EZ 38-39 TIMELINE

[Dave L]

No, Rev 12:1-5 is referring to corporate entities, Israel, the body of Christ and the Antichrist system. The word harpazo in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5 is referring to the rapture of the church. Lack of knowledge is the drug of death.

Ok, so there's three stages to the body of Christ when discussing end times events. The scriptures below are just a collection of what I've gathered.

More than likely, there is probably more scriptures that coincide with the three stages and the travail of the body through cross reference. These passages are just the basics for now, but as long as we have the format or the outline it can make algebra look like addition.

1. Corporate conception of the church - Acts 2:1-4/Matt 1:20 (Example of Holy Spirit conception)
2. Individual conception in the believer - John 3:16, Rom 10:9, Eph 1:13-14 (Seed Gal 3:19, Gal 3:29, 1Pe 1:23, 1Jo 3:9)
3. Corporate birth of the church - 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:13-18, Rev 12:5

After the conception of the church at Pentecost, whenever someone comes to faith in Christ that person gets placed into the body of Christ. For 2,000 years, His body has been in gestation growing ever so larger until the body gets to what is called a full term pregnancy. Full term is anywhere between 37 to 42 weeks, via Jupiter in the body of Virgo for 42 weeks completing the Rev 12:1-5 great sign in its awesome perfection and form.

God is using the human conception/gestation/birth story to describe His story of the divinity of the church age. Just as a child's head comes out first prior to the body, so it is with Jesus (the head of the church) ascending to heaven first prior to the body, Col 1:18...

Isa 53:11 - Jesus body in travail
Rom 8:22-25 - the body of Christ groans for their resurrected bodies
1 Cor 15:8 - Paul feels abnormally born without resurrected body
1 Cor 15:50-54/2 Cor 5:1-5 - Mortal/Immortal/Swallowed up
2 Cor 5:1-5 - the body of Christ groans for their resurrected bodies
Gal 4:19 - Paul relates travail in birth to not being formed yet

Hopefully, I've made this as easy as possible to discern. This is probably one of the most complex topics in relation to end times, but once it clicks in your mind and you see the bigger picture you will see it like a blind man opening his eyes for the first time.

Sometimes tradition isn't always right, Jhn 20:29. God bless.

Jesus and the church are Israel. The broken off unbelievers calling themselves "Israel" are not. God will reattach any of them back into Israel through faith in Christ (Romans 11).

 

[Dave L]

My experience with scripture is that one prophet saw cascading events without gaps in their unfolding, while other OT Prophets were shown that there were prescribed gaps between those same unfolding events.

In the Daniel 2 statue prophecy Daniel does not indicate that there was a time gap between the third and the fourth Segment however, the language may indicate through the element of element of surprise that a fourth segment would follow the third segment.

Jeremiah nineteen years later in speaking about the land of the Chaldeans and the unfolding future events in Babylon, in chapter 50, indicated that there was a time gap between the events of the third and the fourth segment of around two ages in duration. Sadly, the scholars of previous times did not see these time periods/gaps and adopted a "technical interpretation" which implied a completely different understanding to the context of respective prophecy where they changed a finite time period into an infinite time period and effectively hid the respective time prophecy gaps from sight.

Now that the Statue prophecy is drawing to a conclusion, it is possible, now knowing the unfolding history of the land of the Chaldeans, to discern this gap in the Statue prophecy that Jeremiah spoke of.

Shalom

The "gap" came from Dispensationalism. They built an entire scheme, all false, around it when scripture never mentions a gap in the first place.

 

[Jay Ross]

The "gap" came from Dispensationalism. They built an entire scheme, all false, around it when scripture never mentions a gap in the first place.

Dave, I know that there is a two age gap specifically mentioned in Jeremiah 50:39, but it has been hidden by the tradition of a claimed technical interpretation.

Also History and Rev 16:19 backs up this point of view. History tells us that the Greek General, or his successor, that obtained rule over the Land of the Chaldeans, dismantled the utilities of the cities of the land and carted them off to other areas within his control, along with the inhabitants and that in 1926, the land of the Chaldeans was once more remember when it a country was decreed within its borders.

By making your claim without providing scholarly proof of your understanding does not make what you are claiming true.

