Error of Once Saved

[robert derrick]

LOL! It is what it is. Glory to God.


With all due respect, Robert, your critiques are worth nothing to me, frankly.


I've never said otherwise.


Certainly, God's heart is that all would come to knowledge of the truth. But God gets what he purposes to get. He saves who He purposes to save. He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion. Those whom He foreknows ~ foreloves ~ which is not everyone, He also predestines to be conformed to the image of His Son, and those whom He predestines He also calls, and those whom He calls He also justifies, and those whom He justifies He also glorifies.


Right. Agreed. For those whom God foreloves, predestines, calls, and justifies, they do not "go back."


LOL! Thanks be to God, I am. Again, your talking down to me means absolutely nothing in the face of who I am in Christ.

Grace and peace to you. Especially grace, since you seem to have none.

Right. Agreed. For those whom God foreloves, predestines, calls, and justifies, they do not "go back."

So then, our agreement is that those who go on sinning and trespassing are not going to finish the race in glory.

You say there are none that turn back, whom God foreknew, and I say there are those that turn back, whom God foreknew, but did not conform unto the end.

The agreement part is the only thing that matters today: the past is past, and tomorrow will take care of itself.

Today is the day to live righteously and holily and blamelessly in Christ: being conformed to His image.

If believing you are one of them predestined to finish well helps you to do so, then by all means do so.

Finishing well in glory is all that matters in the end, and God can correct any lack of knowledge on our part at that time:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

[ScottA]

Here is a point by point list of things I believe you are teaching. You can address them one at a time in any order, or go through with an initial agree or disagree. If you disagree, then correct my understanding of it. I believe at the end, I will be able to teach it like you. And perhaps add to it:
The Natural Man vs the Spiritual Man
1. The natural man, who becomes the old man of sin at salvation, is the natural body born with sin nature: the physical brain and heart are the carnal mind and heart of lust within flesh of sin: sinful flesh.

Man being made in the image of God, is but an image; and that image is made manifest with a choice...which has been referred to as a "sin nature." However, since Adam was actually created with the choice of choosing to do the commandment of God or not, regarding the tree of life, it is not that he was the father of that so called sin nature--but rather that God created him that way--with a choice to choose live or death: God created Adam with the ability to choose sin or not.

Then after God destroyed all that had succumb to sin by the waters of a great flood and chose a people to be His people, He again set before them that same choice, saying:

I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. Deuteronomy 30:19
​

Which has been repeated more than once by the choice of the law which is self-righteousness, or by the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ. Which is God's proof that man cannot do righteously without Him, not by his own actions. And even now we see many attempting to hold out until the end by their self-righteous acts by the flesh, rather than by the Spirit.

The same choice all the way through history--because we were created that way.

 

[ScottA]

Here is a point by point list of things I believe you are teaching. You can address them one at a time in any order, or go through with an initial agree or disagree. If you disagree, then correct my understanding of it. I believe at the end, I will be able to teach it like you. And perhaps add to it:

2. The saved soul is preserved blameless high above in heavenly places in Christ.

First, I would caution the use of the word "soul" in many cases...for it can be a matter of confusion, as if it were a third part, which it is not.

In any case, one who is "saved" is more than "preserved blameless high above in heavenly places in Christ"--although it is fine to consider it so for a time. But rather, salvation is of God and timeless--meaning that the idea of being "preserved" is a put-off...even in the scriptures, until such a time when one can bear all truth. Which is, that salvation occurred before the foundation of the world, was made manifest in Christ, comes to "each one in his own order", in the twinkling of an eye--which is to say: without time, but with and in God.

And, yes, there is no coming back from what has already occurred before the foundation of the world--no possibility of loosing salvation. Which brings up another point of confusion, which is the idea or instruction of "holding out unto the end." The answer of which is the same as salvation: Christ is the Beginning and the End. In other words, "each one in his own order" is instructed to continue from the first knowledge of the salvation of Christ, until they come together with the Eternal, thereby putting and End to sin, and a Beginning to righteousness. Time then becomes the continuing stumbling block of those who have not fully understood the timeless and eternal nature of God. Perhaps more later.

 

[ScottA]

Here is a point by point list of things I believe you are teaching. You can address them one at a time in any order, or go through with an initial agree or disagree. If you disagree, then correct my understanding of it. I believe at the end, I will be able to teach it like you. And perhaps add to it.
3. The spirit of the new man in the body wrestles with the old man of the body.
4. The constant state of the born again Christian is of wretched double minded war with the flesh: the mind of the spirit of the new man wars with the carnal mind and lust of the old man: the physical body.
5. With the mind of the new man, we serve the Lord in the spirit, but with the flesh of the old man, we serve serve the devil with sins of the flesh. (Rom 7) We walk after the Spirit with the mind of the new man, but after the flesh with the old flesh of sin.
6. The preserved soul in Christ is not judged dead, nor condemned, for the sins of the flesh, but the flesh is dead because of sins. (Rom 8)
7. The soul waits patiently for the resurrected body, while the spirit strives with the old sinful body unto the end of this life.
8. Only with the first resurrection of the blessed, is the glorified saint able and free to cease from all sinning and to do righteousness at all times: having no more sin.
9. The hope of the resurrection from the dead is twofold: the resurrection of the body from mortal to immortal, and the perfection of the soul and spirit from all sinning: the sin nature is once for all done away inwardly and outwardly.

