Eternal Security

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justbyfaith

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It says Israel has a Maker.
My point was that Jesus was made according to the seed of David according to the flesh (in His humanity). And that Jesus is YHWH.

Of course He is not made as pertaining to His Deity; that is more of a transfer.
 

gadar perets

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This is a biblical attitude (Matthew 5:10-12 (kjv), 2 Timothy 3:10-12, John 15:18-25, 1 John 3:13-15) along with religious preoccupation (1 Peter 2:1-3 (kjv))
I said you have a "persecution complex". Here is Merriam Websters medical definition;

: the feeling of being persecuted especially without basis in reality

I did not say you are being "persecuted". You simply feel your are, but without justification. Therefore, the verses you quoted here and in ensuing posts are irrelevant since they refer to truly being persecuted. However, the fact that you have this complex AND quoted 1 John 3:13-15 shows you truly believe we hate you and that we are murderers with no eternal life in us (verse 15). Actually, verse 14 is true of me;

We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.
The only reason I continue to dialogue with you after all the things you accuse me of, all the evil you have spoken of concerning me, and all the times you told me I'm going to hell, is because I love you as a brother and don't want you to continue in your lack of understanding concerning Scripture.

This discussion of hating you started when you accused CoreIssue and all who oppose the KJV only belief, including me, of such personal hatred of you. That is your persecution complex talking where NO persecution has EVER taken place.

I have no idea what this means.
 

gadar perets

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The "glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1.14) refers to the eternal Son.
It refers to the Son, not the "eternal" Son. The word "eternal" is never used of the Son in Scripture.

"God of God,
Light of light,
Lo, He abhors not the virgin's womb,
Verily God, begotten, not created,
O come let us adore Him, Christ the Lord!"
Please stick to Scripture and not use trinitarian songs to teach doctrine.
 

justbyfaith

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No. Your point was that "Jehovah has a maker".
YHWH = Jehovah. If Jesus is therefore YHWH/Jehovah; and Jesus was made according to the flesh, then the verse in question (Isaiah 45:22) is referring to the fact that Jehovah/YHWH was indeed made according to the flesh.
 

justbyfaith

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I said you have a "persecution complex". Here is Merriam Websters medical definition;

: the feeling of being persecuted especially without basis in reality
I did not say you are being "persecuted". You simply feel your are, but without justification. Therefore, the verses you quoted here and in ensuing posts are irrelevant since they refer to truly being persecuted.

There is indeed justification and a basis in reality.

One of the definite aspects of what persecution is all about is that it has to do with people attempting to hinder the progress of a person's ministry and what he is trying to do in winning souls to Jesus Christ. Therefore simply arguing with me may qualify as persecution; but saying that I am a member of a cult definitely qualifies as persecution; as you have attempted to discredit me. I think you should consider what it says in Proverbs 22:1 and how you are attempting to damage my honour: not to mention the fact that if you had said this in a situation where my identity was known (and someone might be able to determine it from some things that I have posted), there could be repercussions for me with the mental health system simply because of the accusation. Btw, satan is the accuser of the brethren. So, keep contending for the fact that there is no basis in reality for the fact that I know persecution when I see it, especially when it is directed towards me, so that you can prove that I am no one to be listened to and that I should be placed somewhere where my right to freedom of speech would be taken away.

You are perfectly blameless; there is no sin in you.
 

gadar perets

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YHWH = Jehovah. If Jesus is therefore YHWH/Jehovah; and Jesus was made according to the flesh, then the verse in question (Isaiah 45:22) is referring to the fact that Jehovah/YHWH was indeed made according to the flesh.
Because you falsely believe the Son is YHWH, even though I showed you that Scripture says the Father is YHWH, you falsely interpret Isaiah to say YHWH was made. However, the verse does NOT say YHWH or Jehovah or Jesus was made. It says Israel was made. "his maker" refers to the antecedent "Israel".
 

gadar perets

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There is indeed justification and a basis in reality.

