Eternal punishment is not the case.

[MatthewG]

There is a lot of cross referencing in the verse you provided @OzSpen. Thank you for mentioning it. Also the opening statement was written to the church of Thessalonians. So who where these that would end up suffering the age-during destruction (ruin)?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Is this death; the second death of dying to the self?

You mean the second death? Have you died yet? If you haven’t yet died, no, dying to self/picking up your cross and following cannot be the second death. You can’t die a second time unless you die a first time…
The second death is, having died, you are resurrected at the end, judged, then go to a second death, which is the lake of fire.
Except some men don’t want to believe God would be merciful but they instead think the second death is not a death but is instead an eternal life. Of torture.
Even men, seeing an animal in mortal distress, will mercifully shoot it, ending its misery, not wanting it to suffer any longer, but somehow men are more merciful than God…?
If your theological structure has men being MORE merciful than God, you have a problem…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

MatthewG,

You've missed this verse: "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." (2 Thess 1:9 ESV)

Oz

If you condemn a building and destroy it, you do not keep destroying it. It is already destroyed. It has been eternally destroyed.

 

[MatthewG]

My question then to you my friend @stunnedbygrace does death always have to be literal? Is there no way to reconcile death figuratively?

I see your position though, you must die, then you die again, going to the lake of fire. (I don’t agree with that, right now at this moment )

Do you remember when John the Baptist was preaching and said that one was coming that he wasn’t worth of tying his shoe, whom would baptize in the Holy Spirit and fire?

That fire burns away the darkness inside of our souls. Just to clarify we are constantly taking about the lake of fire. Where is this fire coming from?

Our natural self is to be hateful, greedy, lustful, and all of these things right? Why does Paul in his letter to the Romans suggest we die to these things (sin) is that not a form of dying to self?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

My question then to you my friend @stunnedbygrace does death always have to be literal? Is there no way to reconcile death figuratively?

I see your position though, you must die, then you die again, going to the lake of fire. (I don’t agree with that, right now at this moment )

Do you remember when John the Baptist was preaching and said that one was coming that he wasn’t worth of tying his shoe, whom would baptize in the Holy Spirit and fire?

That fire burns away the darkness inside of our souls. Just to clarify we are constantly taking about the lake of fire.

Our natural self is to be hateful, greedy, lustful, and all of these things right? Why does Paul in his letter suggest we die to these things (sin) is that not a form of dying to self?

yes, that is dying. It is not physical dying. It is giving up your life and will. It isn’t figurative. It is…spiritual. You give up your life, your wants, your desires, for His will and desires. It is not easy. Dying is not easy. Dying is struggle.

So your question is…why can the second death not be real death?

 

[OzSpen]

Hello @amadeus

I use to believe that people where sent to hell forever and ever tortured by God and that was because it was his will for them to be in this type of thing. I have now moved on from this line of thinking. I never consider people where completely destroyed in the term annihilation.

I have to admit to myself that these are doctrines from men that were supposed upon me as I grew up and listened in and out of churches.

I now believe what the book of the unveiling vision of Jesus Christ and what is suggest about heaven. That inside are believers of the Kingdom, and outside are the unbelievers.

What are your thoughts? I could be wrong but at the same time I wouldn’t suggest something that wasn’t biblically sound. If the book of the unveiling of Plan of Christ Jesus the Lord God Almighty is in fact to destroy people in a lake of fire forever and ever and ever I would reconsider though that isn’t what the book end entails, my friend.

MatthewG,

The fact that it is everlasting destruction demonstrates everlasting is NOT annihilation. This is refuted by the language, "away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." It is not zapped out of existence (cf. 1 Thess 5:3; 1 Cor 5:5; 1 Tim 6:9). Everlasting life is based on contemplating the face of the Lord forever and in His presence.

Everlasting destruction indicates it is not going out of existence but is away from the presence of the Lord and experiencing God's vengeance. It is the opposite of experiencing God's goodness in eternal life. The persecutors will experience God's wrath (as in v. 8; cf. Rom 9:3).

I cannot imagine anything more horrible than living eternally but banished from God's presence.

Someone composed this verse:

"To live apart from God is death,
'Tis good his face to seek;
My refuge is the living God,
His praise I long to speak" (based on Ps 73:27).​

Oz

 

[MatthewG]

@stunnedbygrace you are a smart woman,and you answered the question yourself, but it in a sense dying to the world, because your desires are more for the spirit and not much for the physical.

It seems you look at the second death as a real death, I don’t see it as that. I see it as death to the self. Maybe people who are outside of the gates can do this, even though they are unbelievers. Maybe we can help them by coming outside to share Christ with them in Heaven.

