Failed Prophecies

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Keraz

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I don't see any Bible support for that timing you believe.

The resurrection, we are told, is to happen on the last day of this world, which is the day of Jesus' 2nd coming. Thus John 5:28-29 is what that is about and is on the day of Jesus' coming, just as the gathering of the Church is per 1 Thess.4.
Your opinion on John 5, is inadequate and does not make your case.
We know that Jesus will separate the nations at His Return. Matthew 25:31-33. This isn't the final Judgement of every individual, which we are plainly told in Revelation 20:11-15, happens AFTER the Millennium.

You said:...the last day of this world...
This world never ends, Eccl 1:4, Ephesians 3:21, +
When Jesus Returns, it will be the last day of this Church era.
 

Davy

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Your opinion on John 5, is inadequate and does not make your case.
We know that Jesus will separate the nations at His Return. Matthew 25:31-33. This isn't the final Judgement of every individual, which we are plainly told in Revelation 20:11-15, happens AFTER the Millennium.

You said:...the last day of this world...
This world never ends, Eccl 1:4, Ephesians 3:21, +
When Jesus Returns, it will be the last day of this Church era.

I don't have an opinion... on the John 5:28-29 verses. I accept them as they are written...

John 5:24-29
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;

27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.

In the above, Jesus was pointing to His death and resurrection, and going to preach the Gospel to the dead spirits in the heavenly prison, fulfilling the Isaiah 42:7 Scripture. At His death many graves were opened at Jerusalem, and those saints that had died appeared to many there. But that was not the resurrection that is to occur on the last day of this world when He returns.




28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


The above 28-29th verses are about the last day when He returns. That is when ALL... in the graves (the dead) will be resurrected. That is when the asleep saints of 1 Thess.4 are raised, and He brings them with Him on His descent to the Mount of Olives. The dead unjust are raised on that day also, but only to begin His "thousand years" reign with His elect per Rev.20. That is about the fulfillment of the Isaiah 25 Scripture when death will be swallowed up.
 

Keraz

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I don't have an opinion... on the John 5:28-29 verses. I accept them as they are written...
Yes you do, your opinion is that this happens at the Return.
Which I show is wrong; the raising of ALL the dead and the giving of immortality happens at the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
The above 28-29th verses are about the last day when He returns. That is when ALL... in the graves (the dead) will be resurrected. That is when the asleep saints of 1 Thess.4 are raised, and He brings them with Him on His descent to the Mount of Olives. The dead unjust are raised on that day also, but only to begin His "thousand years" reign with His elect per Rev.20. That is about the fulfillment of the Isaiah 25 Scripture when death will be swallowed up.
The Bible simply does not say this at all. The ONLY raising to life when Jesus Returns , will be the Trib martyrs. Rev 20:4 No one else.
 
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Bobby Jo

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28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


The above 28-29th verses are about the last day when He returns. ...

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, ...
Rev. 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

It's not when Jesus Returns, -- it's at the end of HIS Millennial Kingdom.

And after the dead are raised, then those that are alive and remain shall be caught up to be forever with the LORD in the air (the New Jerusalem).


OR you can believe the HIRELINGS which use the "eminent rapture of the church" as a club held over the heads of the parishioners to keep them in fear of missing a Sunday and not being "raptured". And it's ONLY a C O I N C I D E N C E that they also get to contribute to the O F F E R I N G P L A T E.


HIRELINGS, -- what would we do without them ...
Bobby Jo
 

Davy

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Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, ...
Rev. 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

It's not when Jesus Returns, -- it's at the end of HIS Millennial Kingdom.

And after the dead are raised, then those that are alive and remain shall be caught up to be forever with the LORD in the air (the New Jerusalem).

OR you can believe the HIRELINGS which use the "eminent rapture of the church" as a club held over the heads of the parishioners to keep them in fear of missing a Sunday and not being "raptured". And it's ONLY a C O I N C I D E N C E that they also get to contribute to the O F F E R I N G P L A T E.

HIRELINGS, -- what would we do without them ...
Bobby Jo


You're following a theory of men that believes the "dead" of Rev.20:5 are those not raised yet, which is the way the deceived read that Scripture using today's world as interpreter.

