Eternal Security

[Taken]

@Taken

You've brought up an interesting point....
IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A TRESPASS AND A SIN.

I'd say that as far as God is concerned, they seem to be the same.

Here's what I used in looking it up.

TRANSGRESSION
TRESPASS - Definition from the KJV Dictionary



SIN
SIN - Definition from the KJV Dictionary


I don't really see much difference.
They both seem to mean an offense against God.

P.S. Although Transgression could also be against another person,
as you've stated.

Are you aware the Pharisees were continuously holding meeting among themselves thinking of all ways to Get Jesus out of the picture?
One of the reasons...to call for Jesus’ Death....was saying Jesus was Making Himself God. (Ie Blasphemy)
* Onee of the reasons...to call for Jesus’ Death...was Jesus was FORGIVING MEN THEIR SINS. (Ie Blasphemy)

Why do you think the Jews, with a 4,000 year history of Gods knowledge, said Only God can forgive Sins?
(The answer is because SIN is ONLY AGAINST God, thus God is the ONLY one who can FORGIVE what is AGAINST Him.)

We KNOW, men are against men....(intentionally and unintentionally)...all the time.
If you are walking and bump into someone ... (unintentionally) ... do you say, pardon me, excuse me ? You are asking them to pardon your trespass. You are asking them to excuse your trespass. You are asking for their forgiveness of your trespass.


Mark 2:
[7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Luke.5
[21] And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

How can you BE a NEW Creature, born of God, and SIN continually with the Power of God IN you?
What is the POINT of all the teaching of Being a New Creature, IF YOU ARE THE SAME OLD SINNING Creature?

I agree.
I said we cannot sin continually...
but we do sin at times...this is different than sinning continually or living a life of sin.

I am not familiar with other verses that show a mans still sins AFTER having received Conversion.

So you're one of those that believes he never sins?

A man trespasses against a man.
Men lie to men...that is a trespass of a man against a man.
Men cheat men..that is a trespass of a man against a man.
Men steal from men...that is a trespass of a man against a man.

When a man trespasses AGAINST a man....
Why go ask God to forgive you? Scripture teaches to go ask the MAN to forgive you, since it is the MAN you trespasses AGAINST.

It matters not IF you do the trespassing or another man trespasses against you....IF the one who was trespasses AGAINST forgives the other...
SO ALSO WILL GOD. (He already KNOWS....He already said He would...
no asking God is necessary.)

If Men can forgive SIN, why the big deal for Scripture to notify us that Jesus Can forgive Sin?

Glory to God,
Taken

I believe we trespass against other men...
but we can also trespass against God.
I gave a link that explains what I believe.
These are words and I just can't get too involved with this.
We'll have to agree to disagree.

P.S. I never said a man can forgive a sin in the orthodox sense....
however, if someone forgives me for something...it means I DID sin against him and he IS forgiving me for it.
Which then unhinders God to forgive me. I don't really don't understand how this functions...but we are to forgive
so God can forgive us.

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you aware the Pharisees were continuously holding meeting among themselves thinking of all ways to Get Jesus out of the picture?
One of the reasons...to call for Jesus’ Death....was saying Jesus was Making Himself God. (Ie Blasphemy)
* Onee of the reasons...to call for Jesus’ Death...was Jesus was FORGIVING MEN THEIR SINS. (Ie Blasphemy)

Why do you think the Jews, with a 4,000 year history of Gods knowledge, said Only God can forgive Sins?
(The answer is because SIN is ONLY AGAINST God, thus God is the ONLY one who can FORGIVE what is AGAINST Him.)

We KNOW, men are against men....(intentionally and unintentionally)...all the time.
If you are walking and bump into someone ... (unintentionally) ... do you say, pardon me, excuse me ? You are asking them to pardon your trespass. You are asking them to excuse your trespass. You are asking for their forgiveness of your trespass.


Mark 2:
[7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Luke.5
[21] And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Glory to God,
Taken

Of course only God can forgive sin...
read the post I just wrote to you.

 

[Taken]

I agree.
I said we cannot sin continually...
but we do sin at times...this is different than sinning continually or living a life of sin.

So you’re one of those that believes Gods power IN you failed, and you can still sin against God?

So you're one of those that believes he never sins?

That is correct. Never Again can I Stand Against God.

P.S. I never said a man can forgive a sin in the orthodox sense...

