It really came alive with such clarity for me after reading your last paragraph here. Thank you so much.
HammerStone, your explanation helped give me the peace of mind I've always wanted on this verse. It really came alive with such clarity for me after reading your last paragraph here. Thank you so much.
That Matthew 24:34 verse is most often taken out of Biblical context by those on the doctrines of Historicism and Preterism (from 'preter', meaning 'what is past'). Some Preterists also wrongly believe Christ's second coming happened back in His Apostles days, and deny the coming a literal "thousand years" reign of our Lord Jesus in the future. That sounds like where the author in the thumbnail is coming from.
It's easy to understand just what 'generation' our Lord Jesus was speaking of.
Matt 24:33-36
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(KJV)
Christ was giving 7 signs of the end of this world in that Matt.24 chapter. The very last sign He gave is about His coming and the gathering of His saints. Has that already happened today? Nope! But that event of His return and our gathering is included... in "all these things" that He said.
So the generation He was speaking of involves the generation that sees ALL THESE THINGS, which He gave in that chapter. To seal it, He even mentioned about heaven and earth passing away, and day that only The Father knew, pointing to the time of His future return.
It's obvious then, He was speaking of the very last... generation of this world, the generation that will experience His return. It's that simple.
It's easy to understand just what 'generation' our Lord Jesus was speaking of.
Matt 24:33-36
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(KJV)
Christ was giving 7 signs of the end of this world in that Matt.24 chapter. The very last sign He gave is about His coming and the gathering of His saints. Has that already happened today? Nope! But that event of His return and our gathering is included... in "all these things" that He said.
So the generation He was speaking of involves the generation that sees ALL THESE THINGS, which He gave in that chapter. To seal it, He even mentioned about heaven and earth passing away, and day that only The Father knew, pointing to the time of His future return.
It's obvious then, He was speaking of the very last... generation of this world, the generation that will experience His return. It's that simple.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, HammerStone.
I like your explanation better than that of veteran although you both have a slightly wrong perspective. The real issue as to why the preterists are wrong about verse 30 is that they have a wrong definition of "generation." Our concept of what a "generation" is today is not the same as the concept of what a "generation" is back in Yeshua`s day. When Yeshua` said 'this generation" (Greek: hee genea hautee = "the generation this-one"), the word cannot be given today's definition because that definition does not fit everywhere the word is used in the B'rit Chadashah (the NT).
The Greek word is found 43 times:
Matthew 1:17 (“generations” 4 times); 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34;
Mark 8:12 (twice), 38; 9:19; 13:30;
Luke 1:48 (“all generations”), 50 (twice); 7:31; 9:41; 11:29 (twice), 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:8; 17:25; 21:32;
Acts 2:40; 8:33; 13:36; 14:16 (“times”); 15:21 (“old time”);
Ephesians 3:5 (“in other ages”), 21 (“all ages”);
Philippians 2:15 (“a crooked and perverse nation”);
Colossians 1:26 (“generations”; and
Hebrews 3:10.
It's clear (at least to me) that the word cannot refer to the modern definition of a "generation," namely "1. the entire body of individuals born and living at about the same time; the postwar generation. 2. the term of years, about 30 among human beings, accepted as the average period between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring."
For instance, the "fourteen generations" from David to the captivity in Babylon were SIGNIFICANTLY more than that in Matthew 1:17. Secondly, consider Philippians 2:15:
Phil 2:14-16
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation (Greek: genea), among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
KJV
Are we really to believe that this only applies to one generation in the modern understanding? OR, could its meaning be something closer to its interpretation here as "nation?"
According to Strong's Dictionary of the Greek Language,
NT:1074 genea (ghen-eh-ah'); from (a presumed derivative of) NT:1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):
KJV - age, generation, nation, time.
NT:1085 genos (ghen'-os); from NT:1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):
KJV - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.
