Every branch that bears fruit is pruned. - John 15
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Firs; a disciple is different than a believer. It is the next stage.
Second you are saying that salvation is by grace through faith and your works- that is so wrong.
Third: someone who is saved will continue- we are a new creature with a new heart, new mind, new desire and new destiny.
Fourth until the Lord calls His children home, we are unlearning the old ways and learning the new ways (Romans 12 1-3)
As for Luke 13- Jesus answered this twice:
Matthew 13:24-30
King James Version
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 7:22-24
King James Version
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And then John:
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Why give glory to a demonic doctrine when the bible clearly shows that those who appeared to be belioevers were in fact not!
Jesus pointed out they believed here
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
Where is this?
As Jesus said, John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed As John said,
|
As Hebrews said,
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
As Peter said,
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall
2 Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Perfect
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
In your words
Jesus knows His own and gives them eternal life and they shall never perish, neither shall any man (including yourself) pluck you out of His hands.
Both of these have nothing to do with salvation.
Heb. 3 has to do with entering into rest and specifically the promised land- not being saved or lost.
Peter is about not falling. As it is written, though the righteous stumble, they shall not fall.
Also as Paul wrote:
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Is this your rebuttal to Jesus words?
No, those are not my own words, I quoted them but they are not mine.
And the very verse you believe are mine words (but are Paul's) and with which you appear to disagree with in the very context of the sure foundation (2 Ti 2:19) actually says, "the Lord knoweth them that are his" lets look more closely.
| Jesus said, Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. These many coming in Jesus own name saying Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Behind which I posted 2 Ti 2:19 2 Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. Again, these are not my words but Paul's, but lets return to Matt 7:24 Matt 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock |
You believe someone can have an evil heart of unbelief which departs from the living God have salvation?
When it says here,
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
How do you recconcile this?
Behold
Well-Known Member
If they were born again, and later developed a faith crisis or something happened that ruined their faith.....then that happened after they were born again.. So, it has no effect on their Salvation, as all of that is going on in their HEAD....while they are still born again.
You can't stop being born again, if you later have an attitude problem, or a faith crisis, or a behavior issue.
See, its : = "God who began Salvation (in the born again)... will HIMSELF be faithful to complete it".
Chrisitans are not trying to complete Salvation, as it was already completed by Jesus 2000 yrs ago on The Cross for them.
Also, @Ronald Nolette
When I posted
To these Jews who believed on him, Jesus said,
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him,
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed
You had replied,
Firs; a disciple is different than a believer.
But I had also posted
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back,
and walked no more with him.
Believers (on Jesus) and disciples
(of Jesus) are both mentioned in those verses.
Jesus tells us there are those which believed for just awhile and fall away
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy;
and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
And Hebrews is addressing the brethren here in this
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief,
in departing from the living God.
Hebrews also tells us
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end
When I posted
To these Jews who believed on him, Jesus said,
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him,
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed
You had replied,
Firs; a disciple is different than a believer.
But I had also posted
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back,
and walked no more with him.
Believers (on Jesus) and disciples
(of Jesus) are both mentioned in those verses.
Jesus tells us there are those which believed for just awhile and fall away
Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy;
and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
And Hebrews is addressing the brethren here in this
Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief,
in departing from the living God.
Hebrews also tells us
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end
Behold
Well-Known Member
This verse is not speaking explicitly about Salvation, because Salvation is by FAITH.
And the way you know it......is, we are made partakers of : "The Gift of SALVATION", once we Give God our Faith in Christ.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Your verse is speaking about becoming a disciple......not A Christian.......as you can't become a Christian, until CHRIST has died on The Cross, and He hadn't died on The Cross, yet, when He was talking to those unsaved JEWS.
John also tells us to abide in the doctrine of Christ
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (Deut 18:18-19)
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (Deut 18:18-19)
Behold
Well-Known Member
Its possible to backslide.... and to lose your faith.
But you can't lose your Salvation.....because God has already given it to the Believer, and they are now "in Christ" .. "one with God".
What a lot of Christians and religious fakirs never understand about Salvation, is that your FAITH didn't save you.
So, because they dont understand this, they are trusting in Faith, instead of trusting in CHRIST...so they are always talking about losing faith, keeping faith....holding unto faith........ as if Faith saved them or keeps them saved.