Splitting hairs. Either you do or you do not forgive men of sin.

 

[Taken]

Of course only God can forgive sin...
read the post I just wrote to you.

I read what you wrote. You contradict yourself.

 

[Cooper]

Are you aware the Pharisees were continuously holding meeting among themselves thinking of all ways to Get Jesus out of the picture?
One of the reasons...to call for Jesus’ Death....was saying Jesus was Making Himself God. (Ie Blasphemy)
* Onee of the reasons...to call for Jesus’ Death...was Jesus was FORGIVING MEN THEIR SINS. (Ie Blasphemy)

Why do you think the Jews, with a 4,000 year history of Gods knowledge, said Only God can forgive Sins?
(The answer is because SIN is ONLY AGAINST God, thus God is the ONLY one who can FORGIVE what is AGAINST Him.)

Mark 2
[7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Luke 5
[21] And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Glory to God,
Taken

I shall remember this post that tells everyone:-
1) "Jesus made himself God

2) Jesus was FORGIVING MEN THEIR SINS. (Ie Blasphemy) Why do you think the Jews, with a 4,000 year history of Gods knowledge, said Only God can forgive Sins? (The answer is because SIN is ONLY AGAINST God, thus God is the ONLY one who can FORGIVE what is AGAINST Him.)

Mark 2:
[7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Luke.5
[21] And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone." (Taken)

Jesus never sinned. What he said is true, and the truth is: JESUS IS GOD.
.

 

[Taken]

I shall remember this post that tells everyone:-
1) "Jesus made himself God

2) Jesus was FORGIVING MEN THEIR SINS. (Ie Blasphemy) Why do you think the Jews, with a 4,000 year history of Gods knowledge, said Only God can forgive Sins? (The answer is because SIN is ONLY AGAINST God, thus God is the ONLY one who can FORGIVE what is AGAINST Him.)

Mark 2:
[7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Luke.5
[21] And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone." (Taken)

Jesus never sinned. What he said is true, and the truth is: JESUS IS GOD.
.

Yes..Agree. JESUS IS GOD.

“Jesus making Himself God”.... IN CONTEXT of my post...”was a claim of the Pharisees!”
According TO Jewish religion, IT IS BLASPHEMY, for a CREATED earthly man, TO CLAIM “he IS God”.

John 5:
[17] But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Background...Roman LAW ruled IN Roman Territory. Romans took no consideration of “Jewish” Laws. If you study the text. “Jewish Pharisees”, were becoming concerned about Jesus’ Preaching & “healing miracles”. They were Afraid of the crowds gathering to Hear Jesus, Following Jesus’ teachings....Putting the Pharisees’ in a predicament of “their self-imposed clout” of the Jews yielding to their Every Dictation, becoming “undermined”, by this “Jesus” character.

John 19: (Jews pleading to the Romans to consider the Jews Law)
[7] The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

(in context of my post)... The Jews CLAIM was “FALSE and TRUE”.
False....Jesus “MADE” Himself the “Son of God”.
True.....Jesus DID SAY, God IS HIS “FATHER”.

Review the text. The Romans DID NOT, give the Jews consideration to KILL Jesus FOR “blasphemy” ...the Romans already had a LAW...that Once a year, the Jews were ALLOWED, a “prisoner” exchange. One Jew in a Roman Prison, could be “released” and another “appointed” Jew (that Jews named) would take the “released” prisoners place.
The Jews “opted” for A Prisoner, accused of murder and sentenced to DEATH, to be released....and Jesus be the exchange...which meant Jesus would be “subject” to the punishment of the Released Prisoner.

TRUE...God “has no reproduced OFFSPRING”...
TRUE...Gods WORD “coming forth” out from God..”Remains IN God”..IS God.
TRUE...God HAS NO limit to CALL things, whatever He desires.
TRUE...Gods WORD, has come forth out from God, for centuries...and been CALLED...by many different “descriptions”.
TRUE...In “those” last days...(2,000+ years ago), God sent His WORD forth out of Gods Mouth, (from Heaven to Earth). in a body God “prepared”, (in the likeness as a Jewish man)...and gave THAT BODY of Gods Word....a Specific NAME...(and additional numerous “descriptions” and “titles”).

Heb 1:
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1: (God Himself declared Gods established Relationship between God IN Heaven and Gods Word ON Earth...to be Father and Son.)
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to [/U] me a Son?