That is perhaps how it would appear from the writings of Paul, but that is not exactly what he was addressing. Paul was simply speaking with compassion and relaying their struggles and how to deal with them as if they were his own, or referring to such a time when they were his own...just as he also did saying, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things." 1 Corinthians 13:11

But this rather is a statement revealing the times as being on the cusp of salvation having come to those who were even born before it had come. In this way, Paul was walking them out of the darkness and into the light, using himself as one to follow, even saying "imitate me." In other words, the words were especially for that generation, but also for coming generations who would also hear the good news of Christ, and would perhaps need to wrestle with it in their own lives, as was and is common.

Again, this is an issue of misunderstanding the timing. The most common timing of salvation did and does take time--which is that time between hearing and believing to a point of laying down your life, that Christ might raise it up again. Even now, in spite of an equal number of passages of scripture which say that salvation is instantaneous ("old things have passes away, all thing have become new" (past tense)), some still do not believe it is even possible until their flesh passes away of nature causes...as if salvation were by nature or by the flesh. It's not, but rather is by the spirit of God which began to be poured out upon all flesh beginning at Pentecost, "each one in his own order."

So, no, the old man (of flesh) and the new man (of Spirit) do not wrestle. But some, by unbelief--not believing that salvation comes only to those who are dead to the flesh, continue to struggle. They struggle not with the new man, for they have refused Him--putting Him off, left to struggle with the old man. Thus, the promise remains only a promise, by their own unbelief.

But that is only part of what is true. In the case of the new man, those who do lay down their life giving it over to Christ, have died to self that Christ may live in them--for them "to live is Christ", just as Paul also said. Which is to say, that they have been resurrected to new life in Christ--left alive (in spirit) but remaining in the world to finish the work of Christ during these times of the gentiles. These are those of which Paul wrote: "those who are alive and remain." Which is not to say, those who are alive merely in the flesh, or have not received Christ in full, but remain in there own personal struggle with the flesh.

Which newness of life looks like a lie to those who have rejected the truth; but to those who fully believe, it is just as it was with Christ who took sin upon himself and walked among the dead (the first resurrection). Which is also that time of reigning with Christ as Priests and Kings until the times are fulfilled.

Which things are not complete without the understanding that the resurrection of Christ in the flesh was a different event from that of His ascension. This is the confirmation and the foreshadowing of what I have just told you. "First the natural, and afterward the spiritual." Two different events.

To those who fully believe and receive it, the first resurrection is to walk in this world in the carcass of their demise, which is service to God. However, as this is of God and not of the world, they do not wait until their flesh passes away to ascend, but have already ascended, just as they have already been crucified with Christ. Here, the forty days of Christ between His crucifixion and His ascension is a foreshadowing of two things which are not counted in time by God, but occur during the same time according to the times of this world: the times of the gentiles, and the reign of Christ for the gathering of the saints. Which is also that time of Satan being bound, and also loosed for a short time, until the times are fulfilled...those times foreshadowed by Noah and the forty days and nights of rain upon the earth, and by Jonah and Nineveh.

 

[robert derrick]

Man being made in the image of God, is but an image; and that image is made manifest with a choice...which has been referred to as a "sin nature." However, since Adam was actually created with the choice of choosing to do the commandment of God or not, regarding the tree of life, it is not that he was the father of that so called sin nature--but rather that God created him that way--with a choice to choose live or death: God created Adam with the ability to choose sin or not.

Then after God destroyed all that had succumb to sin by the waters of a great flood and chose a people to be His people, He again set before them that same choice, saying:

I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. Deuteronomy 30:19
​

Which has been repeated more than once by the choice of the law which is self-righteousness, or by the righteousness of God through Jesus Christ. Which is God's proof that man cannot do righteously without Him, not by his own actions. And even now we see many attempting to hold out until the end by their self-righteous acts by the flesh, rather than by the Spirit.

The same choice all the way through history--because we were created that way.

1. Being made in the image of God is that of being made with power to choose to do good or evil, and that is the sin nature: to choose good or evil? It's not the nature of sin, which is unrighteousness with God, but is the divine nature with power to choose to sin against God?

The sin nature does not compel to sin, and so is not the cause for sinning, but is only the opportunity provided to sin? It is the nature of having choice of will?

If so, why is it not called the righteous nature? Or the righteous vs sin nature?

2. Choosing the law to do is self-righteousness? God added the law as an additional choice: not by original sin nature to choose good or evil naturally, but now as by law? Doing the law with the flesh is works of the law that are self-righteous?

Is that only the law written on paper, but not the law of the Spirit written within the heart, which we do by faith?

If we choose to do an outward law written on paper, it is self righteousness, but if we only choose to do by faith the law written inwardly, it is righteousness of God?

 

[robert derrick]

First, I would caution the use of the word "soul" in many cases...for it can be a matter of confusion, as if it were a third part, which it is not.