It’s all conjecture but is my Hope friend.

 

[MatthewG]

MatthewG,

The fact that it is everlasting destruction demonstrates everlasting is NOT annihilation. This is refuted by the language, "away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might." It is not zapped out of existence (cf. 1 Thess 5:3; 1 Cor 5:5; 1 Tim 6:9). Everlasting life is based on contemplating the face of the Lord forever and in His presence.

Everlasting destruction indicates it is not going out of existence but is away from the presence of the Lord and experiencing God's vengeance. It is the opposite of experiencing God's goodness in eternal life. The persecutors will experience God's wrath (as in v. 8; cf. Rom 9:3).

I cannot imagine anything more horrible than living eternally but banished from God's presence.

Someone composed this verse:

"To live apart from God is death,
'Tis good his face to seek;
My refuge is the living God,
His praise I long to speak" (based on Ps 73:27).​

Oz

Thank you for clarifying your sharing and use of scripture Oz, you can see post #67 which is my eternal hope, to be able to do.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

God is not going to destroy everyone, who is not a believer.


.

why does your first paragraph say God does not want anyone to be destroyed? If no one will be destroyed, why has the word destroyed even been used in that scripture?

 

[MatthewG]

Just imagine this scenario,

You have a husband and wife who have three sons, and two daughters.

Three of them have faith in God and Jesus Christ, and two do not.

All of them die at differing ages.

Now God accepts the first three because of faith and love. Having presented their case it was because of Jesus who saved them and they have nothing to offer to God but this.

The three also love the other two, but the other two were really mean and didn’t care about God or Jesus nor did they love. They in fact went on a murder spree. And they had not repented.

They are resurrected and up to the gate of heaven and they are asked why they should be let in they state their case which God has judged them as unbelievers who had not love, and they loved to murder, and lie.

God says I’ve got a place for you to stay and it is out here, in the darkness, away from me, and the three who loved the other two despite what they had done, and ask God can we go help them? Would you think God would let them bring the message of Christ to them even in the afterlife?

This is what I see in revelation 22.

 

[MatthewG]

why does your first paragraph say God does not want anyone to be destroyed? If no one will be destroyed, why has the word destroyed even been used in that scripture?

It is Gods imperative will that people come to repentance. It might even happen after this life, however there are still two places people end up. Either inside or outside the kingdom. It’s not universalism which says all people will go into heaven immediately hereafter. There is only way to get to God which is through Christ and that is how people are saved to the kingdom of heaven.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@stunnedbygrace you are a smart woman,and you answered the question yourself, but it in a sense dying to the world, because your desires are more for the spirit and not much for the physical.

It seems you look at the second death as a real death, I don’t see it as that. I see it as death to the self. Maybe people who are outside of the gates can do this, even though they are unbelievers. Maybe we can help them by coming outside to share Christ with them in Heaven.

It’s all conjecture but is my Hope friend.

Ah, it’s a lot, isn’t it? I believe outside the gates is the outer darkness. It is a different place than the lake of fire. Fire produces light, not darkness.

Some people seem to think the outer darkness is the same thing as the lake of fire, but that makes no sense to me. And I think the outer darkness appears to be forever, unlike a more merciful annihilation in the lake of fire. It says hell, in the end, is thrown into the lake of fire and it says death is thrown into the lake of fire, so no more death, death destroyed - a good thing. But it never says the outer darkness is thrown into the lake of fire. It then sounds like the outer darkness, for humans, is a WORSE fate than the lake of fire.

I also hope the outer darkness is not forever. Because it would mean it is full of people who somehow have eternal life in them and I know of no way for that to be possible unless you had the new birth. So it’s terrifying to think of…

 

[MatthewG]

You know with that, God is a consuming fire. I imagine from the scenario, given one the husband and wife can be reassured all of their children have been resurrected and they are there in the heavenly realm, though two would be on the outside and three on the inside.

Imagine them dying and asking God do you know what happened to all my family, and him saying only three are here with me the other two have been completely obliterated. Would God really say something like this? Not the God I serve who is nothing but Love.

The gates of the city, never close they are always open. So this is why the hope of Christ is still relevant within heaven.

The scripture says every knee will (this is not forced God doesn’t force God allows choice) bow and every knee will confess Jesus is the Lord, and the kingdom of God is everlasting and ever increasing never to stop.

Do you finally understand my point in all of these things I’ve tried to present? Maybe not all of your questions are answered but this my picture I’m suggesting is a reality however every bit of it is conjecture yet with use of scripture.

Thank you so much for sharing and dialoguing along with sticking with me, @stunnedbygrace

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I really like talking with you Mathew. A LOT! I actually look forward to it and go looking for your posts every day. You are one of the few who can disagree (currently) and not become ugly over it. You don’t know what a joy that is.