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Earthly men SAW His body. Heard Him speak. He Looked LIKE an Earthly man. He walked, talked, ate, slept, Like an Earthly man. He was Called a man. He was Called a JEWISH man. Jews Counted Him as Jewish according to Jewish Law revealed born out of a Jewish woman’s womb. A descendant-ship of the House of king David; He was Counted among Gentile mans Lawful census.
(Expressly making Jesus...LAWFUL, by Jewish Law, to sit on king Davids’ everlasting throne, entitled to inherit LAND promised to Abraham and his descendants....AND LAWFUL, by Gentile Law, men, kings, rule the nations.)
Jesus FULFILLED the LAWS...of mankind (Jewish & Gentile)...FULLY Prepared and Entitled to Claim and Sit on king Davids (everlasting Throne, that God established), Fully prepared and Entitled to Claim His Land “inheritance” that God Promised to Abraham’s Lawful and Faithful descendants.

IN CONTEXT...Jesus DID NOT “MAKE” HIMSELF GOD. Gods Word has always BEEN God, whether Gods WORD comes forth out from God, OR Not.

The Revelation IN the NT is; JESUS (the Word of God), IS THE CHRIST.
The CHRIST, “IS” expressly the “WISDOM and POWER” of God.

1 Cor 1:
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The POWER OF GOD, IS Gods Supreme, (without Beginning or Ending) SPIRIT...Expressly Gods GLORY, (that he GIVES TO NOONE).

Isa 42:
[8] I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Christ DID NOT “RECEIVE” Gods “GLORY/POWER”.... Christ “IS” Gods Glory!

Men, who SAW Jesus, and trusted to BELIEVE, Jesus “IS THE CHRIST”...
DID NOT SEE “CHRIST” (Gods Glory).... THEY SAW “JESUS” (as God intended)....AND SAW, the “REFLECTION” of Gods Glory/Power/Effects/Results, IN Jesus. And offered man could have the Same.

Any man Trusting to hear AND believe the Testimony of Scripture of Jesus and Jesus’ Appointed Apostles, is a man WHO trusts to BELIEVE the accounts of GOD sending forth out of His mouth, His WORD, in the likeness AS a man.
Any man WHO heartfully commits by his own word, to the Lord God of His belief ... that...“Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God”...
Becomes “via” Gods offering of Gods SEED and Gods Spirit of Adoption...the man himself ...a son of God...AND a “recipient” of Gods “POWER” IN that man, to forever, KEEP that man .... WITH the Lord God Almighty.
While WE can not SEE Jesus, and Men can ONLY SEE the “RESULTS” of Gods Power/Glory...WE...who have become Converted...IN Christ...Experience the “results” of Gods Power/Glory, reflected UPON us.

So AGREE...Jesus IS God.
Disagree....

Adam proved OSAS is false.

God Saved Adams Bodily Life, from dying THAT DAY he Ate of the forbidden fruit. Adams Soul, became “divided” from God...(ie dead to God) and thereafter required Salvation to become forgiven and restored unto God.

Gods Offering of Salvation, FOR a man to receive “soul salvation”, While a man is still bodily Alive, was not an Offering to OT men. THAT ^ IS the Offering of the NEW Covenant, Offered men 2,000+ years ago, (to This day) By Jesus, Through Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Cooper]

Yes..Agree. JESUS IS GOD.

“Jesus making Himself God”.... IN CONTEXT of my post...”was a claim of the Pharisees!”
According TO Jewish religion, IT IS BLASPHEMY, for a CREATED earthly man, TO CLAIM “he IS God”.

John 5:
[17] But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Background...Roman LAW ruled IN Roman Territory. Romans took no consideration of “Jewish” Laws. If you study the text. “Jewish Pharisees”, were becoming concerned about Jesus’ Preaching & “healing miracles”. They were Afraid of the crowds gathering to Hear Jesus, Following Jesus’ teachings....Putting the Pharisees’ in a predicament of “their self-imposed clout” of the Jews yielding to their Every Dictation, becoming “undermined”, by this “Jesus” character.

John 19: (Jews pleading to the Romans to consider the Jews Law)
[7] The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

(in context of my post)... The Jews CLAIM was “FALSE and TRUE”.
False....Jesus “MADE” Himself the “Son of God”.
True.....Jesus DID SAY, God IS HIS “FATHER”.