In any case, one who is "saved" is more than "preserved blameless high above in heavenly places in Christ"--although it is fine to consider it so for a time. But rather, salvation is of God and timeless--meaning that the idea of being "preserved" is a put-off...even in the scriptures, until such a time when one can bear all truth. Which is, that salvation occurred before the foundation of the world, was made manifest in Christ, comes to "each one in his own order", in the twinkling of an eye--which is to say: without time, but with and in God.

And, yes, there is no coming back from what has already occurred before the foundation of the world--no possibility of loosing salvation. Which brings up another point of confusion, which is the idea or instruction of "holding out unto the end." The answer of which is the same as salvation: Christ is the Beginning and the End. In other words, "each one in his own order" is instructed to continue from the first knowledge of the salvation of Christ, until they come together with the Eternal, thereby putting and End to sin, and a Beginning to righteousness. Time then becomes the continuing stumbling block of those who have not fully understood the timeless and eternal nature of God. Perhaps more later.

until they come together with the Eternal, thereby putting and End to sin, and a Beginning to righteousness.

So in time on earth, doing righteousness at all times and sinning no more does not occur until the timelessness of the first resurrection of the just?

I would like to start seeing yes/no answers with any necessary correction of what I say by your own words.

At this point, I only want to know exactly what you believe as much as possible. Less expounding for now please.

Once I am able to state things to your satisfaction, then we can expound to agree or disagree.

 

[robert derrick]

That is perhaps how it would appear from the writings of Paul, but that is not exactly what he was addressing. Paul was simply speaking with compassion and relaying their struggles and how to deal with them as if they were his own, or referring to such a time when they were his own...just as he also did saying, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things." 1 Corinthians 13:11

But this rather is a statement revealing the times as being on the cusp of salvation having come to those who were even born before it had come. In this way, Paul was walking them out of the darkness and into the light, using himself as one to follow, even saying "imitate me." In other words, the words were especially for that generation, but also for coming generations who would also hear the good news of Christ, and would perhaps need to wrestle with it in their own lives, as was and is common.

Again, this is an issue of misunderstanding the timing. The most common timing of salvation did and does take time--which is that time between hearing and believing to a point of laying down your life, that Christ might raise it up again. Even now, in spite of an equal number of passages of scripture which say that salvation is instantaneous ("old things have passes away, all thing have become new" (past tense)), some still do not believe it is even possible until their flesh passes away of nature causes...as if salvation were by nature or by the flesh. It's not, but rather is by the spirit of God which began to be poured out upon all flesh beginning at Pentecost, "each one in his own order."

So, no, the old man (of flesh) and the new man (of Spirit) do not wrestle. But some, by unbelief--not believing that salvation comes only to those who are dead to the flesh, continue to struggle. They struggle not with the new man, for they have refused Him--putting Him off, left to struggle with the old man. Thus, the promise remains only a promise, by their own unbelief.

But that is only part of what is true. In the case of the new man, those who do lay down their life giving it over to Christ, have died to self that Christ may live in them--for them "to live is Christ", just as Paul also said. Which is to say, that they have been resurrected to new life in Christ--left alive (in spirit) but remaining in the world to finish the work of Christ during these times of the gentiles. These are those of which Paul wrote: "those who are alive and remain." Which is not to say, those who are alive merely in the flesh, or have not received Christ in full, but remain in there own personal struggle with the flesh.

Which newness of life looks like a lie to those who have rejected the truth; but to those who fully believe, it is just as it was with Christ who took sin upon himself and walked among the dead (the first resurrection). Which is also that time of reigning with Christ as Priests and Kings until the times are fulfilled.

Which things are not complete without the understanding that the resurrection of Christ in the flesh was a different event from that of His ascension. This is the confirmation and the foreshadowing of what I have just told you. "First the natural, and afterward the spiritual." Two different events.

To those who fully believe and receive it, the first resurrection is to walk in this world in the carcass of their demise, which is service to God. However, as this is of God and not of the world, they do not wait until their flesh passes away to ascend, but have already ascended, just as they have already been crucified with Christ. Here, the forty days of Christ between His crucifixion and His ascension is a foreshadowing of two things which are not counted in time by God, but occur during the same time according to the times of this world: the times of the gentiles, and the reign of Christ for the gathering of the saints. Which is also that time of Satan being bound, and also loosed for a short time, until the times are fulfilled...those times foreshadowed by Noah and the forty days and nights of rain upon the earth, and by Jonah and Nineveh.

But this rather is a statement revealing the times as being on the cusp of salvation having come to those who were even born before it had come.

This is only the cusp, but not yet born again?

So wretched double mindedness is only for them foreknown and called but not yet recieved Him with power to become, or is it only for babes in Christ who must grow and go to perfection: walking after the Spirit only in deed and in truth, and not only desiring it in mind, while watching the flesh do otherwise?

and would perhaps need to wrestle with it in their own lives, as was and is common.

Meaning we can always be in danger of wretched double mindedness, so long as we are in the flesh on earth? It is not a state we are always in, but only a state to guard our hearts against, so as to not be double hearted: we do so by spiritual warfare against the unrighteous thoughts of the enemy, as well as keeping our bodies under subjection: inward and outward obedience to Christ. (2 Cor 10:4)(1 Cor 9:27)

Again, this is an issue of misunderstanding the timing. The most common timing of salvation did and does take time--which is that time between hearing and believing to a point of laying down your life, that Christ might raise it up again.