It didnt., and it can't.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The "doctrine of Christ'... regarding SALVATION ..is "Justification by Faith, without works or deeds of the Law".
The "Doctrine of Christ regarding SALVATiON.... is .the understanding of how and why a person becomes a "new Creation in Christ".
Christians will never face God's Wrath, because Jesus has already received it for them, in their Place, on The Cross.
And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch (Acts 11:26)
Disciples = Christians (thats what they were called), the same are followers of Christ
Jesus said,
Matt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me,
is not worthy of me.
Of these disciples here it says
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back,
and walked no more with him.
Disciples = Christians (thats what they were called), the same are followers of Christ
Jesus said,
Matt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me,
is not worthy of me.
Of these disciples here it says
John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back,
and walked no more with him.
The only enduring fruit in a person’s life is the spiritual growth cultivated through Christ Yeshua. It is through the individual’s choice to serve and seek Yahavah that Yeshua works within them—making them righteous not by their own merit, but through His righteousness and the blood He shed on the cross.
When Yeshua spoke of eating His flesh and drinking His blood, He was revealing a profound spiritual truth. Many turned away from Him at that moment, unable to grasp the depth of what He was offering: a call to fully partake in His life, sacrifice, and covenant.
When Yeshua spoke of eating His flesh and drinking His blood, He was revealing a profound spiritual truth. Many turned away from Him at that moment, unable to grasp the depth of what He was offering: a call to fully partake in His life, sacrifice, and covenant.
The gospel is the power of God unto salvation
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Which was preached to the Jews first
Acts 3:26 Unto you (Jews) first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
And then to the Gentiles and so both here
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Saying,
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
And so to purify unto himself a peculiar people, as Paul had said, "Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (in 2Cr 7:1, and the like in Ephes 4:24, James 1:21, 1 Thes 4:7, and in Heb 12:14 lastly) which tells us without which (holiness) no man shall see the Lord.
The context is the gospel of our salvation here as well, since it includes the words, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation" in respects to the word spoken by the Lord and them which heard him.
Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Again, the gospel of Christ it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, the same is mentioned here.
Hebrews 4:1-3 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
And again here it says, that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-9 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
And we know this because it ends with...
(9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Thorns and briers is rejected, these are not fruit
Which is what should also accompany our common salvation.
Since the gospel bringeth forth fruit as Paul tells us (in Col 1:6) as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and "knew the grace of God in truth"
Whereas Jude writes concerning our common salvation, to warn of ungodly men which turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness.
Jude 1:3-5 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Edit: typos
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Which was preached to the Jews first
Acts 3:26 Unto you (Jews) first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
And then to the Gentiles and so both here
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Saying,
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
And so to purify unto himself a peculiar people, as Paul had said, "Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (in 2Cr 7:1, and the like in Ephes 4:24, James 1:21, 1 Thes 4:7, and in Heb 12:14 lastly) which tells us without which (holiness) no man shall see the Lord.
The context is the gospel of our salvation here as well, since it includes the words, "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation" in respects to the word spoken by the Lord and them which heard him.
Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Again, the gospel of Christ it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, the same is mentioned here.
Hebrews 4:1-3 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
And again here it says, that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:4-9 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
And we know this because it ends with...
(9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Thorns and briers is rejected, these are not fruit
Which is what should also accompany our common salvation.
Since the gospel bringeth forth fruit as Paul tells us (in Col 1:6) as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and "knew the grace of God in truth"
Whereas Jude writes concerning our common salvation, to warn of ungodly men which turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness.
Jude 1:3-5 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Edit: typos
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No, it just shows you how belief does not make someone a believer. In trhe Greek there are differing levels of belief. And the devils do not have saving belief.
Now look, Jesus said these were never His in Matthew- they were never saved.
Is that your answer to Jesus words?
Which are they which still worked iniquity
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well you post lots of verses and aLL OF THEM ARE TRUE WHEN A PERSON BECOMES A CHILD OF gOD WHICH MAKES THEM ETERNALLY SECURE.
I showed you the passages that concern people who appear to be believers but from divine perspective were never believers.
