Eternal Security

[GodsGrace]

I thought that's what you might have been thinking.

Think of it this way. We're walking down a row of houses. I point to one, and say, You have to remain in this one if you are to be saved. Otherwise you will be swept away. So you enter that house to remain there. And the door shuts and locks behind you.



There are other houses you can camp out in, and think you are in the right one, but when you find you "no longer believe", your belief was something other than saving faith in Christ. Christ is faithful over God's house as a Son. Not a hireling, as a Son. Christ is faithful. Not you or me, Christ.

We are His house if we hold fast our confidence, and if we don't hold fast our confidence, we are not His house. Best not to be confused over which you are, His house, or some other house.

Much love!

Where are the biblical verse to support what you say above?

AND...you've changed your analogy...
analogies are a waste of time.

Only what Jesus said or what the Apostles taught is important.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm asking you whether in your estimation that where Paul says "branches were broken off", were these people of whom it was written in Romans 6 had been baptized into Christ, into His death, buried with Him in baptism? That as Christ died, they also died, and having died, were made free from sin?

I don't think so myself. I'm wondering if that's what you think? And if so, why?

Much love!

I do not believe anyone is made free from sin.
If that were the case why would we be forgiving anyone of their debt (sin) against us
and why would John be saying we have an advocate with the Father?

There are those that believe we no longer sin after salvation...I'm not one of them because I don't find this in scripture.

We can agree on this!

 

[marks]

I do not believe anyone is made free from sin.

A great passage to learn . . .

Romans 6:6-18 KJV
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

A great passage to learn . . .

Romans 6:6-18 KJV
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Much love!

Except for number 7 and 18 above which YOU highlighted...
I think that if you read what I highlighted and underlined, you will understand better what Romans 6:6-18 is stating.

If we no longer sin, then John and Jesus were lying.
I posted to 1stCL regarding this and will not repeat.

As to your numbers 7 and 18, Paul is referring to being made free from SIN...
as in SIN BEING OUR MASTER.

If this is not the case, you can throw your bible away since neither Jesus nor John nor any of the other writers
can be trusted due to extreme conflict in teachings.

 

[marks]

Where are the biblical verse to support what you say above?

It's just illustrative of the language.

If you abide in Jesus, you will bear fruit, and if you do not abide in Jesus, you are cast out as a branch, to be gathered and burned.

One or the other, you do abide in Jesus, or you don't abide in Jesus. Many people have this thought that abiding in Jesus can end, or that not abiding in Jesus means you previously did, but neither of those are part of the language there.

What Jesus taught was that if it's this way, this will happen, and if it's that way, that will happen. What He did not say was, If you stop abiding in Me, He said, if you abide not in me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Except for number 7 and 18 above which YOU highlighted...
I think that if you read what I highlighted and underlined, you will understand better what Romans 6:6-18 is stating.

If we no longer sin, then John and Jesus were lying.
I posted to 1stCL regarding this and will not repeat.

As to your numbers 7 and 18, Paul is referring to being made free from SIN...
as in SIN BEING OUR MASTER.

If this is not the case, you can throw your bible away since neither Jesus nor John nor any of the other writers
can be trusted due to extreme conflict in teachings.

What made sin our master, and how have we been freed?

Justification is being dead and alive a new person. Sin is condemned in the flesh, and we are now alive to God.

There is another conversation to be had about why we still have the works of the flesh - sin - in our lives.

But faith is what overcomes. Believing what is written.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Except for number 7 and 18 above which YOU highlighted...

Yes, we have died in Christ for that purpose, literally make the body of sin of no effect, or rendered powerless. We cannot be controlled by our fleshy bodies any longer, unless we stop believing that's true, or for whatever reason fail to assert our spiritual life when we are in contrary circumstances (afflictions from without, sinful desires from within).

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, we have died in Christ for that purpose, literally make the body of sin of no effect, or rendered powerless. We cannot be controlled by our fleshy bodies any longer, unless we stop believing that's true, or for whatever reason fail to assert our spiritual life when we are in contrary circumstances (afflictions from without, sinful desires from within).

Much love!