I.e. the time between believing and obeying? Which can be frustrated by double heartedness? We must always be taking up the cross and laying down our life: I die daily? There ought not be temporal battle within the heart and mind, but there is if we are not being steadfast, but rather are taking thought to do otherwise from the devil at the door?

salvation is instantaneous ("old things have passes away, all thing have become new" (past tense)), some still do not believe it is even possible until their flesh passes away of nature causes...as if salvation were by nature or by the flesh.

Them that do not have the instant conversion of faith to receive Christ with power into the heart: resurrection power within, but instead go on to seek salvation by good works of the flesh? Not washed within the platter first, to be clean outwardly now, not later?

So, no, the old man (of flesh) and the new man (of Spirit) do not wrestle.

So, the natural man is born with sin in the flesh, by physical seed of man, and becomes the old mans of sin, if we put off the flesh with it's deeds and put on the new man in Christ? The old man of sin is the physical mortal body?

But some, by unbelief--not believing that salvation comes only to those who are dead to the flesh, continue to struggle. They struggle not with the new man, for they have refused Him--putting Him off, left to struggle with the old man. Thus, the promise remains only a promise, by their own unbelief.

Dead to the flesh is mortifying the flesh and lust thereof: crucified with Christ? Hearers only continue to struggle against knowledge of the gospel, putting off the new man, yet wrestling with the old. They are not yet born again and save according to the promise of the gospel and cross of Lamb?

So long as they remain double hearted, they have yet to receive Him with power within the heart to destroy the law of sin in the mind and the flesh: the works of the devil inwardly and outwardly?

Their unbelief is not so much that Jesus is the Christ, but rather their unbelief is based upon having eyes to see only their own sinful condition, rather than believing in His power to change us from within? Having eyes, they see but perceive not? (Mark 8:18)

 

[robert derrick]

But that is only part of what is true. In the case of the new man, those who do lay down their life giving it over to Christ, have died to self that Christ may live in them--for them "to live is Christ", just as Paul also said. Which is to say, that they have been resurrected to new life in Christ--left alive (in spirit) but remaining in the world to finish the work of Christ during these times of the gentiles. These are those of which Paul wrote: "those who are alive and remain." Which is not to say, those who are alive merely in the flesh, or have not received Christ in full, but remain in there own personal struggle with the flesh.

But that is only part of what is true. In the case of the new man, those who do lay down their life giving it over to Christ, have died to self that Christ may live in them--for them "to live is Christ", just as Paul also said.

When we receive Him within the heart to believe and obey Him in all things: the honest and good heart of commitment to do His will and not to sin. It is not so much a vow to start doing good and not do evil with the flesh, such as a new year's commitment, but rather is the true inward conversion being born again in a moment: to be saved.

That is when we take up our cross and lose our own life and will within first, that we may find it in Him: to live to Christ and through Christ is all there is to me, nothing else in this life can be allowed get in the way, whether flesh, or family, or power, or principality or spirit... (1 John 4:9)

And this is the salvation comes with with justification, that is once for all time, which you call the first resurrection: Which is to say, that they have been resurrected to new life in Christ--

left alive (in spirit) but remaining in the world to finish the work of Christ during these times of the gentiles. These are those of which Paul wrote: "those who are alive and remain."

We are not taken away immediately upon salvation, but are left in the flesh alive in the Spirit on earth?

To finish the work of Christ in us and through us? Which is our perfecting and ministry? We yet in the flesh are alive in Christ and remaining on earth.

Which is not to say, those who are alive merely in the flesh, or have not received Christ in full, but remain in there own personal struggle with the flesh.

Explain. Alive merely in the flesh as the unsaved natural man? Not recieved Christ in full as hearers only? But the saved and redeemed in the flesh still warring with the flesh, as the double minded?

Which newness of life looks like a lie to those who have rejected the truth;

Explain. How does living with newness of life from within, manifest in newness of life bodily, look like a lie? Since there is no hypocrisy, between what we believe and confess and do. What truth is rejected and by who? The truth of Christ by the unbeliever?

but to those who fully believe, it is just as it was with Christ who took sin upon himself and walked among the dead (the first resurrection). Which is also that time of reigning with Christ as Priests and Kings until the times are fulfilled.

Explain. Fully believe? As in believe all things written and promised? Believing and doing all things written and promised?

Jesus fully believed, like Abraham, that God was able to raise Him from the dead, as with Isaac?

What dead did He walk among in resurrected body? The disciples not yet converted?

The Millennium being fulfilled now in the body of the church?

Which things are not complete without the understanding that the resurrection of Christ in the flesh was a different event from that of His ascension. This is the confirmation and the foreshadowing of what I have just told you. "First the natural, and afterward the spiritual." Two different events.

Yes, the resurrection of His body was first, and then His ascension in sight of His disciples in a cloud.

First the body is sown natural, and then sown in the Spirit with the resurrection? First we are made alive in Christ while yet in the natural flesh, and then we shall be made perfect int he resurrection of the spiritual body? During the days of our flesh is the millennial reigning with Christ overcoming as flesh as He, as priests and kings to God?

To those who fully believe and receive it, the first resurrection is to walk in this world in the carcass of their demise, which is service to God.