Shalom

 

[Dave L]

Dave, I know that there is a two age gap specifically mentioned in Jeremiah 50:39, but it has been hidden by the tradition of a claimed technical interpretation.

Also History and Rev 16:19 backs up this point of view. History tells us that the Greek General that obtained the Land of the Chaldeans, dismantled the utilities of the cities of the land and carted them off to other areas within his control, along with the inhabitants and that in 1926, the land of the Chaldeans was once more remember when it a country was decreed within its borders.

By making your claim without providing scholarly proof of your understanding does not make what you are claiming true.

Shalom

There is no gap mentioned in scripture calling for thousands of years between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks. What this means, is that you sever the 70th week from the bible. And then return to the bible lifting "proof texts" to support your hypothesis. And then you rewrite ancient prophecies and conditions into the future as if a Gap was actually there.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, I know that there is a two age gap specifically mentioned in Jeremiah 50:39, but it has been hidden by the tradition of a claimed technical interpretation.

Also History and Rev 16:19 backs up this point of view. History tells us that the Greek General, or his successor, that obtained rule over the Land of the Chaldeans, dismantled the utilities of the cities of the land and carted them off to other areas within his control, along with the inhabitants and that in 1926, the land of the Chaldeans was once more remember when it a country was decreed within its borders.

By making your claim without providing scholarly proof of your understanding does not make what you are claiming true.

Shalom

If you begin with Jesus and his description of the Kingdom being spiritual and not physical, all of what you say dissipates into thin air.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Jesus and the church are Israel. The broken off unbelievers calling themselves "Israel" are not. God will reattach any of them back into Israel through faith in Christ (Romans 11).

The body of Christ is spiritual Israel. The nation Israel is still in unbelief living in spiritual blindness. Rev 12:5 harpazo is for the body of Christ with the 1260 days in Rev 12:6, 14. It is coming, in what year? Nobody knows.

 

[Vexatious]

Jesus said his kingdom isn't of this world. Yet, Dispies keep insisting it is of this world, then they chant it hasn't happened yet and therefor Christians are absurd for thinking Jesus has established his kingdom. And, then they whine that Christians are spiritualizing the kingdom.

 

[Dave L]

The body of Christ is spiritual Israel. The nation Israel is still in unbelief living in spiritual blindness. Rev 12:5 harpazo is for the body of Christ with the 1260 days in Rev 12:6, 14. It is coming, in what year? Nobody knows.

The nation of Israel is not biblical Israel. When Christ abolished circumcision on the cross, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew (religion) or a physical member of Israel. If any accept Christ, God will reattach them to Israel who is Christ according to the NT(Romans 11).

 

[Enoch111]

The nation of Israel is not biblical Israel. When Christ abolished circumcision on the cross, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew (religion) or a physical member of Israel.

If that is true, then we would not have this passage AFTER the Cross:

REVELATION 7
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

So we have another example of the absurdity of Preterism in your post.

 

[Dave L]

If that is true, then we would not have this passage AFTER the Cross:

REVELATION 7
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

So we have another example of the absurdity of Preterism in your post.

All of the first century church was Israeli and God grafter believing gentiles into this. The Church IS Israel. BTW, I'm Amillennial as Jesus was, and not Preterist.

 

[Jay Ross]

There is no gap mentioned in scripture calling for thousands of years between Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks. What this means, is that you sever the 70th week from the bible. And then return to the bible lifting "proof texts" to support your hypothesis. And then you rewrite ancient prophecies and conditions into the future as if a Gap was actually there.

Sorry Dave, without any supporting evidence for your theory, you are just expressing your opinion. The theory that you are relying on is that the five prophecies given in Daniel 9:24-27 are dependant and inter related with one another.

In Daniel 9:26b, the time span for the devastation and desolation of Jerusalem and Israel last for as long as the war. What is the war being referenced in this half verse prophecy? Has it ended yet? Can you quote scriptures that tell us of an ongoing war that started before 70 AD that is not yet concluded or finished yet, but will in our near future? Are the prophecies given in Daniel 8 and Daniel 9:26b related in any way? Is the Little Horn the same entity as the Prince who is to come?

Dave, can you provide the evidence to support your stance without simply pointing your crooked finger and uttering false accusations.