When Jesus returns, and the dead are raised on that day, all... will be in spiritual bodies. When Jesus returns, the concept of flesh death (the 1st death) will be over. Only the 2nd death is what the unsaved will be subject to in Christ's future Millennium.
If you don't understand God's Word about the idea of being spiritually dead, then I suggest you do more Bible study.
 

Bobby Jo

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When Jesus returns, and the dead are raised on that day, all... will be in spiritual bodies. ...

  • The 144,000 will evangelize the natural world in "SPIRITUAL BODIES".
  • Christians that survive the Tribulation will have "SPIRITUAL BODIES".
  • Non-Christians that survive the Tribulation will also have "SPIRITUAL BODIES".
  • Jesus will have a "SPIRITUAL BODY".

I guess the Millennial Kingdom is a "SPIRITUAL KINGDOM"; and the child that dies at the age of 100 will have a "SPIRITUAL DEATH"; and the sinner that dies at the age of 100 will ALSO have a "SPIRITUAL DEATH". Yep, it's all SPIRITUAL, including the NEW JERUSALEM that travels though our "SPIRITUAL UNIVERSE" and arrives above our "SPIRITUAL EARTH". And the FINAL BATTLE will be a "SPIRITUAL BATTLE" in which a "SPIRITUAL SATAN" will be thrown into a "SPIRITUAL ABYSS".

What a load of "SPIRITUAL BARNYARD",
Bobby Jo
 
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Davy

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  • The 144,000 will evangelize the natural world in "SPIRITUAL BODIES".
  • Christians that survive the Tribulation will have "SPIRITUAL BODIES".
  • Non-Christians that survive the Tribulation will also have "SPIRITUAL BODIES".
  • Jesus will have a "SPIRITUAL BODY".
I guess the Millennial Kingdom is a "SPIRITUAL KINGDOM"; and the child that dies at the age of 100 will have a "SPIRITUAL DEATH"; and the sinner that dies at the age of 100 will ALSO have a "SPIRITUAL DEATH". Yep, it's all SPIRITUAL, including the NEW JERUSALEM that travels though our "SPIRITUAL UNIVERSE" and arrives above our "SPIRITUAL EARTH". And the FINAL BATTLE will be a "SPIRITUAL BATTLE" in which a "SPIRITUAL SATAN" will be thrown into a "SPIRITUAL ABYSS".

What a load of "SPIRITUAL BARNYARD",
Bobby Jo

The "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught simply is the "image of the heavenly" he taught. And he compared that spiritual body to Christ Jesus' resurrection. These kind of matters cannot be understood by a fleshy thinking, which is apparently what is getting in your way of grasping these things.

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV
 

Keraz

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The "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught simply is the "image of the heavenly" he taught. And he compared that spiritual body to Christ Jesus' resurrection. These kind of matters cannot be understood by a fleshy thinking, which is apparently what is getting in your way of grasping these things.

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV
After all that is prophesied to happen; does happen, before Jesus Returns and reigns in His Kingdom for 1000 years, THEN God will come to dwell with mankind on earth. In God's Kingdom, only those people whose names were found in the Book of Life and are made immortal; will be there. Revelation 21:1-7
This proves that Paul was prophesying about Eternity in 1 Corinthians 15:44-56. As he says in verse 24.

As much as some would like, the conversion into immortality for those worthy, does not happen for anybody until the Great White Throne Judgment and the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 29:1-15
Even the GT martyrs whose souls Jesus brings back with Him and resurrects, are not made Spiritual or immortal. They can die again. As Lazarus did. as the saints raised at Jesus resurrection, did. Only Jesus, the Firstfruits is immortal now.
 
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epostle

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I thought some of you might get a kick out of this excerpt from an old book I almost forgot I had.

Failed Prophecies

What's a failed prophet to do? What would you do? Since 1855, dispensationalism's supposed experts in "fulfilled prophecy in our day” have told millions of their followers (i.e., victims) that the Rapture was just around the corner because Russia ("Magog") will soon invade Israel. Then came the establishment of the nation of Israel on May 14, 1948. The generation of the fig tree had begun! Only 40 more years until the Millennium! Only 33 more years until the absolutely Secret Rapture! 1981 is coming! Get ready! Get Set!

