Failed Prophecies

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farouk

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Jesus told us that we would have tribulation (trouble) that came out of being one of His followers. And so we have. It has been estimated that 70 million Christians have been martyred in the 2,000 year history of the faith. Even today, approximately 100,000 Christian martyrs suffer and die every year--mostly in Muslim countries. But, there is a different character to the martyrdom which will take place under the world government of "the man of sin" (the Antichrist). While there are many who have operated in the "spirit of antichrist" down through the centuries of the Church, there will be only one thoroughly evil individual who will stand in the Temple of God and announce that he is God. Jesus told His followers to expect a future "abomination of desolation" such as what happened a couple of centuries before Jesus (215 B.C.) when Antiochus IV Epiphanes desecrated the Temple (he erected a statue of the Greek god, Zeus, slaughtered a pig on the altar and announced that he was Zeus). We can be sure that the Antichrist will be a real entity and that he will come one day to persecute Gentile Christians and Jewish-Christians. With all of the hostility being directed at Christians and Jews, it seems that those who belong to the world are being primed to accept that persecution.
"In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16.33)
 
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amadeus

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"In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." (John 16.33)
What "world" was it that Jesus overcame? Did he not then have dominion over the world that he overcame? He certainly did not overcome planet Earth, did he?
 

farouk

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What "world" was it that Jesus overcame? Did he not then have dominion over the world that he overcame? He certainly did not overcome planet Earth, did he?
He achieved victory at the Cross in Divine purposes. 1 Corinthians 15.57, and so His followers now in the world can serve Him in confidence, 1 Corinthians 15.58.
 

amadeus

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He achieved victory at the Cross in Divine purposes. 1 Corinthians 15.57, and so His followers now in the world can serve Him in confidence, 1 Corinthians 15.58.
You did not answer my question. If you don't know that's OK but if you know and are willing to answer I would certainly like to hear.
 

aspen

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Failed prophecies from false prophets are held up as supreme fact until they fail, then they are quickly forgotten and replaced.
 

amadeus

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I did try to answer; see my use of the words 'world' and 'victory'.
I thank you for your effort, but what Jesus did was open the Way that had been closed since Adam and Eve were placed outside the Garden in Eden. He did that with his sacrifice on the cross, but he overcame the world before that. He says that he overcame the world at the end of chapter 16 of the Book of John. He was not crucified until three chapters later [John 19]. When he went to the cross he had already overcome the world. It was not your world or mine nor was the world of men [planet Earth]. Jesus overcame his own world of temptation, the temptations of his own fleshly nature. We see that when he met with satan [Matt chapter 4] and again here:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:
nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39 Twice more he prayed the same words to overcome this last temptation, the desire of his flesh to avoid the pain and suffering which was before him: his death on the cross. Again all of his temptations were overcome prior to his crucifixion. When he was taken before Pontius Pilate he had already overcome the world of his own temptations described here also by John:


"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

These tempting things when followed lead a man of flesh to sin. Jesus we know never followed them, in each case overcoming them so that when he went to the cross he had already overcome the world. Each of us has these same attractions within us and when we follow them we have, all of us, been led to sin... and will be again until and if we have overcome them [overcome our individual little worlds]. Jesus died on the cross to reopen the gate leading to the Tree of Life, but we must walk the same pathway he walked. Until we overcome those temptations finally and completely by the means provided by Jesus and the Holy Spirit, we will not be allowed entrance so as to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7
 

aspen

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Failed prophecies from false prophets are held up as supreme fact until they fail, then they are quickly forgotten and replaced.

In fact, this methodology has been adopted in Washington to avoid accountability. McConnell refusing to vote on Obama’s nominee because it was too close to the presidential election. McConnell, conveniently forgetting this, plans to seat any Supreme Court Justice right up to the next inauguration!
 

Lady Crosstalk

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I thank you for your effort, but what Jesus did was open the Way that had been closed since Adam and Eve were placed outside the Garden in Eden. He did that with his sacrifice on the cross, but he overcame the world before that. He says that he overcame the world at the end of chapter 16 of the Book of John. He was not crucified until three chapters later [John 19]. When he went to the cross he had already overcome the world. It was not your world or mine nor was the world of men [planet Earth]. Jesus overcame his own world of temptation, the temptations of his own fleshly nature. We see that when he met with satan [Matt chapter 4] and again here:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:
nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39 Twice more he prayed the same words to overcome this last temptation, the desire of his flesh to avoid the pain and suffering which was before him: his death on the cross. Again all of his temptations were overcome prior to his crucifixion. When he was taken before Pontius Pilate he had already overcome the world of his own temptations described here also by John:


"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

These tempting things when followed lead a man of flesh to sin. Jesus we know never followed them, in each case overcoming them so that when he went to the cross he had already overcome the world. Each of us has these same attractions within us and when we follow them we have, all of us, been led to sin... and will be again until and if we have overcome them [overcome our individual little worlds]. Jesus died on the cross to reopen the gate leading to the Tree of Life, but we must walk the same pathway he walked. Until we overcome those temptations finally and completely by the means provided by Jesus and the Holy Spirit, we will not be allowed entrance so as to partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

Is it your interpretation that Rev. 2:7 means that only those who overcome all temptation will be resurrected to immortal life? If so, how is it that we see multitudes of Jesus' followers in John's vision of heaven? If one has to be sinless to go there, it lets out just about everyone. Why would even the martyrs need to "wash their robes in the Blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) since they have even overcome the fear of death? If we could be sinless, why do we need a Savior?
 