Review the text. The Romans DID NOT, give the Jews consideration to KILL Jesus FOR “blasphemy” ...the Romans already had a LAW...that Once a year, the Jews were ALLOWED, a “prisoner” exchange. One Jew in a Roman Prison, could be “released” and another “appointed” Jew (that Jews named) would take the “released” prisoners place.
The Jews “opted” for A Prisoner, accused of murder and sentenced to DEATH, to be released....and Jesus be the exchange...which meant Jesus would be “subject” to the punishment of the Released Prisoner.

TRUE...God “has no reproduced OFFSPRING”...
TRUE...Gods WORD “coming forth” out from God..”Remains IN God”..IS God.
TRUE...God HAS NO limit to CALL things, whatever He desires.
TRUE...Gods WORD, has come forth out from God, for centuries...and been CALLED...by many different “descriptions”.
TRUE...In “those” last days...(2,000+ years ago), God sent His WORD forth out of Gods Mouth, (from Heaven to Earth). in a body God “prepared”, (in the likeness as a Jewish man)...and gave THAT BODY of Gods Word....a Specific NAME...(and additional numerous “descriptions” and “titles”).

Heb 1:
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1: (God Himself declared Gods established Relationship between God IN Heaven and Gods Word ON Earth...to be Father and Son.)
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to [/U] me a Son?

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Earthly men SAW His body. Heard Him speak. He Looked LIKE an Earthly man. He walked, talked, ate, slept, Like an Earthly man. He was Called a man. He was Called a JEWISH man. Jews Counted Him as Jewish according to Jewish Law revealed born out of a Jewish woman’s womb. A descendant-ship of the House of king David; He was Counted among Gentile mans Lawful census.
(Expressly making Jesus...LAWFUL, by Jewish Law, to sit on king Davids’ everlasting throne, entitled to inherit LAND promised to Abraham and his descendants....AND LAWFUL, by Gentile Law, men, kings, rule the nations.)
Jesus FULFILLED the LAWS...of mankind (Jewish & Gentile)...FULLY Prepared and Entitled to Claim and Sit on king Davids (everlasting Throne, that God established), Fully prepared and Entitled to Claim His Land “inheritance” that God Promised to Abraham’s Lawful and Faithful descendants.

IN CONTEXT...Jesus DID NOT “MAKE” HIMSELF GOD. Gods Word has always BEEN God, whether Gods WORD comes forth out from God, OR Not.

The Revelation IN the NT is; JESUS (the Word of God), IS THE CHRIST.
The CHRIST, “IS” expressly the “WISDOM and POWER” of God.

1 Cor 1:
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The POWER OF GOD, IS Gods Supreme, (without Beginning or Ending) SPIRIT...Expressly Gods GLORY, (that he GIVES TO NOONE).

Isa 42:
[8] I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Christ DID NOT “RECEIVE” Gods “GLORY/POWER”.... Christ “IS” Gods Glory!

Men, who SAW Jesus, and trusted to BELIEVE, Jesus “IS THE CHRIST”...
DID NOT SEE “CHRIST” (Gods Glory).... THEY SAW “JESUS” (as God intended)....AND SAW, the “REFLECTION” of Gods Glory/Power/Effects/Results, IN Jesus. And offered man could have the Same.

Any man Trusting to hear AND believe the Testimony of Scripture of Jesus and Jesus’ Appointed Apostles, is a man WHO trusts to BELIEVE the accounts of GOD sending forth out of His mouth, His WORD, in the likeness AS a man.
Any man WHO heartfully commits by his own word, to the Lord God of His belief ... that...“Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God”...
Becomes “via” Gods offering of Gods SEED and Gods Spirit of Adoption...the man himself ...a son of God...AND a “recipient” of Gods “POWER” IN that man, to forever, KEEP that man .... WITH the Lord God Almighty.
While WE can not SEE Jesus, and Men can ONLY SEE the “RESULTS” of Gods Power/Glory...WE...who have become Converted...IN Christ...Experience the “results” of Gods Power/Glory, reflected UPON us.

So AGREE...Jesus IS God.
Disagree....


God Saved Adams Bodily Life, from dying THAT DAY he Ate of the forbidden fruit. Adams Soul, became “divided” from God...(ie dead to God) and thereafter required Salvation to become forgiven and restored unto God.

