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Featured Failed Prophecies

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Willie T, Jun 8, 2019.

  1. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Well-Known Member

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    :cool:

    I think that God's sovereignty is such that we CANNOT "limit Him". Was the Apostle Paul able to limit God's action in his life? I think the answer would be no--even if Paul wanted to do so. How the free will of man intersects with the sovereignty of God is a mystery that will likely only become clear when we go on to glory (and maybe we will never know)--but I'm okay with that.



    I haven't "decided" I just looked at the line that you quoted in its context.
     
  2. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    A thought that occurs to me when I read this, Paul said that he had to preach the Gospel, let me find the place . . .

    1 Corinthians 9
    16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
    17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
    18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

    Paul had to preach the Gospel, and because he had to, there was no reward for it. Remember Jesus saying, "just say, we are unprofitable servants just doing our duty". So Paul went above and beyond to preach with no cost, to gain reward.

    Much love!
     
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  3. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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  4. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    The children of Israel limited God and we according to our choices are also able to limit Him. This is what men call "free will". If we open our hearts and surrender ourselves completely to Him, His ability to work within us is unlimited... but we do have the ability to choose mammon rather than God. He gave us this "free will" to go our own way instead of His. When we do, while we have time [each of us is allotted a certain amount] He can work in us only as we allow it. See the children of Israel limiting God here:

    "Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

    Then for us , we see the Apostle Paul warning us NOT to quench the Spirit. When we do, we limit what God can do for us:

    "Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19
     
  5. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Well-Known Member

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    God seems to "give us over" to our own will at times but at other times, He, in His sovereignty, overrules the inclination to do or have done to us as we will. Jesus said that He wanted not what He willed (it was clear that Jesus did not will that He would suffer at the hands of unbelievers and die) but He surrendered to the will of the Father. In terms of God's ultimate will, I believe that "all things work for the good of those who love Him" whether, at the time, we see it that way or not. "Discipline is unpleasant at the time, but later we are glad of it." As I read it, there is a tension between the will of man and the will of God, that is beyond the human mind to understand. I didn't choose Christ--He chose me. But I now choose to serve Him.
     
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  6. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    "Soul" - "nephesh" = "life". The passage is essentially saying that "LIFE" was departing her body which is what happens when God withdraws His Breath of Life from a creature. James says, "As the body without the Spirit is dead..." It does NOT mean some disembodied "soul" thing was departing from Rachel, because according to Genesis 2:7, the "Living Soul" exists only as a consequence of the union of a creature's Body and the Breath of Life from God. At death, God's Spirit returns to Him, the creature returns to the dust, and what was a Living Soul becomes a "dead soul" or a soul that has ceased to be.
    The Rich Man and Lazarus passage is a parable which Jesus used to warn the Jews, as in the case of other parables He told for the same purpose, that their time of probation to get their act together was almost up. Got nothing to do with what happens when we die, especially in light of the fact that making this passage literal creates all sorts of contradictions which you seem unwilling or unable to refute.
    Take out the comma and it reads "I say unto you today you will be with Me in paradise" or "I say unto today - while I'm hanging here looking like I can't promise anyone anything - you will be with Me in paradise." Throughout the Bible, the word "today" is used to modify the verb that follows it around 50 times, but is used to modify the verb that precedes it over 170 times...which means the majority use of "I say" supports "I say unto you today" and not "today you will be with Me". Besides, neither Jesus nor the thief went to paradise that Friday. The thief was still alive as the sun was setting and Jesus testified that He'd not ascended to the Father on Sunday morning.
    I agree that the resurrection is in the last day, but if Jesus wants to resurrect somebody before then, He has the power to do it as does anyone to whom He imparts that power. This in no way says the dead are conscious somewhere. There were 12 resurrections in the Bible and not a single one of those resurrected had the slightest thing to say about what was going on while they were dead - because according to the testimony of the smartest man to ever live: "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."
    Pastor explains this passage:
    If you keep reading, you'll see that the "spirits in prison" were the Antedeluvians who were "prisoners of sin" - the Bible over and over and over depicts sinners as "slaves" to wickedness and "in bondage" as prisoners. Jesus Himself applies the prophecy "to set at liberty the captives" to Himself - those who are captives of sin.
    So, blood platelets were "crying out to God", right? Abel's blood plasma also cried out to God, right? What we have here is a fantastically symbolic book depicting the injustice of slain innocents causing God to feel a deep desire to avenge their deaths, much like when we look upon some great injustice and feel the same desire for justice against the unjust. When people die, they can't speak, according to David, Solomon, Hezekiah, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
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  7. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    So, Solomon would have "this world" believe that the dead know nothing when we are to beleive that the dead know plenty? That doesn't seem legit. It's deliberately misleading mankind, which God would never inspire any prophet to do, right?
     
  8. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I don't feel misled. Actually, I found Ecclesiates to be extremely effective in reforming my world-view.

    Much love!
     