Remember what Paul said :
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Not might be saved or could be saved if all your man made demands are met. He said you SHALL be saved.
I am truly sorry that you believe that Jesus may not have died and paid the penalty for all your sins.
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
To us run of the mill Christians unified with Christ, he's not a vine, rather,
he's a shepherd; in point of fact the good shepherd. (John 10)
Jesus has been tasked with managing a number of special sheep.
● John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me
Jesus' Father expects His son to be conscientious about the sheep's safety.
● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.
Jesus never fails to give the One what He wants.
● John 4:34 . . My food is to do the will of the One who sent me.
● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.
Now the thing is: were Jesus to lose even one of the sheep that his Father
entrusted to his care-- just one --then Jesus would not be able to say that
he "always" pleases the One who sent him. He could say that he pleases the
One most of the time, but certainly not always without fail.
People are actually casting a nay vote in regard to Jesus' competence when
they insist it's possible for him to lose some of the sheep that his Father
gave him. Were Christ an ordinary guy I would be inclined to agree with the
skeptics; but his miracles demonstrate that the good shepherd has all the
powers and abilities of the supreme being at his disposal to insure he
succeeds at keeping the sheep right where his Father wants them kept.
● John 10:9 . . I am the door; whoever enters through me shall be saved.
Were Christ an ordinary guy; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be saved" no,
he'd have to tone it down a bit and say shall be safer instead of shall be
saved. That would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says
shall be saved, he's claiming a 0.0% failure rate. That's how confident the
good shepherd is that he will lose nothing of the sheep given to him.
So then, I propose that the true vine spoken of by John 15:1 isn't talking
about Christ as the good shepherd when in reality it's talking about Christ as
the true Israel, and we know from passages like Rom 9:6 that not all
identified as Israel are in fact Israel. Well, it appears to me that those are
very likely the dead wood Jesus was talking about in John 15:6.
NOTE: The corporate people of Israel are often depicted as a vine in the old
testament. Jesus-- as Abraham's, Isaac's. and Jacob's ultimate descendant
--would quite naturally be the people's central figure just as the patriarchs
themselves were at one time. (Gal 3:16)
_
To us run of the mill Christians unified with Christ, he's not a vine, rather,
he's a shepherd; in point of fact the good shepherd. (John 10)
Jesus has been tasked with managing a number of special sheep.
● John 10:29 . . My sheep . . my Father gave them to me
Jesus' Father expects His son to be conscientious about the sheep's safety.
● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.
Jesus never fails to give the One what He wants.
● John 4:34 . . My food is to do the will of the One who sent me.
● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.
Now the thing is: were Jesus to lose even one of the sheep that his Father
entrusted to his care-- just one --then Jesus would not be able to say that
he "always" pleases the One who sent him. He could say that he pleases the
One most of the time, but certainly not always without fail.
People are actually casting a nay vote in regard to Jesus' competence when
they insist it's possible for him to lose some of the sheep that his Father
gave him. Were Christ an ordinary guy I would be inclined to agree with the
skeptics; but his miracles demonstrate that the good shepherd has all the
powers and abilities of the supreme being at his disposal to insure he
succeeds at keeping the sheep right where his Father wants them kept.
● John 10:9 . . I am the door; whoever enters through me shall be saved.
Were Christ an ordinary guy; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be saved" no,
he'd have to tone it down a bit and say shall be safer instead of shall be
saved. That would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says
shall be saved, he's claiming a 0.0% failure rate. That's how confident the
good shepherd is that he will lose nothing of the sheep given to him.
So then, I propose that the true vine spoken of by John 15:1 isn't talking
about Christ as the good shepherd when in reality it's talking about Christ as
the true Israel, and we know from passages like Rom 9:6 that not all
identified as Israel are in fact Israel. Well, it appears to me that those are
very likely the dead wood Jesus was talking about in John 15:6.
NOTE: The corporate people of Israel are often depicted as a vine in the old
testament. Jesus-- as Abraham's, Isaac's. and Jacob's ultimate descendant
--would quite naturally be the people's central figure just as the patriarchs
themselves were at one time. (Gal 3:16)
_
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Why resort to lies? Do you believe lying is sinful and that Jesus encourages you to do that?
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