[This was written 26 years ago. (It is 2019 as of this post) Willie T]

No go; 1981 came and went. Nothing happened. The next major date was May 14, 1988, the 40th anniversary of the establishment of the State of Israel — the "generation of the fig tree,” 1948-1988. May 14 came and went. Nothing happened. No Rapture. Again.

"No, no,” said Edgar C. Whisenant in July, 1988, "it's going to be this September!” September came and went. Nothing happened. "No, no,” said Mr. Whisenant, "I forgot about the extra year in zero A.D. It's going to be in September, 1989.” September, 1989, came and went. Nothing happened. In November, the Berlin Wall came down. A big problem was brewing. Where was national Israel's invader? No invasion — no Rapture!

But then came hope! Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait on August 2, 1990. "Wait, wait!” the cries came from The Church of Paperback Sensationalism. (I call this theology dispensensationalism.) "It really will be Babylon. It won't be Russia after all. We've been wrong since 1855. No problem, though. We just need to shift a few gears. It's Iraq. Baghdad. The restoration of Babylon is almost here. It's coming soon!” Dallas Seminary professor Charles Dyer's book was published in January, 1991, The Rise of Babylon: Sign of the End Time. Babylon was on the map again! So was Dallas Seminary. Hot stuff!

Even before Dr. Dyer got into the race for royalties, retired Dallas Seminary president John Walvoord spotted a fabulous new market for his 1974 Armageddon prophecy book that had gone out of print. Once again, the gullible victims streamed into the book stores to get the inside dope. The cash registers hummed. Royalties flowed. One million copies of this resurrected potboiler had been sold by February (Time, Feb. 11, 1991).

But then a funny thing happened on the night of January 16, 1991. Our Air Force began the smashing of "Babylon.” Over the next month, bombs smashed Iraq flat. Flatter than the collected works of Hal Lindsey. Thud. "It's revised edition time!"

Hoaxed Again!
The realization began to dawn on the hapless troops in the pews: hoaxed again. Again! Nuts! People don't like to be hoaxed. Christians don't like to be hoaxed in the name of Jesus. Fundamentalists love to be thrilled. They love sensationalism. But at some point, their resentment about being hoaxed overcomes their love of endlessly false prophecies.

Then came the week of August 19. Thud. Down went Dzerzhinsky's statue. Down went the dreams of the Communist Party's leaders. Boris Pugo shot his wife and killed himself. Marshal Akhromeyev committed suicide. Soviet Communism died. It's over.

So is Hal Lindsey's reputation as a prophet. So is John Walvoord's. Walvoord, at 80, lived to see it. I regard this as evidence that God has a marvelous sense of humor.

I wonder how it feels. To be a Communist who lives long enough to have seen this. To be a best-selling paperback book author whose specialty is false prophecies about Russia's coming invasion of Israel. To see the work of your life get flushed down the commode of history. ("This can't be happening. It just can't!") It must be painful. I hope so.

The day after Dzerzhinsky's statue crashed to the ground in what was then called Dzerzhinsky Square, but what will soon be called something else, Paul Crouch announced to his Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN) viewers: "We need to get Hal Lindsey on the show to explain the meaning of what has happened.” Indeed you do, Paul. Let him try to reconcile these events for your emotionally victimized followers. Let him play the "identify Babylon” game one more time. Let's see Hal Lindsey dance the "Whisenant two-step.” It greatly resembles "Montezuma's two-step.” In both dances, the pressure is intense. There will be dozens of Whisenant two-steppers in 1992, the year of the revised editions.

Rapture Postponed
It's all over. The curtain has come down. The Rapture has been postponed. Again. A dispensationalist can still argue that the inevitable invasion of Israel by Russia may take place in a hundred years or a thousand, but the troops in the pews have been told for 135 years that this event is imminent. The Rapture was due at any moment because Russia was going to invade the State of Israel in any moment plus seven years. "The clock of prophecy is ticking again!” shouted all those best-selling authors who never bothered to tell their hapless followers that according to original dispensational theology, the clock of prophecy will not start ticking until after the Rapture. It's "any-moment Rapture” vs. "ticking clock today."