Ok, that answers the above. And you pointing to the carcass to which the eagles gather: the old man of the flesh is the dead flesh and carcass we have died to?

However, as this is of God and not of the world, they do not wait until their flesh passes away to ascend, but have already ascended, just as they have already been crucified with Christ.

Is this the ascension of the soul to sit in heavenly places? When the soul is crucified to sin, even as the body of Christ was crucified for sin?

Here, the forty days of Christ between His crucifixion and His ascension is a foreshadowing of two things which are not counted in time by God, but occur during the same time according to the times of this world: the times of the gentiles, and the reign of Christ for the gathering of the saints. Which is also that time of Satan being bound, and also loosed for a short time, until the times are fulfilled...those times foreshadowed by Noah and the forty days and nights of rain upon the earth, and by Jonah and Nineveh.

This being the millennial reign of Christ's body, of His flesh and of His bones, on earth now, in them who's souls sit in heavenly places, while the spiritus of their new man still dwells in earthen vessels?

Satan is bound and cast out of heaven in us who are crucified and risen with Christ by the Spirit: Satan no more has authority over our hearts and minds by temptation of lust: we do not receive nor take thought for his unrighteousness. He is cast down and out with all his vain imaginations and thought for sin. (Eph 6)(Is 55:7) Lust is no more in our hearts to be enticed by temptations of the world. (James 1)

Is he now then persecuting us by the flesh with wrath for our rejection of his rule, and being translated from the kingdom of his darkness to that of the Son? is the flood spued from his mouth all the deceptions, lies, temptations, persecutions, and lying wonders that would deceive even the elect from the faith and steadfastness in Christ?

So far, I am with you, and have no serious arguments, which I will reserve for later. I believe I will then ask very specific questions for yes and no answers at that time.

 

[ScottA]

1. Being made in the image of God is that of being made with power to choose to do good or evil, and that is the sin nature: to choose good or evil? It's not the nature of sin, which is unrighteousness with God, but is the divine nature with power to choose to sin against God?

The sin nature does not compel to sin, and so is not the cause for sinning, but is only the opportunity provided to sin? It is the nature of having choice of will?

If so, why is it not called the righteous nature? Or the righteous vs sin nature?

It is fine to call the sin nature a sin nature when one chooses sin, or in the case that all have fallen short. But I would call it a God Nature...just as Satan recognized it, not that I am standing with him--I'm not. But just as the demons knew who Christ was, Satan also knew what was in our grasp...even if he worked it to his advantage for a time. But I think your have the idea.

So then, the God Nature, is the potential to do and know good and evil...much as Satan defined it. But it is the will of God that none be lost but that all should come to repentance, and thereby fulfill His will and that all might share in His glory.

2. Choosing the law to do is self-righteousness? God added the law as an additional choice: not by original sin nature to choose good or evil naturally, but now as by law? Doing the law with the flesh is works of the law that are self-righteous?

Is that only the law written on paper, but not the law of the Spirit written within the heart, which we do by faith?

If we choose to do an outward law written on paper, it is self righteousness, but if we only choose to do by faith the law written inwardly, it is righteousness of God?

As it is written, the law was added until the seed [He] should come to whom the promise of salvation was made, which is Christ.

It is also written that the law was to condemn sin. But also to show that it could not be fulfilled without God. That is to say, not by self-righteousness which none could attain except Christ, but by the righteousness that only God could provide.

The law written upon our hearts is what comes with salvation. What was on tablets proved incapable of salvation.

So then, Jesus did not sin, but it was His laying down His life that attained salvation. Which was only possible by being born from above (of the spirit of God).

 

[ScottA]

But this rather is a statement revealing the times as being on the cusp of salvation having come to those who were even born before it had come.

But this rather is a statement revealing the times as being on the cusp of salvation having come to those who were even born before it had come.

This is only the cusp, but not yet born again?

So wretched double mindedness is only for them foreknown and called but not yet recieved Him with power to become, or is it only for babes in Christ who must grow and go to perfection: walking after the Spirit only in deed and in truth, and not only desiring it in mind, while watching the flesh do otherwise?

No, not the cusp of those of this time, but the cusp regarding those of that time 2,000 years ago.

The point of recognizing the times that they lived in, is to understand the importance of what Paul instructed about "rightly dividing the word of truth." The point being, that it does not all apply to these times as some quote it and believe. The result of which is to apply what was for the dead to those who are alive...that being what assuming what only pertained to those who were not saved, also pertains to those who are.

It is important to understand that the "divide" that Paul was referring to, is that same divide that God has made completely separate, and that Christ handles completely separate, literally telling the gentiles, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”, referring to those whom He would come for later as "the little dogs." Such a great divide not to be mixed by God and Christ, should then not also be mixed by us who are of that "other fold that Christ must also bring", which are not of the house of Israel, but of the gentiles (the "dogs" outside the camp).

Again, the right cure for the wrong patient, according to God--is poison.

 

[ScottA]

ScottA: left alive (in spirit) but remaining in the world to finish the work of Christ during these times of the gentiles. These are those of which Paul wrote: "those who are alive and remain."

We are not taken away immediately upon salvation, but are left in the flesh alive in the Spirit on earth?