And you are full of hope and have hope that God is even more merciful than you think, rather than some men who seem to have been indoctrinated into unmercifulness and coldness. It’s a fresh breath, that’s for sure!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You know with that, God is a consuming fire. I imagine from the scenario, given one the husband and wife can be reassured all of their children have been resurrected and they are there in the heavenly realm, though two would be on the outside and three on the inside.

I remember having almost this same exact thought years ago, after I first met God. I think I’ll leave it alone though, between you and God, except to say, the renewing of our mind changes some things. We begin to think differently.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ah, it’s a lot, isn’t it? I believe outside the gates is the outer darkness. It is a different place than the lake of fire. Fire produces light, not darkness.

Some people seem to think the outer darkness is the same thing as the lake of fire, but that makes no sense to me. And I think the outer darkness appears to be forever, unlike a more merciful annihilation in the lake of fire. It says hell, in the end, is thrown into the lake of fire and it says death is thrown into the lake of fire, so no more death, death destroyed - a good thing. But it never says the outer darkness is thrown into the lake of fire. It then sounds like the outer darkness, for humans, is a WORSE fate than the lake of fire.

I also hope the outer darkness is not forever. Because it would mean it is full of people who somehow have eternal life in them and I know of no way for that to be possible unless you had the new birth. So it’s terrifying to think of…

I just remembered another thing I forgot to say. I take some hope in the parable about the man whose debt was forgiven and then he went and refused to forgive another mans debt, so he got thrown in prison and was told, you will not get out until you have paid the last farthing. It doesn’t end with cutting him to pieces or anything. To me, that’s still got some hope left…

 

[MatthewG]

I remember having almost this same exact thought years ago, after I first met God. I think I’ll leave it alone though, between you and God, except to say, the renewing of our mind changes some things. We begin to think differently.

You are wise to leave it as such. All of us here on the forums have different ideas in how we believe. Some of it has been from the teaching others, that have been imposed in and through religious doctrines even dogmatic stances in churches unbeknownst to me. Then you have the Holy Spirit that guides and leads us into the truth.

I just remembered another thing I forgot to say. I take some hope in the parable about the man whose debt was forgiven and then he went and refused to forgive another mans debt, so he got thrown in prison and was told, you will not get out until you have paid the last farthing. It doesn’t end with cutting him to pieces or anything. To me, that’s still got some hope left…

You share a great hopeful message in sharing this parable.

You know from what is understood in my mind, from every point of doctrine that could be made and stated in this world. The whole message of the Apostolic record, is faith, and love.

Nothing more will ever be as important as your personal faith in trusting in the promises of God and your love for Him and other people my friend.

And hopefully anyone who comes by and notices this thread while it last learn some great uncovering unveiling truths from each and all of us that posted here in the past few days.

May they test all things by the spirit, and hold on to the things which are good even though the things that we might share could be wrong, which even goes for me personally.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Hello bob that is a very cool banjo you got there.

Yup - it's a 1996 Gibson Mastertone Earl Scruggs model, that was my "bonus" from the company I worked for at the time. We were in Nashville working an Industrial show, and they presented it to me there. I had to play it at the show in our booth to make it a "Business Expense" so they could "Write it off". Fellow in the next booth had brought his guitar, so we made some music. I could never have afforded to buy it myself. for some good 'grass see "bcarabbio" in YouTube.

 

[GEN2REV]

The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

God is not going to destroy everyone, who is not a believer.


“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:14-15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

There is no such thing as bad news. Only great news. That people outside the gate are not completely closed off. My speculation they never will be, and the kingdom will never cease.

God will not force. God by his own volition desires to have all repent. That can be in this life or the next life though their is what seems to be a spiritual loss for them, being outside the gates upon entering.

This is not universalism but Gods imperative will that will never be truncated.

I remember when you were new here. You were much more reserved, kind of quiet and unsure of yourself.

You have re-emerged as the consummate instigator on this Forum.

Why? How do think that supports, or teaches, Christianity to always be posting threads and posts that offend, just to get a response or .... what is your thought process on that?

You don't teach, or support, scripture in any way to post threads claiming unbelievers will not be punished/destroyed/sent to hell, etc. That is actually blasphemy, just in case you didn't know that.

Jesus, Himself, made it very clear that ALL unbelievers will be destroyed in hell.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well lookie there, Mathew is now officially in the club. You have to be called a heretic at least once, which you have been, yesterday, and you have to be called a blasphemer at least once, and then you are a full fledged member of The Hated By Religious Men Club. I’m proud to welcome you into the club Mathew!