 

[Heb 13:8]

The nation of Israel is not biblical Israel. When Christ abolished circumcision on the cross, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew (religion) or a physical member of Israel. If any accept Christ, God will reattach them to Israel who is Christ according to the NT(Romans 11).

Well according to Rev 12 the woman is Israel and the child is the body of Christ, two separate entities. The child gets raptured while the woman enters the 70th week, two separate destinations.

 

[Dave L]

Well according to Rev 12 the woman is Israel and the child is the body of Christ, two separate entities. The child gets raptured while the woman enters the 70th week, two separate destinations.

This is where you need to approach Revelation from the NT instead of a non existent gap in Daniel chocked full of false prophecies. The rapture happens on the last day after the resurrection. There is no rapture besides this. Understanding this, the passage will take on a different understanding.

 

[Dave L]

Sorry Dave, without any supporting evidence for your theory, you are just expressing your opinion. The theory that you are relying on is that the five prophecies given in Daniel 9:24-27 are dependant and inter related with one another.

In Daniel 9:26b, the time span for the devastation and desolation of Jerusalem and Israel last for as long as the war. What is the war being referenced in this half verse prophecy? Has it ended yet? Can you quote scriptures that tell us of an ongoing war that started before 70 AD that is not yet concluded or finished yet, but will in our near future? Are the prophecies given in Daniel 8 and Daniel 9:26b related in any way? Is the Little Horn the same entity as the Prince who is to come?

Dave, can you provide the evidence to support your stance without simply pointing your crooked finger and uttering false accusations.

You must produce scripture stating Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks are separated by thousands of years. They wouldn't be 70 weeks if they were.

Also, Jesus fulfilled the 70th week dying in the middle of it. But you ignore this, turn him into Antichrist, and cherry pick the rest of scripture to support the many false prophecies cast by Darby.

 

[bbyrd009]

ha, i've been reading this thread for forty years lol, it hasn't changed a bit

 

[Vexatious]

You must produce scripture stating Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks are separated by thousands of years. They wouldn't be 70 weeks if they were.

Dispies are not Bible-believers. They say they are but then they spend all their time not believing the Bible. The alleged gap in the 70 Weeks serves no function but cover for not believing the 70 Weeks in the first place.

And, while I jab and dispies for the absurdity of taking symbols literally, they don't really take them literally. They argue that locusts are helicopters, stars are falling meteors, etc. In any case, that is just an exercise in not believing. They don't believe a star is a star, and neither do they believe a star represents anything else.

 

[Heb 13:8]

This is where you need to approach Revelation from the NT instead of a non existent gap in Daniel chocked full of false prophecies. The rapture happens on the last day after the resurrection. There is no rapture besides this. Understanding this, the passage will take on a different understanding.

I am approaching Rev from the NT, the gap (1260) days is in Rev 12:6, 14. Rev 12 great sign is not 2000 years old, it only came to pass on 9/23/17. The "last day" is referring to the resurrection and rapture in 1 Cor 15:50-55, 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5. It will be the last day to enter the ark of salvation before we switch to the next dispensation. The "last day" also includes the first resurrection in Matt 24:31 and Rev 20:4-5 at the end of the 70th week. God bless.

 

[Dave L]

I am approaching Rev from the NT, the gap (1260) days is in Rev 12:6, 14. Rev 12 great sign is not 2000 years old, it only came to pass on 9/23/17. The "last day" is referring to the resurrection and rapture in 1 Cor 15:50-55, 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5. It will be the last day to enter the ark of salvation before we switch to the next dispensation. The "last day" also includes the first resurrection in Matt 24:31 and Rev 20:4-5 at the end of the 70th week. God bless.

If you approached Revelation from the NT perspective, you would realize the Church is Israel, the kingdom is spiritual, and the rapture happens at the end of the world. And much more............

 

[Heb 13:8]

If you approached Revelation from the NT perspective, you would realize the Church is Israel, the kingdom is spiritual, and the rapture happens at the end of the world. And much more............

Right, the church is "spiritual Israel", not the geographical land mass. The rapture happens prior to the 70th week, and the 70th week is considered the end of the world.

 

[Dave L]

Right, the church is "spiritual Israel", not the geographical land mass. The rapture happens prior to the 70th week, and the 70th week is considered the end of the world.

False. Jesus fulfilled the 70th week being crucified in the middle of it.