Even John Walvoord couldn't resist those fabulous book royalties (1.6 million copies, as of August). He had to get back into the pop-dispensationalist parade. He announced that the clock of prophecy was again ticking (USA Today, Jan. 19, 1991). He abandoned the doctrine of the any-moment Rapture, which he had long taught. He thereby baptized Hal Lindsey's "just around the corner” eschatology. And then… thud. Goodbye reputation.

Smashed. Smashed. Smashed by Norman Schwarzkopf in January and by Boris Yeltsin in August. Flattened. Dead. "Rapture postponed indefinitely.” What now?
POPE SLAMS EUROPEAN UNION

In his first remarks about the 28-member block since European parliamentary elections last week resulted in gains for populist parties across the continent, the pope lamented the appearance of what he called "new borders" across the EU and said the organization "has lost the goal of working together."

"Europe is not being attacked by cannons or bombs in this moment but by ideologies, ideologies that are not European, that come either from outside or that stem from small groups," he said.

After referring to the tragedy of the two World Wars, he pleaded: "Please, let's not return to this. Let's learn from history. Let's not fall in the same hole."

"I would say to believers, 'Pray for Europe … for unity, that the Lord will give us this grace,' " the pope added later.
[Cath Cauc] Francis criticizes traditionalist Catholics who 'safeguard the ashes' of the past

So much for failed "prophecies" about the Pope and the 28 member European Union.
 

Davy

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After all that is prophesied to happen; does happen, before Jesus Returns and reigns in His Kingdom for 1000 years, THEN God will come to dwell with mankind on earth. In God's Kingdom, only those people whose names were found in the Book of Life and are made immortal; will be there. Revelation 21:1-7
This proves that Paul was prophesying about Eternity in 1 Corinthians 15:44-56. As he says in verse 24.

As much as some would like, the conversion into immortality for those worthy, does not happen for anybody until the Great White Throne Judgment and the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 29:1-15
Even the GT martyrs whose souls Jesus brings back with Him and resurrects, are not made Spiritual or immortal. They can die again. As Lazarus did. as the saints raised at Jesus resurrection, did. Only Jesus, the Firstfruits is immortal now.

The conversion of the 'mortal' soul to immortality does occur on the day of Christ's coming for those still alive, or to those resurrected in Christ that He brings with Him when He comes.

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV


The "first resurrection" of Rev.20, which occurs on the day of Christ's 2nd coming, is one to everlasting life. This is why we are told those will be the only ones NOT subject to the "second death" throughout the "thousand years". The only type of death remaining after Christ's return is that "second death", which is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the GWT Judgment that happens right after the "thousand years". That order is hard set there in the Revelation 20 Chapter.
 

Keraz

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The conversion of the 'mortal' soul to immortality does occur on the day of Christ's coming for those still alive, or to those resurrected in Christ that He brings with Him when He comes.

John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV


The "first resurrection" of Rev.20, which occurs on the day of Christ's 2nd coming, is one to everlasting life. This is why we are told those will be the only ones NOT subject to the "second death" throughout the "thousand years". The only type of death remaining after Christ's return is that "second death", which is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the GWT Judgment that happens right after the "thousand years". That order is hard set there in the Revelation 20 Chapter.
The issue of when immortality is conferred, is not one that we should quibble over. All will be revealed in due course.
I contend that it does not and cannot happen until the GWT Judgment. You believe it happens at the Return, but John 5:24 does not give timing.
John 3:16 also does not say when, but Eternal life is for Eternity. Revelation 21 & 22
After the Millennium is also logical, as why should there be immortals alongside people who can die, during the Millennium? Isaiah 65:20
 

Copperhead

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After the Millennium is also logical, as why should there be immortals alongside people who can die, during the Millennium? Isaiah 65:20

Revelation 2:26-27 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;

Just as there are immortals among those who can die now....

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have received Angels into their houses unawares.
 

Keraz

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Just as there are immortals among those who can die now....

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have received Angels into their houses unawares.
Angels can be annihilated too! A third of them have gone with the Devil, Revelation 12:7-9

Scripture is indisputable; it is only when the Book of Life is opened at the GWT, that immortality will be conferred.
 