You make some good points, but it'll have to wait till tomorrow.
'night

 

[marks]

You make some good points, but it'll have to wait till tomorrow.
'night

Sleep well!!

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God clings to you.
It's YOU that must also cling to Him.

Again, to me, this means you are trying to save (justify) yourself. Not getting down and letting God save you.

Jesus said if we abide in Him we will not be thrown out as dead branches.
Paul said to hold on tight...
Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


1 Corinthians 9:27
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.


What do the above mean to you?

Again he is talking about sanctification. Not justification.

Jesus said he lifts up the branches and cuts away the dead and burns them. That is pruning us.

As far as Colossians goes. Again, What is yoru faith in? Is it in Christ, or is it in something else? (The law. Religion, The world)

Where is your faith, where is your heart? Because scripture says that is where you will go;.

Why would you have no hope?
Are you planning to abandon God?

Why would you trust yourself and think there is NOTHING that can happen to you which could cause your faith to dwindle. When so many people have had life changing things happen to them and they walked away?

You do not know what will happen 20 years from now.

Amen and praise be to God for what you say above.
Personally, I don't know how anyone could leave God's love.

But I do have a question for you:
Were you still saved those 5 years that you left and decided who you would serve?

Was I saved those 5 years?

1. Did I have eternal life? Yes
2. Did I have the HS who was given as a pledge until the day of redemption? Yes
3. Was I born again? Yes
4. Was I a child of God? yes
5. Did God leave me? No
6. Was I baptized into Christ? Yes. (Spirit baptism not water)
6. Was I chastened by the Holy Spirit? More than you can imagine. At the end, I was looking to commit suicide

Decide who I would serve? Not sure what you mean by this question. We are saved by faith in God to save us. Not by our ability to serve. Again, that would be saving yourself. And would not be a grace based salvation. So once again, i am confused.

Romans 6:16

You yourself seem to be proof that one could abandon God, hopefully just for a while.

Many people have died the sin unto death. Where they for whatever reason walked away and in their Tim of sin died BeFOR having the ability or time to return.

We should not judge their salvation. Only God knows.

The prodigal son returned. He could just have easily have died before he returned. He would still be the son.

Also. I never stopped denying Jesus as my savior the whole time I was gone. I may have walked away from his blessings and his love and his guidance because of something that happened that tore me up inside. But I never became the anti-Christ Who denied Jesus (1 john)

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I never became the anti-Christ Who denied Jesus

Amen! I have NEVER understood how those whom "God Has GIVEN a sound mind"
(2 Timothy 1:7), would Even Consider such a thing!

 

[Taken]

I do not believe anyone is made free from sin.

Free from Sin, Is not “sinless”.
Free from Sin, Is having been forgiven all of ones “sin”.
Free from Sin, Is becoming Converted, “crucified” with Christ.
Dead body’s do not sin.
Converted “IN” Christ, is living IN Christ’s body, until “your” body is Raised, “sinless”.

If that were the case why would we be forgiving anyone of their debt (sin) against us

Sin is Against God. God Forgives sin.
Debts, are Trespasses, that men commit Against men. Men forgive men of trespasses.
“If” you forgive men their trespasses Against you (whether or not a man forgives you for your trespasses Against men)...God will ALSO forgive your trespasses Against men.

* Less you ARE a Jew, Under the Law....men trespassing Against men was called a sin.

and why would John be saying we have an advocate with the Father?

Because you are naturally born in Sin. (Naturally born, not knowing God, certainly can Not believe in what you do not know.)
Jesus IS the Advocate, Speaks on behalf of a Believer...until Conversion.
Once Converted, a Believer, has direct communication with God.
Once Converted, a Converted Believer, can NOT, by Gods Power IN the man, Ever again stand Against God.

John 14: (JESUS ADVOCATING)
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16: (CONVERTED no longer needs an Advocate)
[26] At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

Matt 6:
[14] For “if’ ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you...