NT:1096 ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):
KJV - arise, be assembled, be (-come, -fall, -haveself), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
It refers indirectly to the nation of Isra'el (not just the 10 tribes, veteran) as a people with a similar DISPOSITION to God's Word and His commands. In 1 and 2 Kings and in 2 Chronicles, it is referring to the times that God switched back and forth in His opinion of each king (or queen) sitting on David's throne in Y'hudah! There were actually 21 "generations" from Shlomo (Solomon) to Tsdeqyahu (Zedekiah), but only 14 of them are mentioned by name, and it is every time that there's a change between a king who did right in God's eyes and a king who did evil in God's eyes, or vice versa. (Y'hoash or Joash is not included because - although he started out doing right under the tutoring of the high priest - when the high priest died, he did evil.)
Since the time of the Messiah's first advent and Isra'el's rejection of Him, the Jews have not changed their opinion on the whole - the leadership of the Tribe is still dead set against Him! Thus, THAT GENERATION (GENEA) HAS NEVER CHANGED! It's still the same "evil generation" that was there in the first century A.D! I believe that is why Yeshua` was able to say, "34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled!" That genea has still not changed nor "passed."
I like your explanation better than that of veteran although you both have a slightly wrong perspective. The real issue as to why the preterists are wrong about verse 30 is that they have a wrong definition of "generation." Our concept of what a "generation" is today is not the same as the concept of what a "generation" is back in Yeshua`s day. When Yeshua` said 'this generation" (Greek: hee genea hautee = "the generation this-one"), the word cannot be given today's definition because that definition does not fit everywhere the word is used in the B'rit Chadashah (the NT).
The Greek word is found 43 times:
Matthew 1:17 (“generations” 4 times); 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34;
Mark 8:12 (twice), 38; 9:19; 13:30;
Luke 1:48 (“all generations”), 50 (twice); 7:31; 9:41; 11:29 (twice), 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:8; 17:25; 21:32;
Acts 2:40; 8:33; 13:36; 14:16 (“times”); 15:21 (“old time”);
Ephesians 3:5 (“in other ages”), 21 (“all ages”);
Philippians 2:15 (“a crooked and perverse nation”);
Colossians 1:26 (“generations”; and
Hebrews 3:10.
It's clear (at least to me) that the word cannot refer to the modern definition of a "generation," namely "1. the entire body of individuals born and living at about the same time; the postwar generation. 2. the term of years, about 30 among human beings, accepted as the average period between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring."
For instance, the "fourteen generations" from David to the captivity in Babylon were SIGNIFICANTLY more than that in Matthew 1:17. Secondly, consider Philippians 2:15:
Phil 2:14-16
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation (Greek: genea), among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
KJV
Are we really to believe that this only applies to one generation in the modern understanding? OR, could its meaning be something closer to its interpretation here as "nation?"
According to Strong's Dictionary of the Greek Language,
NT:1074 genea (ghen-eh-ah'); from (a presumed derivative of) NT:1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):
KJV - age, generation, nation, time.
NT:1085 genos (ghen'-os); from NT:1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):
KJV - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.
NT:1096 ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.):
KJV - arise, be assembled, be (-come, -fall, -haveself), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
It refers indirectly to the nation of Isra'el (not just the 10 tribes, veteran) as a people with a similar DISPOSITION to God's Word and His commands. In 1 and 2 Kings and in 2 Chronicles, it is referring to the times that God switched back and forth in His opinion of each king (or queen) sitting on David's throne in Y'hudah! There were actually 21 "generations" from Shlomo (Solomon) to Tsdeqyahu (Zedekiah), but only 14 of them are mentioned by name, and it is every time that there's a change between a king who did right in God's eyes and a king who did evil in God's eyes, or vice versa. (Y'hoash or Joash is not included because - although he started out doing right under the tutoring of the high priest - when the high priest died, he did evil.)