Copperhead

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Angels can be annihilated too! A third of them have gone with the Devil, Revelation 12:7-9

Scripture is indisputable; it is only when the Book of Life is opened at the GWT, that immortality will be conferred.

Yes, scripture is indisputable. Who is ruling with a rod of iron during the millennial kingdom?

And the question I asked in another thread... are angels considered saints?

Actually, even the bad angels are not annihilated. The live for eternity just like anyone else. Just that they suffer for eternity for their rebellion.
 
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Copperhead

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King Jesus.
He was raised from the dead after 3 days and made immortal, He is the firstfruits; 1 Cor 15:23a But there will be no one else until after the Millennium, as Revelation 21:1-7 states.

Ok... then how is it that those that overcome are ruling with a rod of iron with Him? And since that letter was written to those in Thyatira it has to mean them and all that follow of the redeemed, as not only was each letter to a particular church, but also for all the churches.

Revelation 2:26-27 (NKJV) And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels’—as I also have received from My Father;

Now that was written to those brethren around 95AD. So it would appear that those saints are ruling along with Yeshua. that would make sense since we are the body of Yeshua in one respect and the bride of Yeshua in another respect. And being the bride and body of Yeshua, we are one flesh with Yeshua, as per the scripture.

Genesis 2:24 (NKJV) Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

And it would only seem that during the millennial kingdom does this ruling with a rod of iron as a despot occur. Not after the millennial kingdom when the new heaven and new earth are established, after hades and death have been cast into the lake of fire per Revelation 21 and no more sin. In the Millennial kingdom there will be those who will not come up to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles as one example. And there will be sin and death still in the kingdom.

So who again is ruling with a rod of iron? The redeemed saints of Yeshua along with Him.
 
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Keraz

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So who again is ruling with a rod of iron? The redeemed saints of Yeshua along with Him.
Revelation 5:9-10 ….You have made them, [Christians] a royal House of priests for God and they shall reign on earth. Isaiah 66:21
Ordinary people, who have overcome Satan, as we see in each of the seven Church's of Revelation 2 to 3. NOT immortals, but there will be the Tribulation martyrs as well; Revelation 20:4, they are brought back to life like Lazarus was.
 

Copperhead

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Revelation 5:9-10 ….You have made them, [Christians] a royal House of priests for God and they shall reign on earth. Isaiah 66:21
Ordinary people, who have overcome Satan, as we see in each of the seven Church's of Revelation 2 to 3. NOT immortals, but there will be the Tribulation martyrs as well; Revelation 20:4, they are brought back to life like Lazarus was.

Several translations use "us" in place of "them" in the passage of Revelation. That would imply that the elders are the redeemed.

And even that makes sense since Peter calls us a "royal priesthood" 1 Peter 2:9. And the only other reference to a group being divided into 24 is when David divided the priests into 24 groups in 1 Chronicles 24. So the circumstantial evidence is that these elders are representative of the redeemed.

The dispute is only over a single word here "them" or "us". It is a translational thing. In the Textus Receptus, there is a definite word that has a personal meaning like "us", "we", etc. In the newer translations that rely on what is termed the "majority text" have "them" in the translation, but there is no Greek word that is being translated. It is just filler in there for grammatical clarity.

So a doctrine is built on the lack of a word. Not probably the wisest idea. Since many earlier translations did have the "us" in there, there really is no justification to replace it with "them" because some manuscripts didn't have the personal Greek word "ego" in this passage. The 1599 Geneva, the KJV, Green's Literal Translation, Young's Literal Translation, etc all have "us" in the translation. It is only the newer translations that have changed it. And since there is no legitimate basis for doing so, like an alternative Greek word in the text instead of "ego", then the change is not valid.
 

Keraz

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Several translations use "us" in place of "them" in the passage of Revelation. That would imply that the elders are the redeemed.
Pedantic nonsense!
Revelation 5:9 says it is everyone bought by the Blood of Jesus. Every born again Christian from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal. Rev 7:9
 
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Copperhead

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Pedantic nonsense!
Revelation 5:9 says it is everyone bought by the Blood of Jesus. Every born again Christian from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal. Rev 7:9

Yes. Details do matter. If the proper understanding of the passage is “us” as opposed to “them”, then that means the elders are the redeemed on the thrones surrounding Yahweh’s throne.