One of the definite aspects of what persecution is all about is that it has to do with people attempting to hinder the progress of a person's ministry and what he is trying to do in winning souls to Jesus Christ. Therefore simply arguing with me may qualify as persecution; but saying that I am a member of a cult definitely qualifies as persecution; as you have attempted to discredit me. I think you should consider what it says in Proverbs 22:1 and how you are attempting to damage my honour: not to mention the fact that if you had said this in a situation where my identity was known (and someone might be able to determine it from some things that I have posted), there could be repercussions for me with the mental health system simply because of the accusation. Btw, satan is the accuser of the brethren. So, keep contending for the fact that there is no basis in reality for the fact that I know persecution when I see it, especially when it is directed towards me, so that you can prove that I am no one to be listened to and that I should be placed somewhere where my right to freedom of speech would be taken away.

You are perfectly blameless; there is no sin in you.
I am not attempting to hinder you from winning souls, but from teaching them falsely. Nor have I ever said you are in a cult. Nor have I attempted to discredit you, but what you teach. If my explaining to you the correct understanding of a Scripture is dishonoring you, so be it.
Was the Apostle Paul persecuting the Jews by correcting their understanding of Scripture? No.
 

justbyfaith

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I am not attempting to hinder you from winning souls, but from teaching them falsely.

That is your opinion.

Nor have I ever said you are in a cult.

You have implied it at the very least.

Nor have I attempted to discredit you, but what you teach.

Just as God considers the Word that He spoke forth to be Himself, so I consider what I teach to be inseparable from who I am as a person.

Iow, when you discredit someone's teaching, you are discrediting them.

But really, you have attempted to discredit me in order to discredit my teaching.

Telling me that I have a persecution complex is a slam that I am not willing to forgive you for unless you repent.
 

justbyfaith

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Because you falsely believe the Son is YHWH, even though I showed you that Scripture says the Father is YHWH, you falsely interpret Isaiah to say YHWH was made. However, the verse does NOT say YHWH or Jehovah or Jesus was made. It says Israel was made. "his maker" refers to the antecedent "Israel".
You are still ignoring the plain meaning of Isaiah 9:6; which declares that the Son is indeed YHWH (the Mighty God, the everlasting Father). I expect that in a few moments you will go through the shennanigans that you normally go through in attempting to say that it doesn't mean what it says by changing the wording of the second thing not once, but twice; by saying that the original Hebrew does not say that, but this: and then again saying that the original Hebrew doesn't exactly say this, but this other thing.
 

gadar perets

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Just as God considers the Word that He spoke forth to be Himself, so I consider what I teach to be inseparable from who I am as a person.

Iow, when you discredit someone's teaching, you are discrediting them.

But really, you have attempted to discredit me in order to discredit my teaching.
Well, in that case, all you have done was discredit me since all you have done is try to discredit my teaching. It works two ways. However, I don't really view your trying to correct my understanding of Scripture as a personal attack to discredit me. Neither should you.

Telling me that I have a persecution complex is a slam that I am not willing to forgive you for unless you repent.
And telling me I am going to hell is not a slam on me?? Yes, it is and its far greater and more serious than my words to you. I'll tell you what I am going to do for your sake. I will repent of saying you have a persecution complex if you will repent of your words that started this whole conversation in the first place. From your post #2021:

Obviously; it is evident that we are the object of many people's hatred; which only substantiates my view that we have the truth; for Jesus said it would be this way.
Here, in your reply to CoreIssue's comment about you being a KJV only person, you falsely accused him, me and all other people who are not KJV only people as hating KJV only people. I know that to be untrue. Therefore, I said you have a persecution complex. When you repent of lying about us, then I will change my statement to a question by saying;

"It seems to me that you have a persecution complex. Is that true or am I misunderstanding you?"​
 

gadar perets

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You are still ignoring the plain meaning of Isaiah 9:6; which declares that the Son is indeed YHWH (the Mighty God, the everlasting Father). I expect that in a few moments you will go through the shennanigans that you normally go through in attempting to say that it doesn't mean what it says by changing the wording of the second thing not once, but twice; by saying that the original Hebrew does not say that, but this: and then again saying that the original Hebrew doesn't exactly say this, but this other thing.
Why are you changing the subject from Isaiah 45:11 to Isaiah 9:6. The issue is not whether or not the Son is YHWH in Isaiah 45:11, but who "his maker" is referring to. You erroneously proclaim "his maker" refers to "YHWH's maker" and I say it refers to "Israel's maker" who is YHWH. Since Psalm 2:7 says YHWH is Yeshua's Father, you have Isaiah 45:11 saying YHWH was made by YHWH.