Since the time of the Messiah's first advent and Isra'el's rejection of Him, the Jews have not changed their opinion on the whole - the leadership of the Tribe is still dead set against Him! Thus, THAT GENERATION (GENEA) HAS NEVER CHANGED! It's still the same "evil generation" that was there in the first century A.D! I believe that is why Yeshua` was able to say, "34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled!" That genea has still not changed nor "passed."
You're wrong retroybyter.
The Greek word 'genea' can refer to 1) one's birth; 2) multiples of the same stock; 3) a race; 4) the whole living at the same time, or 5) an age.
In the Matt.24 Scripture, it's about the whole of people living at the same time.
Matt 24:33-36
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(KJV)
The subject of "all these things" is the context that defines... how to interpret the usage of 'genea' in that. And the condition was the generation that 'sees' "all these things".
What "things"? ALL... those signs of the end He gave in that Matt.24 chapter.
And to seal that as being the generation He meant, He further revealed it linked with what events?
Matt.24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
(KJV)
So all one need do is read just a little bit further past the 33-34 verses to know He was speaking of the last generation of this world, the generation that would experience... His second coming back to this earth. That idea of the heavens and earth passing away is an expressiong for the "day of the Lord" events, which is the day of Christ's return (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). That's when God's consuming fire is going to destroy this present time and usher all into Christ's future thousand years reign with His elect.
The Greek word 'genea' can refer to 1) one's birth; 2) multiples of the same stock; 3) a race; 4) the whole living at the same time, or 5) an age.
In the Matt.24 Scripture, it's about the whole of people living at the same time.
Matt 24:33-36
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(KJV)
The subject of "all these things" is the context that defines... how to interpret the usage of 'genea' in that. And the condition was the generation that 'sees' "all these things".
What "things"? ALL... those signs of the end He gave in that Matt.24 chapter.
And to seal that as being the generation He meant, He further revealed it linked with what events?
Matt.24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
(KJV)
So all one need do is read just a little bit further past the 33-34 verses to know He was speaking of the last generation of this world, the generation that would experience... His second coming back to this earth. That idea of the heavens and earth passing away is an expressiong for the "day of the Lord" events, which is the day of Christ's return (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). That's when God's consuming fire is going to destroy this present time and usher all into Christ's future thousand years reign with His elect.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
Okay, let's assume you're right here, and I'm wrong. Would you explain to me, then, why did Mattityahu (Matthew) say that there were 14 generations from David to the carrying away into Bavel (Babylon)? Was he mistaken? Was he lying? What is YOUR explanation - based on your acceptance of a definition for generation - for his claim?
Okay, let's assume you're right here, and I'm wrong. Would you explain to me, then, why did Mattityahu (Matthew) say that there were 14 generations from David to the carrying away into Bavel (Babylon)? Was he mistaken? Was he lying? What is YOUR explanation - based on your acceptance of a definition for generation - for his claim?
Just because the time when children, parents, and grandparents are born is different doesn't detract from each one being of a different generation. Surely you ought be able to figure that out concerning the 14 generations idea in Matt.1.
That's how Jesus is using the idea of generation in Matt.24:34 verse, because He tied to the idea of the generation that specifically sees all those 7 signs He gave there, and those 7 signs there are the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials of Revelation.
But in Matt.23:36 Jesus used the idea of generation differently; put for a lineage all the way back to Zacharias son of Barachias in the OT down to the time of His future return and judgment, even though the Greek word is 'genea'.
It's like I said, the context generation is used in is what determines whether is meant: 1) one's birth; 2) multiples of the same stock; 3) a race; 4) the whole living at the same time, or 5) an age.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, veteran.
Okay, well, I'm not going to pursue this and waste our time any longer. I can see I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me, because to me, it just makes the rest of Matthew 24 and 25 much clearer, especially in light of the other synoptic Gospels, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
But, at least we each have the other's position to ponder.
Okay, well, I'm not going to pursue this and waste our time any longer. I can see I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me, because to me, it just makes the rest of Matthew 24 and 25 much clearer, especially in light of the other synoptic Gospels, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
But, at least we each have the other's position to ponder.
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