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  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    1 Kings 22

    19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
    20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
    21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
    22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
    23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
     
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  10. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Well-Known Member

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    The only problem is that your Hebrew is faulty. The Hebrew for "life" is chai NOT nephesh (which does indeed mean "soul"). The expression "living soul" in Hebrew is nephesh chaya. Two different words with two different meanings.

    The account that Jesus relates, exactly conforms to the teaching of Judaism in that day, about the afterlife. Sheol is the Hebrew word for the place of the dead--both righteous and unrighteous. In Psalm 139:8, David refers to sheol. Our English Bibles translate it as "hell" because that was how they decided to translate it for the Septuagint, but that is not how it should have been translated. It is a source of confusion--especially when you mix in the "Lake of Fire" (gehenna in the Aramaic). Jesus used different words but the English translators went merrily along calling them both "hell". More modern translations render sheol as "the grave". In any case sheol was thought to be equivalent to hades which is the Greek word for the place of the soul (psuche in the Greek) of a dead person--whether righteous or unrighteous. Paradise or "the bosom of Abraham" was the part of sheol where the souls of the righteous dead went after death. It was separated from the "place of punishment"--the part of sheol where the souls of the unrighteous dead went after death. The two were separated by an unbridgeable gulf. I believe it is a real account.

    In quoting one line as a "proof text," you illustrate the hazard of doing so. Had you read on in Ecclesiastes you would see that Solomon explains that those who are dead no longer play a part in anything here on earth. BUT that does not mean that they cease to exist or that they are unconscious.

    I have never said that the Hebrew scriptures or the Book of Revelaion are non-poetic. There is a great deal of beautiful Hebrew poetry throughout the Tanakh (our OT). No believing Israelite ever thought that he would go into "soul sleep" upon death. The OT says over and over that a departed soul went to be "with his fathers".

    This comes in direct contradiction to what you have maintained about the dead going into "soul sleep": "Jesus replied, 'Your mistake is that you don't know the Scriptures, and you don't know the power of God...But concerning the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the Book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken'!” (Mark 12:24-27) When Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus, in Matthew 17, were they phantoms? No, it really was them (or, at least their souls--their "spiritual bodies").
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You will never get the Soul Sleep promoters to acknowledge that they have a seriously false doctrine. They sincerely believe that if you dig deep enough you will find souls sleeping in the ground. Do they ever wonder what happens when all the little creatures burrow under to hibernate?
     
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  12. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

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    The state of suspended animation that all humans experience after death, is for the dead person, an instant transition from life: to standing with all the rest of the dead before the Great White Throne Judgement of God. Revelation 20:11-15

    Scripture says that when a person dies their soul goes back to God, who made it and because with God there is no time; then at the Great White Throne Judgement, after the Millennium, that soul; along with every soul that ever lived, is made conscious again at the time of Judgement. Revelation 20:12, There is no knowledge of any time passing between death and Judgement, just as Hebrews 9:27 says; It is the human lot to die once, then comes the Judgement.

    Jesus said about Lazarus: He has fallen asleep… but then He clarified that Lazarus was really dead. John 11:11-14 Paul often mentions those who sleep in death.
    So Lazarus’s resurrection was a preview of the saints raised with Jesus at His resurrection and those saints who will be raised at His Return, Revelation 20:4

    They all received and will receive earthly bodies, that are subject to death again.

    But as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, there will be some Christians alive at the end of the Millennium, who will never die, they will be transformed at the Judgement into immortality, along with all the rest whose names are written in the Book of Life.

    The parable about Abraham and Lazarus, the beggar: is a scene AFTER that GWT Judgement, a homily for all to realize what our fate will be if we refuse to honor God.

    The flesh we currently inhabit will never be reconstituted, those worthy to go into Eternity with God will be spiritual beings. Matthew 22:30 In the resurrection…..they are like the angels in heaven.

    Job 14:10-15 When a human dies, all his power vanishes, he is like a dried up river. So mortal man lies down and never to rise, until the heavens be no more!
    Lord, I ask that You hide me in the grave, conceal me until Your wrath has passed, then Lord; remember me at Your appointed time! I will wait, however long it takes for the change to come. Then, You will summon me and I will answer: I am the work of Your hands.

    The sequence is:
    1/ We all die. The only exceptions will be those remaining alive at the end of the Millennium, whose names are in the Book of Life.
    2/ The Lord’s wrath will pass; all as is prophesied to happen. Revelation 15:1

    3/ The dead know nothing until the Appointed time for the Great White Throne Judgement, when there will be new heavens and a new earth. Revelation 21:1-4

    4/ Then, for those whose names are written in the Book of Life, the change will come; into immortality for Eternity. As described in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56.
     
  13. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    To me the Dispensational scheme, generally speaking, does make sense also, if one sees the distinction between the church and Israel in Scripture.
     
