EPHESIANS 4:8 CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE

[Doug]

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Does this verse say that Christ, after his resurrection, led the old testament saints into heaven?

The first thing to examine is, what does it mean to lead captivity captive.

Judges 5:12 Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.

This song commemorates Israel being freed, in Judges 4:14, from the captivity of Sisera.

Isaiah 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

In the above verse, when it says "they shall take them captives, whose captives they were", it is saying, Israel shall take captive, those who held them in captivity.

It can therefore be concluded, that to lead captivity captive, is to take into captivity, those who beforehand oppressed.

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalm 68 above says, "thou hast received gifts for men: yea, for the rebellious also": Israel was counted among the rebellious when, in Acts 2:23, they were accused of slaying Jesus, the Lord of glory.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Psalm 68:18 says that Jesus "hast received gifts for men", which can be evidenced in the verse above when the Holy Ghost was shed forth unto Israel (Luke 24:49 Acts 1:4).

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

If it is contended that the old testament saints were taken to heaven after the resurrection of Christ, it is not supported by the fact that David, an old testament saint for sure, has not ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In fact, according to John, no man had yet ascended up to heaven.

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John, in the above verse, sets the time frame of his epistle, as being after the resurrection of Christ, and eliminates the contention to place John 3:13 before the resurrection, which would favour saying that men ascended into heaven after the resurrection.

Ephesians 4:8 can be best understood in light of the following verses:

Colossains 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Christ spoiled principalities in heavenly places, that is the devil and his angels.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

This verse asserts that Christ, through death, destroyed the devil.

The last verse to consider is:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paradise, as I understand it, is Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:19-31). In Luke 23:43, today is significant, in that, it specifies that Christ has yet to ascend into heaven according to John 20:17, and therefore, would not be taking one of the malefactors to heaven.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Captivity captive is referring to victory over Satan.

 

[Enow]

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Does this verse say that Christ, after his resurrection, led the old testament saints into heaven?

If you believe Paradise is Abraham's bosom, then that is where Paradise is now in the third Heaven as Paul witnesses indirectly of the apostle John.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

If it is contended that the old testament saints were taken to heaven after the resurrection of Christ, it is not supported by the fact that David, an old testament saint for sure, has not ascended into heaven.

I believe you have to take everything said in Peter's speech for the application of that verse starting at verse 14 to those verses mentioning David.

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:.....Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

You should consider that when Peter said David is not ascended into the heavens, that Peter is referring to the future resurrected state to ascend since Jesus was the One resurrected and ascended in a celestial resurrected body to Heaven "to prepare a place for us" for when we are to ascend by His hand in our future resurrected state for those saints that abide in Him to be of the firstfruits of the resurrection. Verse 29 sets the precedent for that topic for applying to what Peter meant since Jesus has been resurrected.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In fact, according to John, no man had yet ascended up to heaven.

At the time John was writing this may have been after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, but at the time of the event and the words being spoken was before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. Jesus said this while on earth before His resurrection & His ascension.

Paradise, as I understand it, is Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:19-31). In Luke 23:43, today is significant, in that, it specifies that Christ has yet to ascend into heaven according to John 20:17, and therefore, would not be taking one of the malefactors to heaven.

If you believe Paradise is Abraham's bosom, then that is where Paradise is now in the third Heaven as Paul witnesses indirectly of the apostle John.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So Jesus did take the captivity captive as I apply that to mean He took Paradise with Him along with all the souls of the saints of the O.T. in it, including the thief at the cross so that now, when we die, our spirits are with the Lord awaiting our future resurrected state, whether it be as vessels unto honor in His House to be of the firstfruits of the resurrection or left behind as vessels unto dishonor in being resurrected after the great tribulation..

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[Doug]

If you believe Paradise is Abraham's bosom, then that is where Paradise is now in the third Heaven as Paul witnesses indirectly of the apostle John.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



I believe you have to take everything said in Peter's speech for the application of that verse starting at verse 14 to those verses mentioning David.