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amadeus

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Is it your interpretation that Rev. 2:7 means that only those who overcome all temptation will be resurrected to immortal life? If so, how is it that we see multitudes of Jesus' followers in John's vision of heaven? If one has to be sinless to go there, it lets out just about everyone. Why would even the martyrs need to "wash their robes in the Blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) since they have even overcome the fear of death? If we could be sinless, why do we need a Savior?
Don't put words into my mouth rather read what the scripture say with understanding:

I quoted the scripture in Revelation written to one of the seven churches, but which was worded in such a way that it should apply to each person who reads it or hears it. No where does God call us to be "sinless", but Jesus does say this:


"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

Does perfect mean sinless in this moment or does it mean direct ourselves always as best we can toward God, which means leaning always on Him and His understanding rather than our own. The only way it is possible for any man to be perfect even in this way is by surrendering completely to God. Impossible? Yes, to anyone of us alone, most certainly, but Jesus came and the Holy Ghost was given so that God could do in us that which we cannot do in ourselves.

We need Jesus [the Word of God] and the Holy Spirit [the quickening Spirit within us] to do theses things:

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

And where is Jesus and the Holy Ghost to be working but within us?

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

Still cannot do it?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

To say God in us cannot do it is to effectively call Jesus a liar. He most certainly can if we will allow it... If He cannot it is because our faith in Him is lacking and we limit God within us.

"According to your faith be it unto you." Matt 9:29
 

Willie T

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As I recall, Jesus went down to "Sheol" and preached, did He not? Why did He do that? I suspect it was to take the same opportunity to believe on Him that all the people in the NT got.
Seems it worked. Just like today, He led some out of that captivity... and perhaps some others might have rejected Him and chosen to stay?
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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Don't put words into my mouth rather read what the scripture say with understanding:
I really wasn't trying to "put words into" your mouth--I don't appreciate the accusation. They were honest questions.

I quoted the scripture in Revelation written to one of the seven churches, but which was worded in such a way that it should apply to each person who reads it or hears it. No where does God call us to be "sinless", but Jesus does say this:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48
That section is teaching about loving one's enemies--one of the most challenging of all of Jesus' teachings. It is only through the Holy Spirit dwelling within us that we are ever able to do so. So, if that is what you are saying, I agree with you. But, if you are going in the direction of the "holiness perfectibility movement" (which was never anything but false teaching) then I disagree.


"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27
Yes--but that section is teaching about wealthy people having a difficult time not trusting in their riches instead of trusting God. How does that connect to overcoming all temptation?
 
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GISMYS_7

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Some posters here are proving this prophecy true today!!

2Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

2Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
 

Phoneman777

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All I'm saying is that the Bible tells us that Saul instructed the lady to bring up Samuel, and it goes on to say that Samuel came and spoke with Saul. And the conversation was as if this was Samuel. Is God trying to fool us?

One thing I look at is genre, when comparing these sorts of things. This is simple narrative, just the same as in telling us that Israel passed through the Red Sea on dry land. If I accept the one, I should accept the other.

Your thoughts?

Much love!
The Bible says "...and when the woman saw Samuel", was it the actual Samuel or a demon impersonating Samuel? If it was actually Samuel, then we have to throw out the testimony of the wisest man to ever live, along with good king David, St. Peter, Job, and many other passages of Scripture. If it was a demon, then there's no problem. And why forbid mankind to talk with "familiar spirits", or "spirits that appear as familiar individuals to us"? The element of deception? And who is the master of deception, right?

The bottom line is this: We have a huge body of evidence piled up on the one side of the scale which says dead people including Samuel do not think, know, feel, communicate, plan, perceive the affairs of loved ones, haunt their houses, or have anything to do with anything that is done under this current Sun, but wait dead in their graves for the resurrection.

On the other side, we have the Bible calling him "Samuel", which would be perfectly understandable if it was a demon taking the form of deceased Samuel. I can't throw out countless passages of Scripture which clearly teach the dead "know not anything" in order to retain a belief that dead folks are "not surely" dead. What say you, my friend?
 

marks

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The Bible says "...and when the woman saw Samuel", was it the actual Samuel or a demon impersonating Samuel? If it was actually Samuel, then we have to throw out the testimony of the wisest man to ever live, along with good king David, St. Peter, Job, and many other passages of Scripture. If it was a demon, then there's no problem. And why forbid mankind to talk with "familiar spirits", or "spirits that appear as familiar individuals to us"? The element of deception? And who is the master of deception, right?