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  14. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Well-Known Member

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    And I don't see how one cannot see the distinction between the Church and Israel in Scripture. Hebrews 8:6--->"But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for He is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises." But God is not done with Israel--just think how wonderful it will be when Israel finally comes to see their Messiah, Yeshua. (Romans 11)

    Have a good day, farouk. :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
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  15. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    You're missing the John 5:28-29 event Jesus showed will happen on the day of His 2nd coming. That day of course is the last day of this present world, and not the future GWT which only happens after the future "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect.

    1. day of Christ's 2nd coming to gather His Church, resurrection of both the just and unjust (John 5:28-29)
    2. the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect of the 1st resurrection, every knee bows to Christ Jesus
    3. end of the thousand years, GWT, books opened, book of life checked not for those of the 1st resurrection, but for the spiritually dead who choose Jesus during the thousand years.
    4. the rest of the spiritually dead are thrown into the lake of fire, along with death and hell.


    Apostle Paul said the following about one of the brethren among the Corinthians that was having sex with his own mother...

    1 Cor 5:5
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    KJV

    That day is about Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect. It is our spirit that is saved in Jesus, not our flesh. And in that future time of the resurrection, we will manifest on earth in spiritual bodies, not flesh bodies. Paul made it clear in 2 Cor.5 that if our earthly house we are in were destroyed, we have another house that is not flesh, not made with hands, but eternal in the Heavens. This is a matter of existence in the other dimension, and applies to all souls, even to Satan and his angels. The body of the heavenly dimension simply is a spiritual body. And that is what Paul was teaching.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  16. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

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    Sorry, Davy; we do agree on a lot of things, but not on this one.
    Please show where Jesus makes it clear that He judges the world at His Return. To me, John 5:28-29 is clearly after the Millennium.
    This will happen when God comes to live with mankind on earth. Revelation 21:1-7 AFTER the Millennium.
     
  17. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    I thought of that too, but I reconsidered since the prophets of Baal were alive. Really not the same thing.
     
  18. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    My Hebrew is NOT faulty. According to Strong's "Nephesh" means "a breathing creature; life". If Nephesh means "a breathing creature", then what was departing from Rachel was that which makes possible "a breathing Rachel" - life. Life establishes the breathing creature, and not visa-versa - IOW life PRECEDES the breathing creature, for life begets other life.
    Yes, and where is the "place of the dead"? A cemetery -- or "semitary" judging by how many places of religious instruction are failing in their mission to prepare men of God for service. [/QUOTE] In Psalm 139:8, David refers to sheol. Our English Bibles translate it as "hell" because that was how they decided to translate it for the Septuagint, but that is not how it should have been translated. It is a source of confusion--especially when you mix in the "Lake of Fire" (gehenna in the Aramaic). Jesus used different words but the English translators went merrily along calling them both "hell". More modern translations render sheol as "the grave". In any case sheol was thought to be equivalent to hades which is the Greek word for the place of the soul (psuche in the Greek) of a dead person--whether righteous or unrighteous. [/QUOTE] "Hades" is translated "place of the dead" - the equivalent of Sheol. Why do we have to debate that death is the opposite of life? There is NOTHING immortal about you or I. Your problem is that you refuse to acknowledge that a Living Soul only exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, therefore you will continue to believe that a "Soul" is some ghostly presence within the body shell which is set free at death - which is Greek mythology, not Biblical truth.
    Bulldookey :) Paradise is where the Tree of Life is and from where the River of Life flow, which is by the Throne of God. Paradise is not down, it's up.
    Chapter and verse for this separation, please.
    What about Job? Job says a dead man doesn't know when his sons become famous or wind up on skid row. Surely you don't mean to say Solomon and Job are at odds over this.
    They weren't "disembodied souls" either - Moses was previously resurrected and appeared at the Mount with an eternal body and Elijah had already been translated with teh same when he appeared there, as well, right?
     
  19. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Well-Known Member

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    Note: I had a hard time addressing your opening statements because the quote mechanism was messed up in your post. If you will fix it, I will address it. There are three words that you need to consider: nephesh, neshamah, and ruach. The Hebraic concept of the "Ruach ha Kodesh" is what you appear to be referencing in your other remarks as the "breath of life" from God. These are not easy terms to parse, linguistically.

    Luke 16:26 Didn't you read the account?
    Because, as I said before, those who have died (souls in heaven), have no part in (or probably even knowledge of) events here on earth. We see this in the martyrs who John saw in heaven--they seem to have no knowledge of what is occurring on earth as they ask, "how long?" and are told that they must wait for the rest of the martyrs to join them. The martyrdom that was apparently ongoing seems to be unknown to the martyrs in heaven. Solomon and Job agree.
    Book, chapter and verse for this statement, please.
     
  20. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I don't see any Bible support for that timing you believe.

    The resurrection, we are told, is to happen on the last day of this world, which is the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. Thus John 5:28-29 is what that is about and is on the day of Jesus' coming, just as the gathering of the Church is per 1 Thess.4.
     
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