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:.....Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

You should consider that when Peter said David is not ascended into the heavens, that Peter is referring to the future resurrected state to ascend since Jesus was the One resurrected and ascended in a celestial resurrected body to Heaven "to prepare a place for us" for when we are to ascend by His hand in our future resurrected state for those saints that abide in Him to be of the firstfruits of the resurrection. Verse 29 sets the precedent for that topic for applying to what Peter meant since Jesus has been resurrected.



At the time John was writing this may have been after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ, but at the time of the event and the words being spoken was before the resurrection and ascension of Jesus Christ. Jesus said this while on earth before His resurrection & His ascension.



If you believe Paradise is Abraham's bosom, then that is where Paradise is now in the third Heaven as Paul witnesses indirectly of the apostle John.

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So Jesus did take the captivity captive as I apply that to mean He took Paradise with Him along with all the souls of the saints of the O.T. in it, including the thief at the cross so that now, when we die, our spirits are with the Lord awaiting our future resurrected state, whether it be as vessels unto honor in His House to be of the firstfruits of the resurrection or left behind as vessels unto dishonor in being resurrected after the great tribulation..

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Paradise can have more than one usage. Look at Revelation 2:7 where the tree of life is in paradise, which is in the new Jerusalem, in the kingdom on earth (Revelation 22:2).

 

[Enow]

Paradise can have more than one usage. Look at Revelation 2:7 where the tree of life is in paradise, which is in the new Jerusalem, in the kingdom on earth (Revelation 22:2).

Understandably, but then you have to assign what Paradise to mean in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4 for in how the apostle John can be there not in a resurrected state? Was it by taking the captivity hence Paradise to Heaven with the souls of the O.T. is how the spirit or body of the apostle John was there to see for the recording of the Book of Revelation?

At any rate, there would be no point for Paradise aka Abraham's bosom to be where it was beneath the earth, right? If we are present with the Lord in our spirits after we die, and He is in Heaven, then so are the souls of the O.T. saints. So Paul's testimony of Paradise could very well be Abraham's bosom which I believe it is, unless you find some truth in scripture for me to believe otherwise?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In fact, according to John, no man had yet ascended up to heaven.

Not saying my translation is correct but it says, no one has gone up to heaven and returned

 

[Enow]

Not saying my translation is correct but it says, no one has gone up to heaven and returned

If you tried to translate the verse in Greek to English, you may read it wrong. So it is best to read it as is in the KJV.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I read it as at the time Jesus has said this; no one has ascended up to Heaven but the Son of Man, Jesus Himself, did come down from Heaven.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If you tried to translate the verse in Greek to English, you may read it wrong. So it is best to read it as is in the KJV.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I read it as at the time Jesus has said this; no one has ascended up to Heaven but the Son of Man, Jesus Himself, did come down from Heaven.

Maybe...but it does say Elijah was taken by a whirlwind into heaven. I have not studied it.

 

[Dcopymope]

Maybe...but it does say Elijah was taken by a whirlwind into heaven. I have not studied it.

Yes, it does say that, on no uncertain terms. Some may call this a contradiction, but as I have currently reasoned through it, the comparison between the two basically ends with them ascending into heaven when considering the entire message of the gospel. The difference is in what them ascending into heaven achieved exactly. I'm sure Elijah is symbolized as one of the olive tree's standing before God as his witness. Jesus on the other hand ascends into heaven for a very important and very special reason, which is to be the high priest as mediator between God and the creation. Neither Moses, Elijah, or Enoch, or anyone else for that matter could ever hope to fulfill that role. I believe this is what Jesus meant when he said no man has ascended into heaven but him that came down from heaven, to die for our sins.

 

[marks]

When Jesus said no one has ascended into heaven, it's an active voice verb, that is, no one has on their own ascended into heaven. But this doesn't mean that no one had been brought into heaven, which would be the passive voice.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Does this verse say that Christ, after his resurrection, led the old testament saints into heaven?

The first thing to examine is, what does it mean to lead captivity captive.

Judges 5:12 Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.