Gods Offering of Salvation, FOR a man to receive “soul salvation”, While a man is still bodily Alive, was not an Offering to OT men. THAT ^ IS the Offering of the NEW Covenant, Offered men 2,000+ years ago, (to This day) By Jesus, Through Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken

Nice read. I must have misunderstood you, for which I am truly sorry. By the way, just to say, I get put off by long posts, please do not be offended.

I have to disagree about Adam, though. The sinner does not die the day they sin. There wouldn't be anyone left in the world. Adam still lived physically, but was thrust out from the presence of the Lord. That seems pretty final to me, especially as there were two angels preventing his return. Blessings.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Justification is a moment.
Sanctification is life-long.

Before I go any further. I want you to look at what you said.

Justification. The term is a legal term, it means to be declaired innocent of wrong doing. In the greek, it is actually the same word also translated righteous. I am righteous (declaired innocent or justified) by the blood of christ It is a one time, done deal. Nothing can take that away from me, Because I could not earn it. It was paid in full on the cross.

I am being sanctified. A lifelong project of God working in me to help me grow. While this is all gods work, Unlike justification. In which I can not in any way help myself (i must be like the tax collector) sanctification take me reacting to Gods work in a way that I grow in him as I trust him more and more.

Justification is not dependent on how sanctified I become. Many people (like paul) will become super mature believers, and will recieve great reward as they have produced much fruit. Others. May not recieve much if any reward (wood hay and straw) because they did not allow God to work much in their lives, they remained babes in christ, who needed fed milk. Because they never grew. But as Paul says, even though after their works are tried by fire. And all they have is ash. They were still saved, even as through fire. (Imagine a man running through fire to escape his burning house and all he has is the clothes on his back) which I believe was the image paul was trying to portray.

As you read my responses to your questions Please not I answer in a way it appears you are discussing sanctification. Not justification. So please bear with me in my answers and do not take them as attacking you. As that is the last thing I would want to do.

Sadly. Same take it as an insult. And I am not trying to do that to you brother..

HOW am I trying to save myself by obeying the commandments of God?

Are you obeying in order to make sure you will be saved in the end. Or because you have been justified completely and out of appreciation and love you are obedient?

Obeying commands should have no bearing on ones justification. God requires perfection (gal 3) if we are going to try to be saved by obedience.

Don't you think we're demanded to obey God?

What is Gods standard of perfection for justification? Is it not perfect? Can you meet that standard?

We’re you justified Freely? or are you still trying to be justified?

I am not against obedience. I am discussing the ability to save ourself by obedience.

When did I ever say we could save ourselves?

Well from the sounds of your first two questions. One must ask. And did you not say we could lose salvation? How can you lose something you could never earn? Unless you had to earn it?

And why are you talking about obedience when we are discussing salvation?

I hope you can see why I am questioning you and tryign to find out what you really believe instead of assuming I know..

All the works in the world will not save us if they're not done for God.

If they're done for God, they will save us.[/quote]
Is this not teaching works? Is this not saying if we do works for God they will justify us and rescue us from the penalty of sin? (Remember that is the context of our conversation. Rescue from the penalty of sin, or salvation) but if we do works not for God they will not save us?

Our faith without works is a dead faith because faith demands that we obey God.

Um no.

A claimed faith which has no works is dead. A true faith does not have to worry about works, It will work

A licentious, believe only person claims to have faith. But it dead, its lifeless. It is seen before men as void of works. But God knows what kind of faith a person has the moment they come to him. You can fool a man, but you can not fool God. Paul was against legalism, James spoke against licentious easy believism. They did not contradict each other.

If feeding the hungry a command?
Is visiting the sick a command?
Is forgiving others a command?

What if we don't do these things??

Again, What is the standard? Is it not perfection? Did jesus not say, be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect? Have you met that standard? I have not. I can feed the poor. Visit the sick and forgive others all I want. It will not make God forgive one sin I ever commited.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Titus 2:7-8
Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.

Once again, Your discussing the works of sanctification here.

Our discussion s about eternal salvation or justification. Why are you talking about works of Justification?

I am going to break this post into two responses It gets to long and I do not like long posts. They are hard to go through.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right.
But you forgot to read the rest...see no. 6...you're referring to no. 1.