All I can say is that I can't overturn the plain sense of a plainly stated text that because I perceive a contradiction with other passages.

I personly don't see a conflict, and I see a number of places that assure me that this is a perfectly valid understanding. I believe there is a Scriptural view that addresses all these points.

At the end of the day, the Bible says Samuel spoke to Saul. So I believe Samuel spoke to Saul.

I think we need to make sure our views harmonize all Scriptures.

Much love!
 

Phoneman777

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All I can say is that I can't overturn the plain sense of a plainly stated text that because I perceive a contradiction with other passages.

I personly don't see a conflict, and I see a number of places that assure me that this is a perfectly valid understanding. I believe there is a Scriptural view that addresses all these points.

At the end of the day, the Bible says Samuel spoke to Saul. So I believe Samuel spoke to Saul.

I think we need to make sure our views harmonize all Scriptures.

Much love!
So, what you're saying is that you hold both ideas as true: that dead folks like Samuel knew and felt things and also Solomon was correct to say dead folks like Samuel "know not anything" and their emotions are "perished" once they die?
 
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Lady Crosstalk

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The Bible says "...and when the woman saw Samuel", was it the actual Samuel or a demon impersonating Samuel? If it was actually Samuel, then we have to throw out the testimony of the wisest man to ever live, along with good king David, St. Peter, Job, and many other passages of Scripture. If it was a demon, then there's no problem. And why forbid mankind to talk with "familiar spirits", or "spirits that appear as familiar individuals to us"? The element of deception? And who is the master of deception, right?

The bottom line is this: We have a huge body of evidence piled up on the one side of the scale which says dead people including Samuel do not think, know, feel, communicate, plan, perceive the affairs of loved ones, haunt their houses, or have anything to do with anything that is done under this current Sun, but wait dead in their graves for the resurrection.

On the other side, we have the Bible calling him "Samuel", which would be perfectly understandable if it was a demon taking the form of deceased Samuel. I can't throw out countless passages of Scripture which clearly teach the dead "know not anything" in order to retain a belief that dead folks are "not surely" dead. What say you, my friend?

Please read:
Genesis 35:18; Luke 16:19-31; Luke 23:43; John 11:25-26; 1 Peter 3:18-19; Revelation 6:9-10 which challenge the notion of "soul sleep" which SDAs teach.
 

amadeus

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I really wasn't trying to "put words into" your mouth--I don't appreciate the accusation. They were honest questions.

And I believe I answered them honestly. Sorry if I unnecessarily offended.
That section is teaching about loving one's enemies--one of the most challenging of all of Jesus' teachings. It is only through the Holy Spirit dwelling within us that we are ever able to do so. So, if that is what you are saying, I agree with you. But, if you are going in the direction of the "holiness perfectibility movement" (which was never anything but false teaching) then I disagree.

I have never heard a "holiness perfectibility movement" so I cannot say anything about them one way or the other. All of I did was cited scripture and my personal understanding or belief about it. I will say as I thought I already did that our God can do anything in us according to His will that we allow. The limits on what we can or cannot overcome through Word of God in us is dependent on us. We, all of us, do limit God in some measure. The ideal is to diminish the extent of the limitation. With His help we can do that if we continue to surrender to Him and to ask Him for help.


Yes--but that section is teaching about wealthy people having a difficult time not trusting in their riches instead of trusting God. How does that connect to overcoming all temptation?
So you have decided, but has God also so decided or have you put a limit on Him?
 

marks

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So, what you're saying is that you hold both ideas as true: that dead folks like Samuel knew and felt things and also Solomon was correct to say dead folks like Samuel "know not anything" and their emotions are "perished" once they die?
I think that the passage about Samuel is a narrative passage that relates events truthfully. I think that any understanding we reach has to take that into account.

Ecclesiastes, for instance, Solomon wrote about many things from an humanist perspective. Life Under the Sun, and one's perspective of life and death from that place, under the sun.

The dead know nothing, but Solomon was writing about this world. This is the context in Ecclesiastes. But the story of Samuel remains plain narrative, telling what happened, exactly the same as the Israelites passing through the Red Sea.

Much love!
 

farouk

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I think that the passage about Samuel is a narrative passage that relates events truthfully. I think that any understanding we reach has to take that into account.

Ecclesiastes, for instance, Solomon wrote about many things from an humanist perspective. Life Under the Sun, and one's perspective of life and death from that place, under the sun.

The dead know nothing, but Solomon was writing about this world. This is the context in Ecclesiastes. But the story of Samuel remains plain narrative, telling what happened, exactly the same as the Israelites passing through the Red Sea.

Much love!
I like to consider Solomon's writings in the light of 'Christ...made unto us wisdom', as Paul wrote to the Corinthians. The passage about wisdom personified in Proverbs 8 is also remarkable.
 
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