This song commemorates Israel being freed, in Judges 4:14, from the captivity of Sisera.

Isaiah 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.

In the above verse, when it says "they shall take them captives, whose captives they were", it is saying, Israel shall take captive, those who held them in captivity.

It can therefore be concluded, that to lead captivity captive, is to take into captivity, those who beforehand oppressed.

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Psalm 68 above says, "thou hast received gifts for men: yea, for the rebellious also": Israel was counted among the rebellious when, in Acts 2:23, they were accused of slaying Jesus, the Lord of glory.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Psalm 68:18 says that Jesus "hast received gifts for men", which can be evidenced in the verse above when the Holy Ghost was shed forth unto Israel (Luke 24:49 Acts 1:4).

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

If it is contended that the old testament saints were taken to heaven after the resurrection of Christ, it is not supported by the fact that David, an old testament saint for sure, has not ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In fact, according to John, no man had yet ascended up to heaven.

John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John, in the above verse, sets the time frame of his epistle, as being after the resurrection of Christ, and eliminates the contention to place John 3:13 before the resurrection, which would favour saying that men ascended into heaven after the resurrection.

Ephesians 4:8 can be best understood in light of the following verses:

Colossains 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Christ spoiled principalities in heavenly places, that is the devil and his angels.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

This verse asserts that Christ, through death, destroyed the devil.

The last verse to consider is:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paradise, as I understand it, is Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:19-31). In Luke 23:43, today is significant, in that, it specifies that Christ has yet to ascend into heaven according to John 20:17, and therefore, would not be taking one of the malefactors to heaven.

Hi Doug,

I think I understand you that there is another way to understand this expression, captivity captive.

If Jesus emptied Sheol of the righteous and took them into heaven when He ascended into heaven, as some think, it still would have been true when Jesus said it no matter how you look at it. And when you look at the syntax it remains true, any in heaven have been brought there, none have ascended their on their own.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

If it is contended that the old testament saints were taken to heaven after the resurrection of Christ, it is not supported by the fact that David, an old testament saint for sure, has not ascended into heaven.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In fact, according to John, no man had yet ascended up to heaven.

LoL. God bless, Doug, and hope you are well.

Listen, I appreciate anyone studying and thinking for themselves, but you appear to have deliberately evaded some rather obvious answers to these questions. Acts 2:34 is simply communicating that at the time David spoke this prophecy he had not yet ascended, not that he somehow failed to ascend with the Old Testament saints at the resurrection (LoL). And John 3:13 is simply referencing the fact that no one ascended from the Paradise side of Sheol until the time Christ led captivity captive.

If you get this teaching wrong it will taint how you read numerous other passages, but may the Lord reveal it to you in His own good time.

God bless.
Yours,
Hidden

 

[Enow]

Maybe...but it does say Elijah was taken by a whirlwind into heaven. I have not studied it.

Well, do continue your studies relying on Jesus Christ fro wisdom.

In regards to Elijah, heaven can be the upper atmosphere rather than where God dwells and since Jesus said no one had ascended into Heaven yet and that no flesh and blood could inherit the Kingdom of God in ascending in that way in our corruptible fallen state we are in as Paul testified, then neither Elijah nor Enoch were taken to where God lives in Heaven; that third Heaven. That is why He led me to believe it was just the upper atmosphere.

I suspect that whereas Philip was transported at the end of Acts 8th chapter to another place by the Spirit physically, I would have to suspect that the 2 witnesses at Jerusalem for the duration of the great tribulation is Enoch and Elijah, being transported through time to be dropped off by God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well, do continue your studies relying on Jesus Christ fro wisdom.

In regards to Elijah, heaven can be the upper atmosphere rather than where God dwells and since Jesus said no one had ascended into Heaven yet and that no flesh and blood could inherit the Kingdom of God in ascending in that way in our corruptible fallen state we are in as Paul testified, then neither Elijah nor Enoch were taken to where God lives in Heaven; that third Heaven. That is why He led me to believe it was just the upper atmosphere.