John 15:1-6
1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

I pray you study this passage more. Jesus is talking to people who understand what a winedresser does. There are vines that do not produce fruit. What the vinedresser does is he “LIFTS UP” the branches that are on the ground, because they are being chocked. He then cuts off the dead branches and burns them. Sadly, the translation you have given does not interpret the word which means to raise or lift up and makes it say take away. A vinedresser Dow’s not take away branches that can produce fruit. It lifts them up and cuts the dead spots out.

Jesus also gives the context. Apart from me you can DO NOTHING.

He is talking about working here. About sanctification. He is not talking about being saved here.

Sadly this passage has been used by many to proclaim salvation can be lost. When it is not talking about salvation.

Your addressing my verse posted...Colossians 2:21-23
I thank you for responding...most overlook it completely and do not respond.

The asnwer to your question...WHAT IS MY FAITH IN is found in verse 22
YET HE HAS NOW RECONCILED YOU IN HIS FLESHILY BODY THROUGH DEATH.
(in order to present us holy and blameless before God Father and beyond reproach)

So, yes, I'm depending on the work of Christ.
But verse 23 states IF I CONTINUE in the faith steadfast...
This would be my faith in Christ.

Yes, If you continue

Many people have an emotional connection. They say a sinners prayer. And play the game, and eventually, they fall off. The power they thought they saw was not real. The faith was not real. They realise they truely had faith in something else (the world. Religion, the law) and not in christ.

And they leave as people who now deny christ (an antichrist) And as john said, they were never of us. If they were of us they never would have left..

You can not tell a persons salvation. I can not tell if you are saved, You can not tell if I am saved. B it God knows.. Paul preaches to a group of people/ People who are truly saved, people who are there as not saved, but walking like they are. And people who are impostors. He addresses them all. “If you continue” is addressed to those who have not yet fully repented and come to faith.

Are you agreeing with me?
It sounds like it.

As far as being able to lose salvation (eternal life)

No.

I hope you're right.
I don't understand how you could be chastened by the Holy Spirit if you were involved in a life of sin....
but this is beyond my pay grade...

Why would I be chastened by the HS if I was not in sin? I don’t understand why you would think the HS would discipline a believer who is not sinning.

I think you may need to study what living in sin is. A non believers lives in sin, it is all they know. They can do no good.

Either way. I know I am right. Even the prodigal did not stop being a son. His father blood ran through him. You can’t take that away,

The blood of Jesus is in my veins, You can’t take that away. I have been born again by incorruptible seed.

[/quote]

Easy...
Romans 6:16
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

We have to be slaves to one or the other power.
One is satan and the other is God.
We present ourselves to one or the other for service to that power.

Again, this is talking about sanctification. Not justification. I am not sure why you are trying to preach obedience. I am not against obedient.

Again, our topic is justification. Why are you talking about sanctification?

Isn't this in conflict with your stating that you were still saved when you walked away?

Is this not stating I had to earn my salvation by continuing to walk in christ? And that when I walked away and struggled with a few sin areas, I lost my salvation because I stopped earning it?

I hope you can start to see my problem. On the one hand you claim you are not teaching we have to earn our salvation. But this whole post appears to be you telling me how I need to earn my salvation by obedience.

Can you not see why I am saying this? I am not trying to judge you my friend. Just trying to show you what I see.

I can say amen to that.

Ok.. But did you not just question my salvation as a prodigal son? I hear you say amen. But do you really believe it?

But I do think the N.T. made a point of not walking away so we could be secure in our salvation.

That again would be trying to earn your salvation by not walking away.

We earn a wage, We earn a wage by continuing to go to wrk every day and doing the work our bosses give us to do.

If we stop doing the work or walk away. We stop earning our wage and will not be paid.

Salvation is a gift.

If I can lose the “gift” because I stop working or walk away. The gift stops being a gift. And becomes a wage.

If I try to work, I will earn the wage I deserve. That wage will be death. Because I am indebt4ed to god to be perfect. I can not live up to that standard.

How do you reconcile that with what Jesus said?
Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost, and has been found.

If Jesus said the son has come to life AGAIN, doesn't this mean the son was lost while he was away from the father?

Did he not say THIS SON OF MINE?

He did not call him, My enemy was dead, and now he is alive
He did not say this stranger was dead to me, and now is alive
He said my son

He never stopped being the son

Was he was dead to what his fathers blessings, His love and his work in his life. He was still the son.

Ah. Happily you have given us the answer:
YOU NEVER STOPPED DENYING JESUS.