To finish the work of Christ in us and through us? Which is our perfecting and ministry? We yet in the flesh are alive in Christ and remaining on earth.

No exactly. None of the time that Christ lives in us is for us. His work in us is finished, which is to say we are saved already, made new, perfect...but not that old man that now walks under the power of God in Christ--that is Christ, who continues to the end of times for the delivering of the gospel to the ends of the earth and every generation.

: Which is not to say, those who are alive merely in the flesh, or have not received Christ in full, but remain in there own personal struggle with the flesh.

Explain. Alive merely in the flesh as the unsaved natural man? Not recieved Christ in full as hearers only? But the saved and redeemed in the flesh still warring with the flesh, as the double minded?

That was a continuation of the above statement, meaning that Christ does not give life to our mortal bodies that our mortal bodies can continue the salvation process or to workout our own salvation. No, but when He comes into us and it is no longer we who lives, but Him who lives in us...the work is done in us, and He moves on to those who have yet to come to hear and come to Him--even those who have heard, but like doubting Thomas, have not seen and therefore do not fully believe. These even mister to others, but only knowing part, only preach in part; and having put off the time of fully believing, put off the time of seeing Him also.

ScottA: Which newness of life looks like a lie to those who have rejected the truth;

Explain. How does living with newness of life from within, manifest in newness of life bodily, look like a lie? Since there is no hypocrisy, between what we believe and confess and do. What truth is rejected and by who? The truth of Christ by the unbeliever?

It looks like a lie, because those looking on do not see Jesus who now lives, but they see us who continue to pass away, even continuing to sin as it were (past tense)--this is the error of not knowing or acknowledging that all things have been made new and it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us--all of which is according to the scriptures, but not believed by many. Such is unbelief.

 

[ScottA]

ScottA: but to those who fully believe, it is just as it was with Christ who took sin upon himself and walked among the dead (the first resurrection). Which is also that time of reigning with Christ as Priests and Kings until the times are fulfilled.

Explain. Fully believe? As in believe all things written and promised? Believing and doing all things written and promised?

Jesus fully believed, like Abraham, that God was able to raise Him from the dead, as with Isaac?

What dead did He walk among in resurrected body? The disciples not yet converted?

The Millennium being fulfilled now in the body of the church?

As in believing all as it was written, rather than only in part. When the scriptures say "was", "were", "has been"...only some fully believe as if these are past, just as it is written. Only these are able and fully empowered "to live is Christ."

The foreshadowing of Jesus walking among the dead, what Him walking 40 days between His resurrection and His ascension. It was only after this, only after Jesus ascended to the Father that, in the fullness of time, came Pentecost, which is salvation by new birth from above. Before which none but Jesus, the firstfruits, had been born [again] of the Spirit.

The millennium, referred to as "a thousand years" is rather "until the times are fulfilled" or "in the fullness of time." Which are the times of the gentiles, in which only some who are Christ's--which is the church, have prepared their lamps with the oil of the Spirit. Those who have not will not see Him in the world as the apostles also did, but not until they pass away in the flesh...as this is what they believe.

 

[JunChosen]

The millennium, referred to as "a thousand years" is rather "until the times are fulfilled" or "in the fullness of time." Which are the times of the gentiles, in which only some who are Christ's--which is the church, have prepared their lamps with the oil of the Spirit.

I concur. Another way of putting it, the millennium means, "Whatever timetable God has in view."
By the way, this phrase can be utilized when reading Revelation 20:1-6.

To God Be The Glory

 

[ScottA]

ScottA: Which things are not complete without the understanding that the resurrection of Christ in the flesh was a different event from that of His ascension. This is the confirmation and the foreshadowing of what I have just told you. "First the natural, and afterward the spiritual." Two different events.

Yes, the resurrection of His body was first, and then His ascension in sight of His disciples in a cloud.

First the body is sown natural, and then sown in the Spirit with the resurrection? First we are made alive in Christ while yet in the natural flesh, and then we shall be made perfect in the resurrection of the spiritual body? During the days of our flesh is the millennial reigning with Christ overcoming as flesh as He, as priests and kings to God?

ScottA: To those who fully believe and receive it, the first resurrection is to walk in this world in the carcass of their demise, which is service to God.

Ok, that answers the above. And you pointing to the carcass to which the eagles gather: the old man of the flesh is the dead flesh and carcass we have died to?

Not both the flesh and the Spirit in the resurrection, but the flesh in the resurrection and the Spirit in the ascension--two separate events. The essential difference is the understanding that "ascension" actually means going from the flesh to the Father whom is spirit--meaning that He and we ascend to exist in the spirit, rather than the flesh...which returns to the dust as a part of this natural world, and is destroyed by fervent heat and with fire. This is what was seen at His ascension--but only that part which was flesh. Which, does not at all mean that the spiritual body is less than what we know of the flesh--but more, more than has been imagined.

Yes, what Jesus only eluded to when referring to the carcass and the eagles gathered together...was a couple of things: That all that remained after He "finished" all that He finished, was 1) the dead who were dead already (meaning carcasses) who have come into the world in need of salvation, since that time until salvation comes to "each one in his own order", or to condemnation; and 2) the "gathering" of the saints.