Eph 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Trespasses AND sins...two different things.
Man against man ~ trespasses
Man against God ~ sin

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

Free from Sin, Is not “sinless”.
Free from Sin, Is having been forgiven all of ones “sin”.
Free from Sin, Is becoming Converted, “crucified” with Christ.
Dead body’s do not sin.
Converted “IN” Christ, is living IN Christ’s body, until “your” body is Raised, “sinless”.



Sin is Against God. God Forgives sin.
Debts, are Trespasses, that men commit Against men. Men forgive men of trespasses.
“If” you forgive men their trespasses Against you (whether or not a man forgives you for your trespasses Against men)...God will ALSO forgive your trespasses Against men.

* Less you ARE a Jew, Under the Law....men trespassing Against men was called a sin.



Because you are naturally born in Sin. (Naturally born, not knowing God, certainly can Not believe in what you do not know.)
Jesus IS the Advocate, Speaks on behalf of a Believer...until Conversion.
Once Converted, a Believer, has direct communication with God.
Once Converted, a Converted Believer, can NOT, by Gods Power IN the man, Ever again stand Against God.

John 14: (JESUS ADVOCATING)
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16: (CONVERTED no longer needs an Advocate)
[26] At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

Matt 6:
[14] For “if’ ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you...

Eph 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Trespasses AND sins...two different things.
Man against man ~ trespasses
Man against God ~ sin

1 John 3:
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Glory to God,
Taken

Hi Taken...
Could you please explain better your last sentence above:
1 John 3:9
This is generally accepted that it means CONTINUES TO SIN CONTINUALLY or LIVES IN SIN because there are other verses that show we still sin after salvation.

Also, I'm looking again in to the word TRESPASS again.

FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES
AS WE FORGIVE THOSE THAT TRESPASS AGAINST US...

I would think that the first sentence is sins against God...
Since the second sentence is sins against person.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Taken

You've brought up an interesting point....
IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A TRESPASS AND A SIN.

I'd say that as far as God is concerned, they seem to be the same.

Here's what I used in looking it up.

TRANSGRESSION
TRESPASS - Definition from the KJV Dictionary



SIN
SIN - Definition from the KJV Dictionary


I don't really see much difference.
They both seem to mean an offense against God.

P.S. Although Transgression could also be against another person,
as you've stated.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, to me, this means you are trying to save (justify) yourself. Not getting down and letting God save you.

Again he is talking about sanctification. Not justification.

Justification is a moment.
Sanctification is life-long.

HOW am I trying to save myself by obeying the commandments of God?
Don't you think we're demanded to obey God?
When did I ever say we could save ourselves?
All the works in the world will not save us if they're not done for God.
If they're done for God, they will save us.

Our faith without works is a dead faith because faith demands that we obey God.
If feeding the hungry a command?
Is visiting the sick a command?
Is forgiving others a command?

What if we don't do these things??


Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Titus 2:7-8
Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.

Jesus said he lifts up the branches and cuts away the dead and burns them. That is pruning us.

Right.
But you forgot to read the rest...see no. 6...you're referring to no. 1.

John 15:1-6
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

As far as Colossians goes. Again, What is yoru faith in? Is it in Christ, or is it in something else? (The law. Religion, The world)

Where is your faith, where is your heart? Because scripture says that is where you will go;.

Your addressing my verse posted...Colossians 2:21-23
I thank you for responding...most overlook it completely and do not respond.

The asnwer to your question...WHAT IS MY FAITH IN is found in verse 22
YET HE HAS NOW RECONCILED YOU IN HIS FLESHILY BODY THROUGH DEATH.
(in order to present us holy and blameless before God Father and beyond reproach)

So, yes, I'm depending on the work of Christ.
But verse 23 states IF I CONTINUE in the faith steadfast...
This would be my faith in Christ.

Why would you trust yourself and think there is NOTHING that can happen to you which could cause your faith to dwindle. When so many people have had life changing things happen to them and they walked away?

You do not know what will happen 20 years from now.

Are you agreeing with me?
It sounds like it.

Was I saved those 5 years?