I suspect that whereas Philip was transported at the end of Acts 8th chapter to another place by the Spirit physically, I would have to suspect that the 2 witnesses at Jerusalem for the duration of the great tribulation is Enoch and Elijah, being transported through time to be dropped off by God.

How do we know that flesh and blood went to heaven, regarding elijah?

I also thought of the verse in Rev. Where the souls of the martyred cry out from beneath the altar.

 

[Enow]

How do we know that flesh and blood went to heaven, regarding elijah?

Again, to repeat the clarification, Elijah was taken to the upper atmosphere rather than Heaven where God lives since other scripture testify that no man has ascended to Heaven yet as Jesus said and that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God as Paul had written, but this is the verse.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

I also thought of the verse in Rev. Where the souls of the martyred cry out from beneath the altar.

Emphasis on souls and not the physical bodies of those saints.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Again, to repeat the clarification, Elijah was taken to the upper atmosphere rather than Heaven where God lives since other scripture testify that no man has ascended to Heaven yet as Jesus said and that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God as Paul had written, but this is the verse.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.



Emphasis on souls and not the physical bodies of those saints.

My point is that how do we know Elijahs physical body and flesh and blood and bones and warts entered heaven? Elisha did not see him enter heaven. He only saw him disappear in a whirlwind. So if any emphasis is put on elijahs flesh and blood body entering heaven, it is in the minds of men, not in the words...

 

[Enow]

My point is that how do we know Elijahs physical body and flesh and blood and bones and warts entered heaven? Elisha did not see him enter heaven. He only saw him disappear in a whirlwind. So if any emphasis is put on elijahs flesh and blood body entering heaven, it is in the minds of men, not in the words...

Well, if Elisha saw a whirlwind "take" Elijah physically "into" the heaven, I would tend to believe it was the upper atmosphere and not God's place.

 

[Base12]

Does this verse say that Christ, after his resurrection, led the old testament saints into heaven?

No.

Abraham's Bosom still exists and that's where the saved go after death.

Context is important in this case...

Ephesians 4:1
"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called"

Paul was teaching that *we*, as in the entire Human Race, are the 'captives'.

Thus, this verse...

Ephesians 4:8
"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men"

...is speaking of Salvation to a select group of people who are in essence 'prisoners' of the Earth.

More specifically...

Since Christians aren't taught that the 'Lowest Parts of the Earth' is actually the Womb, they are unable to comprehend what is happening in these passages.

The Lowest Parts of the Earth is the Womb...

In other words, Hell is a parable for the Womb where we all came from.

Therefore, Jesus descended into the Wombs of the pregnant women that were around in those days and gave gifts to them.

This is what Jesus did while he was in each Mother's Womb...

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations"

The gifts are given before birth...

Ephesians 4:11
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers"

Jesus gave those gifts to the unborn children in the 'Lower Parts of the Earth', not to the adults!

Just read the entire chapter to see all of the references to children developing in the Uterus, such as this...

Ephesians 4:14
"That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive"

and this...

Ephesians 4:15
"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ"

and this...

Ephesians 4:16
"From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love"

See that?

It's about a Fetus developing into Children and then Adults in Christ.

 

[Base12]

How do we know that flesh and blood went to heaven, regarding elijah?

I would assume Elijah was Translated like Enoch was...

Hebrews 11:5
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God"

This would be similar to the Rapture I suppose.

I also thought of the verse in Rev. Where the souls of the martyred cry out from beneath the altar.

I believe they are in Abraham's Bosom still and are anxious to awaken into their Glorified Bodies.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well, if Elisha saw a whirlwind "take" Elijah physically "into" the heaven, I would tend to believe it was the upper atmosphere and not God's place.

Well...the disciples watched as Jesus went, until they couldn't see Him anymore. They saw Him go farther and farther up and away until they couldn't see Him anymore. Same thing as seeing a whirlwind take someone farther and farther until you couldn't see them any more. Or like when you let go of a helium filled balloon and watch until you can't see it any more...