 

[ScottA]

ScottA: However, as this is of God and not of the world, they do not wait until their flesh passes away to ascend, but have already ascended, just as they have already been crucified with Christ.

Is this the ascension of the soul to sit in heavenly places? When the soul is crucified to sin, even as the body of Christ was crucified for sin?

Yes. Meaning, that while Christ has come into their body of sin (taking sin upon Himself), the are in Him and in His righteousness, and do reign with Him until the body of sin passes away.

ScottA: Here, the forty days of Christ between His crucifixion and His ascension is a foreshadowing of two things which are not counted in time by God, but occur during the same time according to the times of this world: the times of the gentiles, and the reign of Christ for the gathering of the saints. Which is also that time of Satan being bound, and also loosed for a short time, until the times are fulfilled...those times foreshadowed by Noah and the forty days and nights of rain upon the earth, and by Jonah and Nineveh.

This being the millennial reign of Christ's body, of His flesh and of His bones, on earth now, in them who's souls sit in heavenly places, while the spiritus of their new man still dwells in earthen vessels?

Satan is bound and cast out of heaven in us who are crucified and risen with Christ by the Spirit: Satan no more has authority over our hearts and minds by temptation of lust: we do not receive nor take thought for his unrighteousness. He is cast down and out with all his vain imaginations and thought for sin. (Eph 6)(Is 55:7) Lust is no more in our hearts to be enticed by temptations of the world. (James 1)

Is he now then persecuting us by the flesh with wrath for our rejection of his rule, and being translated from the kingdom of his darkness to that of the Son? is the flood spued from his mouth all the deceptions, lies, temptations, persecutions, and lying wonders that would deceive even the elect from the faith and steadfastness in Christ?

So far, I am with you, and have no serious arguments, which I will reserve for later. I believe I will then ask very specific questions for yes and no answers at that time.

During the times of the gentiles which is the time of the gathering of the saints, Satan has just (2,000 years ago) been cast out of heaven and bound forevermore, except for what remains of the times of the gentiles, which is that short time of their torment for which he is loosed. Bound forever, but loose for a torment of the gentiles for a short time.

 

[PinSeeker]

You know, Robert, your tone seems to have changed a bit for the better. Not to talk down to you, but, well, good; hope it's not temporary, or just an act...

So then, our agreement is that those who go on sinning and trespassing are not going to finish the race in glory.

It depends on what you mean by "those who go on sinning and trespassing." By that, do you mean:

a) go on sinning/trespassing at all?

If so, then there is a problem with that. Because in this life our natural condition is what it is, avoiding sin perfectly and being absolutely sinless is an impossibility for us.​

Or do you mean:

b) go on sinning/trespassing willingly, as in dwelling in it and at least denying that it's sin at all or somehow thinking that sinning is okay or even sanctioned by God?

If this is what you mean, then yes, we do agree, because people who do this are not really Christians, not born again of the Spirit.​

This is what you keep going back and forth with "OSASers" about. You seem to accept it, then you have a problem with it, then you seem to accept it again, than...

You say there are none that turn back, whom God foreknew, and I say there are those that turn back, whom God foreknew, but did not conform unto the end.

The key here is that word 'foreknew,' as Paul uses it in Romans 8:29. For sure, to everyone, it means He 'knew them beforehand.' But the 'knew' part is the issue. eople attach two very different meanings to that word, and one is, Biblically speaking, very wrong. Would you not agree that in one sense, God foreknows everyone, and in another sense, God foreknows only a certain group of people? If you do, then in the second sense, God's foreknowing is a much different thing than merely knowing folks and what they will do. What's being described is an action that God has done beforehand, something that He has done for some but not for others ~ loved them in a sovereign, distinguishing way ~ rather than just merely a cognitive knowing beforehand. And this is exactly what Paul goes on to expound on in Romans 9. He did something for some, before the foundation of the world, that He did not do for others.

The agreement part is the only thing that matters today: the past is past, and tomorrow will take care of itself. Today is the day to live righteously and holily and blamelessly in Christ: being conformed to His image. If believing you are one of them predestined to finish well helps you to do so, then by all means do so.

Well, knowing that I am one of the elect is faith, God-given assurance of things hoped for and conviction of the unseen, and gives me joy in the journey, even in the face of my struggle to put off the old man and put on the new. I am able to strive to lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and run with endurance the race that is set before me, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of my faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Finishing well in glory is all that matters in the end, and God can correct any lack of knowledge on our part at that time: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Sure.

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

 

[robert derrick]

You know, Robert, your tone seems to have changed a bit for the better. Not to talk down to you, but, well, good; hope it's not temporary, or just an act...


It depends on what you mean by "those who go on sinning and trespassing." By that, do you mean:

a) go on sinning/trespassing at all?

If so, then there is a problem with that. Because in this life our natural condition is what it is, avoiding sin perfectly and being absolutely sinless is an impossibility for us.​

Or do you mean:

b) go on sinning/trespassing willingly, as in dwelling in it and at least denying that it's sin at all or somehow thinking that sinning is okay or even sanctioned by God?

If this is what you mean, then yes, we do agree, because people who do this are not really Christians, not born again of the Spirit.​

This is what you keep going back and forth with "OSASers" about. You seem to accept it, then you have a problem with it, then you seem to accept it again, than...