Isaiah 45:11 goes on to say, "Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me." It doesn't say "Son", but "sons" referring to "Israel" who are the "sons" YHWH made.

Now is the time to humble yourself and admit you are interpreting the verse wrong so we can move on.
 

justbyfaith

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Well, in that case, all you have done was discredit me since all you have done is try to discredit my teaching. It works two ways

Except that when I discredit you, it isn't for righteousness' sake, but for false teaching's sake.

From your post #2021:

Obviously; it is evident that we are the object of many people's hatred; which only substantiates my view that we have the truth; for Jesus said it would be this way.
Here, in your reply to CoreIssue's comment about you being a KJV only person, you falsely accused him, me and all other people who are not KJV only people as hating KJV only people. I know that to be untrue.

I have personally felt the venom that comes out of the mouths of anti-kjv-only people. It is absolutely atrocious; not to mention the fact that over at CARM, they report you for even the most minor of infractions that they themselves are guilty of. They bait you by acting a certain way; and when you respond in kind, the next thing you know you are banned from the site. I don't think that they do this to people that they consider to be on their side.

Why are you changing the subject from Isaiah 45:11 to Isaiah 9:6. The issue is not whether or not the Son is YHWH in Isaiah 45:11, but who "his maker" is referring to. You erroneously proclaim "his maker" refers to "YHWH's maker" and I say it refers to "Israel's maker" who is YHWH. Since Psalm 2:7 says YHWH is Yeshua's Father, you have Isaiah 45:11 saying YHWH was made by YHWH.

I thought we were discussing the teaching of the whole Bible. The fact that you want to stick to one verse indicates that you don't want to go by the biblical hermeneutic of 1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv).

Now is the time to humble yourself and admit you are interpreting the verse wrong so we can move on.

I'm plenty humble in knowing that I haven't misinterpreted it.
 

justbyfaith

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One time I received an award for humility; and then I pinned it up on my wall. True story! :eek::p:D:cool:
 
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Heb 13:8

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Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest (loipos), we were by nature deserving of wrath.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve (lupeó) the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thess 4:13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve (lupeó) like the rest (loipos) of mankind, who have no hope.

1 Thess 5:6 So then, let us not be like others (loipos), who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober.
 

Heb 13:8

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I've been trying to tell Rollo this for years now.
If we cannot LEAVE GOD after we become saved,
it means we have lost our free will.

And the entire bible assures us that we DO have free will.
Which means we could leave God, if we so chose to.

Because most, or the large majority, of Christians remain with God all their life, does not mean that it's IMPOSSIBLE to leave Him and become lost again.

This is the crux of the matter....
I say that if the N.T. makes provision for leaving God, it means it can happen.

Hebrews 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:20-22 makes this very clear. But I'm told by the OSAS crowd that it's speaking about false teachers. It doesn't matter WHO it's speaking of....they once believed and now no longer believe.

Heb 6:4-6 is in reference to maturity in Christ, via Heb 5:14 and Heb 6:1.
Having lack of maturity doesn't mean we are no longer saved.
The entire chapter of 2 Pet 2 is in reference to false prophets and teachers who were never born again to begin with, 2 Pet 2:1.
 

Heb 13:8

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I agree with all of the above.
Verse 37
Whom does Good love?
Those who love and worship Him.
Is it possible for someone to stop loving God because he had lost his faith due to tribulation, deaths, sickness, etc. And no longer believes in this God who has disappointed him so often?

And what can separate us from God but ourselves....nothing.

Not even ourselves.
 

Heb 13:8

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11 am!

God does not want robots. This is precisely why He gave us free will to either choose to eat the forbidden fruit or not. Adam made a free will choice to eat it.

That's a sloppy comparison. Adam and Eve lived and died prior to the seal of God, Eph 1:13-14. If you walk away from your human father, are you still blood related? The blood of Christ is infinitely stronger. Stop doubting.
 

Heb 13:8

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If a person does not have the ability to forsake God, it means he has lost his free will.

HE is the one that never forsakes US. Can you un-bury yourself out of His death? No, Rom 6:3-4.

Co 4:8
We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;

Unchecked Copy Box 2Co 4:9
Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

Unchecked Copy Box 2Co 4:10
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

Unchecked Copy Box 2Co 4:11
For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Unchecked Copy Box 2Co 4:12
So then death worketh in us, but life in you.