Why thank you.

But then again, lets go back to what you said earlier about how I was saved when I was committing some sins..

 

[Taken]

Nice read. I must have misunderstood you, for which I am truly sorry. By the way, just to say, I get put off by long posts, please do not be offended.

I have to disagree about Adam, though. The sinner does not die the day they sin. Adam still lived, but was thrust out from the presence of the Lord. That seems pretty final to me, especially as there were two angels preventing his return. Blessings.

Eh, I get put off by long posts too. lol On issues of continual and repeated disagreements, I do tend to be precise as possible.
No apology necessary. All is good.

Death is not, restricted to a physical cession of life. Spiritually, any man’s soul that is Against God, is Spiritually experiencing A Death, ie separation from God. That was the Death Adam experienced. His flesh body, being the cause of his souls sin...His “bodily sin” was forgiven, as we are informed, God “makes them clothes”, which is later revealed, God “covers” our forgiven sin, that God neither sees or remembers the forgiven sin we “had” against Him.
Adam continued bodily living, and we know at the end of Adams physical life, his soul was saved.(as was the method of receiving salvation, BEFORE Jesus’ arrived with a NEW Covenant). We know Adam was saved, because Scripture notifies us Adam was called “a son of God”. <—- which THAT applies to Saved Earthly men.
Since all earthly men (except Adam) are born in sin, all earthly body’s are appointed to “once” die .

We have been “offered” “crucifixion” with Christ, to die “with” Him, while yet our body remains living. We have been “offered”, to spiritually Live IN Christ Jesus’ risen body...until the day our own body’s are risen up, “UN Corrupted”.
OT men were NOT given that Offering.
OT’s men’s offering was, Soul salvation, AFTER Bodily death.

Example: which applies to bodily alive men, being called “dead”, having been “against” God, but who accepted Gods Offering & Forgiveness via believing Gods Word and heartfully declaring their belief...thus received Gods works of “forgiveness, soul restored ie saved, and quickening, ie spirit born again”.

Eph 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Glory to God,
God Bless,
Taken

 

[marks]

I'm sure there's more we agree on than what we do not agree on.

So far the only thing I'm really seeing that we disagree about is what Justification is exactly.

I believe our justification in Christ has made the body dead, has created a new spirit, one that is born from God, who now lives in this shell of the dead man. The dead man's imprint is on this shell, and that's what we have to deal with. We use the dead man's brain to think with, but it keeps wanting to think the dead man's way.

C.S. Lewis compared it to piloting a ship. You need a skilled pilot, AND a sound ship. I'm more like an unskilled pilot with a wrecked ship.

We are alive in Christ, not in flesh. As He is, so are we in this world. We live in Christ, but our bodies are that ship we use to navigate this world.

I believe we are alive from the dead, in union with God, made righteous and holy, and are in the process of learning how to overcome our fleshy dead mind with our living spirit Christ mind on a more consistent basis.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Eh, I get put off by long posts too. lol On issues of continual and repeated disagreements, I do tend to be precise as possible.
No apology necessary. All is good.

Death is not, restricted to a physical cession of life. Spiritually, any man’s soul that is Against God, is Spiritually experiencing A Death, ie separation from God. That was the Death Adam experienced. His flesh body, being the cause of his souls sin...His “bodily sin” was forgiven, as we are informed, God “makes them clothes”, which is later revealed, God “covers” our forgiven sin, that God neither sees or remembers the forgiven sin we “had” against Him.
Adam continued bodily living, and we know at the end of Adams physical life, his soul was saved.(as was the method of receiving salvation, BEFORE Jesus’ arrived with a NEW Covenant). We know Adam was saved, because Scripture notifies us Adam was called “a son of God”. <—- which THAT applies to Saved Earthly men.
Since all earthly men (except Adam) are born in sin, all earthly body’s are appointed to “once” die .

We have been “offered” “crucifixion” with Christ, to die “with” Him, while yet our body remains living. We have been “offered”, to spiritually Live IN Christ Jesus’ risen body...until the day our own body’s are risen up, “UN Corrupted”.
OT men were NOT given that Offering.
OT’s men’s offering was, Soul salvation, AFTER Bodily death.

Example: which applies to bodily alive men, being called “dead”, having been “against” God, but who accepted Gods Offering & Forgiveness via believing Gods Word and heartfully declaring their belief...thus received Gods works of “forgiveness, soul restored ie saved, and quickening, ie spirit born again”.

