"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" (Mark Twain).

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O'Darby

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Faith has been defined and explained so many different ways that it's a difficult concept to grasp, but “trust” is simple to understand. The lexical sources listed above defined it when they defined pistis as a confidence, a firm persuasion, a conviction based on the reliability, or trustworthiness... of the person or thing that is trusted. Trust also has to have an object and by that I mean something that is trusted. The human mind cannot “just trust” because we have to trust something. It can be God, our spouse, our friend, or even that the sun will come up tomorrow, but trust requires an object because we have to trust some trustworthy thing.

Once again it was the Catholics that gave us the definition that has been used to ridicule Christians and admittedly “believing in something for which there is no proof” and that seems like a questionable practice. So how did that non-biblical definition of “faith” develop? Doctrines were brought into Christianity over the centuries that were not biblically sound and some were not even logical. When those doctrines were questioned because there was no proper biblical answer is why the answer often given by the church authorities was simply “take it by faith.” The history of the Christian Church has many examples of wonderful Christians who were pressured or tortured into taking things “by faith” that did not make sense to them. Thus, over time “faith” came to mean a belief in something for which there is no proof, and the average Christian is not enough of a linguist to know that the commonly accepted definition of faith is not the actual biblical definition of the Greek and Latin text, and so they wrongly think that “belief in something for which there is no proof” is a biblical definition of “faith.”
Yes, this is good. Faith has come to be equated, not just by critics of religious belief but by believers as well, as mindless acceptance. It's almost as though mindless acceptance were a badge of honor, something to be proud of. For things like the existence of God or the truth of Christianity, there can be no proof other than an "inner knowing," but the convictions that lead to faith (trust) can certainly be well-informed ones.

We're at a somewhat different level with the Bible. The Bible's historical and "scientific" claims are real-world claims subject to objective scrutiny. If the best available evidence tells us a biblical claim is simply false or wildly improbable to a level of certainty or near-certainty, what are we to do? Does faith require us to take the biblical claim at face value just because some Christian authorities insist the Bible is the literal, inerrant, infallible word of God? I say no, many Christians apparently say yes. I don't believe my view of the Bible has any negative effect on my faith in God (quite the opposite, in fact) but it does allow me to be true to myself and not live in a state of cognitive dissonance.
 
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Behold

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Trying to read it literally;

Here is your main problem, as you have described.

You are trying to read the bible, as if its a dictionary, or the back of a cereal box, or the instruction manual regarding "how to change out your fuel injector".
And that is why the bible is for you, not what it should be.
See, the bible has to be Spiritually DISCERNED.. It has to be taught to you by revelation., not by reading.

Also,

You imply that Science is the Truth and the Bible cant be trusted.
Yet, Before Galileo redesigned the "looking tube" and looked at the stars, and when Catholics were teaching that the world is flat, the BIBLE was teaching that the Earth is a Circle = in the Book of Isaiah .
How does it know that.
How does the bible know that the Tribulation is about to arrive ?
How does the bible know 3500 yrs before Jesus was born, that He would be born in Bethlehem ?
How did the OT Psalmist know that Jesus would be CRUCIFIED, and yet not one of the Lord's bones would be broken.?
The OT testified over 105 prophecies regarding Jesus....


A.) Science can't explain any of this.....

So, somewhere along the way, during your 50 yrs, of whatever it is that you believe about Christianity, 2 things never happened for you, before you came to this forum... apparently.

1.) You never met a Teacher of Pauline Theology, who is anointed to teach the word who could have helped you with your bible issue.

2.) The Spirit of God never gave you the revelation that the Bible is "Spiritually Discerned", .. Its not "read literally" as the way you can unlock its Light.

So, i can help you...if possible.... or these can help you, but it could be that you are too elevated in your self reliance to ever feel that you need any help..... but its apparent that you need a lot.

David Jeremiah
Adrian Rogers
James Kennedy
Lloyd Ogilvie
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
Four corners.
Are you putting God in a box? - LOL
I'm sure you understand what I'm saying, but I'll try to clarify for others:
Good post. I wanted to hear you flesh that out, and knew that many readers needed more than I.

Now that we better understand that the box is you, not God...
We should talk about box size.

No wonder most Christians are viewed as being narrow-minded.
All to do with box size, I suppose.

And it seems that the institutional church is all about stuffing 200 lb people in 50 lb boxes.

1710193980607.jpeg

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St. SteVen

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Yes, this is good. Faith has come to be equated, not just by critics of religious belief but by believers as well, as mindless acceptance. It's almost as though mindless acceptance were a badge of honor, something to be proud of. For things like the existence of God or the truth of Christianity, there can be no proof other than an "inner knowing," but the convictions that lead to faith (trust) can certainly be well-informed ones.
Big faith and little faith.
We exalt those who take "by faith" the things outside their box. (can I say that?)
And Jesus criticized those who didn't. See scripture below.