The natural state of all flesh is as grass: mortal. The same as Jesus' body. Therefore, we can all make mistakes in our mortal bodies, such as hitting our thumbs rather than the nail on the head, but Jesus nor His people curse it.

Sin and transgression of the law is not a mistake: it is all willfully done and is death to the soul. Therefore, all them that go on still sinning and transgressing the law are still dead souls. No exceptions. Professing faith does not disannul the wage of sinning.

It is the soul that sins, not the body, and it is the sinning soul that is dead. The body is created mortal as the grass to begin with.

And so, there is no making difference with going on still in sins and trespasses. Every little child knows exactly what that means. Those who try to parse it are disingenuous and not pure in heart with God: sinners seeking to excuse going on still sinning.

OSAS teaches the lie of sin nature in the body to justify going on still sinning with the body, while the soul is excused by grace, as though it were no more the soul sinning with the body, but only the old body on it's own.

The key here is that word 'foreknew,' as Paul uses it in Romans 8:29. For sure, to everyone, it means He 'knew them beforehand.' But the 'knew' part is the issue. eople attach two very different meanings to that word, and one is, Biblically speaking, very wrong. Would you not agree that in one sense, God foreknows everyone, and in another sense, God foreknows only a certain group of people? If you do, then in the second sense, God's foreknowing is a much different thing than merely knowing folks and what they will do. What's being described is an action that God has done beforehand, something that He has done for some but not for others ~ loved them in a sovereign, distinguishing way ~ rather than just merely a cognitive knowing beforehand. And this is exactly what Paul goes on to expound on in Romans 9. He did something for some, before the foundation of the world, that He did not do for others.

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

God foreknows everyone: they all have the same beginning on earth, but not the same end.

If you do, then in the second sense, God's foreknowing is a much different thing than merely knowing folks and what they will do. What's being described is an action that God has done beforehand, something that He has done for some but not for others ~ loved them in a sovereign, distinguishing way ~ rather than just merely a cognitive knowing beforehand. And this is exactly what Paul goes on to expound on in Romans 9. He did something for some, before the foundation of the world, that He did not do for others.

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

God merely foreknows everyone by name and what they do, especially what they are at the end.

How He foreknows is what He has being doing, is doing, and shall be doing: Watching all things come to pass impartially from on high: and so being with God in the beginning, He knows from the beginning all things to come to pass, including their end: 'Cognitive' only.

He did something for some, before the foundation of the world, that He did not do for others.

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

The only thing God did from the foundation of the world is create the world, and commit His own soul to dying for the sins of the world. He did not die before the cross on earth, and He did not do anything to determine who would and would not believe and be saved unto the end.

He has done the same for every soul He makes: to be a living soul born with mortal flesh. That's it. All the rest is up to the soul to choose the only true way to come the Father in this life: Jesus Christ.

'What' is predestinated for whosoever. Not who. He only knows who beforehand, because He is even watching who now.

God watched His own Son as a man die on the cross, and He is watching any men that take up their cross as His Son.

Predestination is only determining the way to Himself beforehand, and so He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The only soul God determined what that soul would do before entering this life, is the Son. None other.

Well, knowing that I am one of the elect is faith, God-given assurance of things hoped for and conviction of the unseen, and gives me joy in the journey, even in the face of my struggle to put off the old man and put on the new. I am able to strive to lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and run with endurance the race that is set before me, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of my faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Knowing we have eternal life is by knowing Him, which is only known by keeping His commandments.

Convincing ourselves we are saved, and having spiritual experiences proves nothing, except that there is a God in heaven.

Still 'struggling' with the old man is confessing to be still sinning against God: we condemn ourselves as still having not crucified the old man and put on Christ only.

OSAS justifies it by making the mortal body the scapegoat for sinning, the old man of sin, which cannot completely die until the grave. It is the error of 'progressive' sanctification and justification with God, called the salvation 'process': trying to sin less and less and do more good instead.

That is the self-righteous justification of ourselves, not the once for all salvation and sanctification of Christ within the heart, and so with the body.

Faith alone salvation is continually trying to convince ourselves we are saved despite still transgressing the law of Christ and sinning against His commandment: only the pure in heart shall see God.

Not those convincing themselves they will.

If you purify your heart of lust to sin against God, and so be pure as He is, then you will no longer be 'struggling' with your own old man of sin, but will kill him once for all, and only know Him and the power of His resurrection, to be free today from sinning against Him: not in heart, mind, nor body.

Sin is unrighteous transgression of the law: not stupid painful mistakes made with mortal bodies.

 

[marks]

by grace ye are saved.

By grace we are being saved, not by grace we were once saved, or once 'got saved'.

There is only being saved, and obtaining eternal salvation by enduring and being saved unto the end.

"ye are the ones having been saved" is the reading here.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Being saved by grace through faith and justified by grace through works is an ongoing salvation of becoming sons of God by the power of His Spirit.

"out of God were begotten".

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is no 'got saved' in Scripture, as a one-time event that is forever done and finished, which is why the good work begun of being saved must be finished to obtain salvation forever.

The "ones having been saved", in Ephesians 2:8, that's the Perfect tense, which speaks of a once and it's effect continues action.

Much love!