Eph 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Glory to God,
God Bless,
Taken

@Taken Ephesians 2 is a tremendous chapter; so is Romans 8, with much assurance for the believer.

 

[marks]

I shall remember this post that tells everyone:-
1) "Jesus made himself God

2) Jesus was FORGIVING MEN THEIR SINS. (Ie Blasphemy) Why do you think the Jews, with a 4,000 year history of Gods knowledge, said Only God can forgive Sins? (The answer is because SIN is ONLY AGAINST God, thus God is the ONLY one who can FORGIVE what is AGAINST Him.)

Mark 2:
[7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Luke.5
[21] And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone." (Taken)

Jesus never sinned. What he said is true, and the truth is: JESUS IS GOD.
.

And so that you can know the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, he said to the man, "get up, take up your bed . . ." His offered His miraculous power as evidence of Who He is.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

Eh, I get put off by long posts too. lol On issues of continual and repeated disagreements, I do tend to be precise as possible.
No apology necessary. All is good.

Death is not, restricted to a physical cession of life. Spiritually, any man’s soul that is Against God, is Spiritually experiencing A Death, ie separation from God. That was the Death Adam experienced. His flesh body, being the cause of his souls sin...His “bodily sin” was forgiven, as we are informed, God “makes them clothes”, which is later revealed, God “covers” our forgiven sin, that God neither sees or remembers the forgiven sin we “had” against Him.
Adam continued bodily living, and we know at the end of Adams physical life, his soul was saved.(as was the method of receiving salvation, BEFORE Jesus’ arrived with a NEW Covenant). We know Adam was saved, because Scripture notifies us Adam was called “a son of God”. <—- which THAT applies to Saved Earthly men.
Since all earthly men (except Adam) are born in sin, all earthly body’s are appointed to “once” die .

We have been “offered” “crucifixion” with Christ, to die “with” Him, while yet our body remains living. We have been “offered”, to spiritually Live IN Christ Jesus’ risen body...until the day our own body’s are risen up, “UN Corrupted”.
OT men were NOT given that Offering.
OT’s men’s offering was, Soul salvation, AFTER Bodily death.

Example: which applies to bodily alive men, being called “dead”, having been “against” God, but who accepted Gods Offering & Forgiveness via believing Gods Word and heartfully declaring their belief...thus received Gods works of “forgiveness, soul restored ie saved, and quickening, ie spirit born again”.

Eph 2:
[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Glory to God,
God Bless,
Taken

@Taken Ephesians 2 is a tremendous chapter; so is Romans 8, with much assurance for the believer.

If we believe we will be raised from the dead. We have eternal security. Period.

@dad 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 8 are tremendously assuring to the believer....

 

[Cooper]

And so that you can know the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins, he said to the man, "get up, take up your bed . . ." He offered His miraculous power as evidence of Who He is.

"The Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath." Mat 12:8

No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Joh_3:13

There is something very special about the three words "Son of man" but its significance escapes me.
.

 

[dad]

@Taken Ephesians 2 is a tremendous chapter; so is Romans 8, with much assurance for the believer.

@dad 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 8 are tremendously assuring to the believer....

Yes. I think preachers and teachers should be clear about that.

 

[dad]

"The Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath." Mat 12:8

No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Joh_3:13

There is something very special about the three words "Son of man" but its significance escapes me.
.

Is that not a title referring to how God became a man, by being born here?

 

[Taken]

Before I go any further. I want you to look at what you said.

Justification. The term is a legal term, it means to be declaired innocent of wrong doing.

No US Judge, declares a man NOT CONVICTED of an accused crime...
“INNOCENT”. They ONLY declare...”guilty or not guilty”.

Justification is the lack of finding “guilt”, and thus they are “Justified” to release the individual without negative “consequences”

@Taken Ephesians 2 is a tremendous chapter; so is Romans 8, with much assurance for the believer.

Agree.

 

[farouk]

No US Judge, declares a man NOT CONVICTED of an accused crime...
“INNOCENT”. They ONLY declare...”guilty or not guilty”.

Justification is the lack of finding “guilt”, and thus they are “Justified” to release the individual without negative “consequences”


Agree.

An important aspect of justification is about imputed righteousness. 1 Corinthians 1.30.