1. Did I have eternal life? Yes
2. Did I have the HS who was given as a pledge until the day of redemption? Yes
3. Was I born again? Yes
4. Was I a child of God? yes
5. Did God leave me? No
6. Was I baptized into Christ? Yes. (Spirit baptism not water)
6. Was I chastened by the Holy Spirit? More than you can imagine. At the end, I was looking to commit suicide

I hope you're right.
I don't understand how you could be chastened by the Holy Spirit if you were involved in a life of sin....
but this is beyond my pay grade...

Decide who I would serve? Not sure what you mean by this question. We are saved by faith in God to save us. Not by our ability to serve. Again, that would be saving yourself. And would not be a grace based salvation. So once again, i am confused.

Easy...
Romans 6:16
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

We have to be slaves to one or the other power.
One is satan and the other is God.
We present ourselves to one or the other for service to that power.

Many people have died the sin unto death. Where they for whatever reason walked away and in their Tim of sin died BeFOR having the ability or time to return.

Isn't this in conflict with your stating that you were still saved when you walked away?

We should not judge their salvation. Only God knows.

I can say amen to that.
But I do think the N.T. made a point of not walking away so we could be secure in our salvation.

The prodigal son returned. He could just have easily have died before he returned. He would still be the son.

How do you reconcile that with what Jesus said?
Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.

If Jesus said the son has come to life AGAIN, doesn't this mean the son was lost while he was away from the father?

Also. I never stopped denying Jesus as my savior the whole time I was gone. I may have walked away from his blessings and his love and his guidance because of something that happened that tore me up inside. But I never became the anti-Christ Who denied Jesus (1 john)

Ah. Happily you have given us the answer:
YOU NEVER STOPPED DENYING JESUS.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, we have died in Christ for that purpose, literally make the body of sin of no effect, or rendered powerless. We cannot be controlled by our fleshy bodies any longer, unless we stop believing that's true, or for whatever reason fail to assert our spiritual life when we are in contrary circumstances (afflictions from without, sinful desires from within).

Much love!

I agree fully.
I'd say that our sin nature has been rendered "powerless".
In quotation marks because sometimes we give in to it, even in maybe the smallest ways, but to a Holy God it is still sin.
We are not controlled by the Holy Spirit...or, at least, we pay attention to the Spirit convicting us of sin - thus giving us the knowledge that we may sin, and the help to overcome the temptation. Afflictions from without or desires from within, as you've stated).

I'm sure there's more we agree on than what we do not agree on.

 

[amigo de christo]

Where are the biblical verse to support what you say above?

AND...you've changed your analogy...
analogies are a waste of time.

Only what Jesus said or what the Apostles taught is important.

Only what Jesus said or what the Apostles taught is important.

 

[amigo de christo]

Only what Jesus said or what the Apostles taught is important.

 

[amigo de christo]

Stick in that bible and learn it well .

 

[Taken]

Hi Taken...
Could you please explain better your last sentence above:
1 John 3:9
This is generally accepted that it means CONTINUES TO SIN CONTINUALLY or LIVES IN SIN because there are other verses that show we still sin after salvation.

How can you BE a NEW Creature, born of God, and SIN continually with the Power of God IN you?
What is the POINT of all the teaching of Being a New Creature, IF YOU ARE THE SAME OLD SINNING Creature?

I am not familiar with other verses that show a mans still sins AFTER having received Conversion.

Also, I'm looking again in to the word TRESPASS again.

FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES
AS WE FORGIVE THOSE THAT TRESPASS AGAINST US...

I would think that the first sentence is sins against God...
Since the second sentence is sins against person.

A man trespasses against a man.
Men lie to men...that is a trespass of a man against a man.
Men cheat men..that is a trespass of a man against a man.
Men steal from men...that is a trespass of a man against a man.

When a man trespasses AGAINST a man....
Why go ask God to forgive you? Scripture teaches to go ask the MAN to forgive you, since it is the MAN you trespasses AGAINST.

It matters not IF you do the trespassing or another man trespasses against you....IF the one who was trespasses AGAINST forgives the other...
SO ALSO WILL GOD. (He already KNOWS....He already said He would...
no asking God is necessary.)

If Men can forgive SIN, why the big deal for Scripture to notify us that Jesus Can forgive Sin?

Glory to God,
Taken