It was obvious to the disciples that the boat was about to sink and
they would be in life-threatening peril. That was their box.
But how did Jesus view this situation? And why was his box BIGGER than theirs?

Matthew 8:26-27 NIV
He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?”
Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.
27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this?
Even the winds and the waves obey him!”

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BlessedPeace

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@St. SteVen hoped I wouldn't overlook this, but what can I say? "All I can do is believe" - even though I can't really believe, can't rationalize what I'm asked to accept, can't even think? What does "believe" even mean in this context? Shut down my brain and mouth the words, or what? Could someone actually think this sort of "belief" was pleasing to God?

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said. "One can't believe impossible things."​
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. There goes the shawl again!”​

― Lewis Carroll​
I don't think LC's "parable", caught on at the time.


He was an atheist first.
 

BlessedPeace

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That's fascinating.
Yet even masters are slaves to someone.
They are indeed.
Romans 6:22
This is a horrible thought, but someone had brought up the OT passage about the siege of Jerusalem that was
so bad the people were eating their babies. Someone commented that they were probably offing them to Moloch,
Meaning they had given up on God.
Human sacrifice occurred to God as well.
Remember how Abraham didn't hesitate to offer his son as a human sacrifice when God commanded?

Dead babies being eaten is not an old world practice for survival.

In N.Korea families are doing this.
We have a line in one of our worship songs that reads:
"I don't know what you're doing, but I know what you've done."


Glad you brought this up. I hope @O'Darby doesn't overlook it.
This motivation of fear brought to us by spiritual extortion by the threat of fear is a powerful thing.
If we believe our spiritual leaders, they hold us captive with their doctrinal threats.
No need to give ANY rational thought to a threat you believe. Fear is enough.

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How many of us believe out of fear of Hell?
 

St. SteVen

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Does faith require us to take the biblical claim at face value just because some Christian authorities insist the Bible is the literal, inerrant, infallible word of God? I say no, many Christians apparently say yes.
Right.
I challenge some here about knowing where the Bible came from.
Typically they refuse to investigate this for fear that it would weaken their faith I imagine.
They keep a firm grip on their cognitive dissonance security blanket.
"As long as I believe what the church told me, I'll be alright."

I don't believe my view of the Bible has any negative effect on my faith in God (quite the opposite, in fact) but it does allow me to be true to myself and not live in a state of cognitive dissonance.
That's a good way to put it.

Makes me wonder about child-like faith though.
How does that fit here?

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O'Darby

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Here is your main problem, as you have described.

You are trying to read the bible, as if its a dictionary, or the back of a cereal box, or the instruction manual regarding "how to change out your fuel injector".
And that is why the bible is for you, not what it should be.
See, the bible has to be Spiritually DISCERNED.. It has to be taught to you by revelation., not by reading.

Also,

You imply that Science is the Truth and the Bible cant be trusted.
Yet, Before Galileo redesigned the "looking tube" and looked at the stars, and when Catholics were teaching that the world is flat, the BIBLE was teaching that the Earth is a Circle = in the Book of Isaiah .
How does it know that.
How does the bible know that the Tribulation is about to arrive ?
How does the bible know 3500 yrs before Jesus was born, that He would be born in Bethlehem ?
How did the OT Psalmist know that Jesus would be CRUCIFIED, and yet not one of the Lord's bones would be broken.?
The OT testified over 105 prophecies regarding Jesus....


A.) Science can't explain any of this.....

So, somewhere along the way, during your 50 yrs, of whatever it is that you believe about Christianity, 2 things never happened for you, before you came to this forum... apparently.

1.) You never met a Teacher of Pauline Theology, who is anointed to teach the word who could have helped you with your bible issue.

2.) The Spirit of God never gave you the revelation that the Bible is "Spiritually Discerned", .. Its not "read literally" as the way you can unlock its Light.

So, i can help you...if possible.... or these can help you, but it could be that you are too elevated in your self reliance to ever feel that you need any help..... but its apparent that you need a lot.

David Jeremiah
Adrian Rogers
James Kennedy
Lloyd Ogilvie
God love ya, but your presumptions about everyone else's spirituality, and your assumption of the mantle of the englightened teacher of everyone else, do become a bit much. Does @Behold mean "Behold ME"? :) I'm sure you mean well, and I take all forum discussions as little more than Monty Python skits, so I welcome your contributions and try to take them in the spirit in which I believe they are intended.

Your characterization of how I read the Bible is pretty much 180 degrees off-base. What you describe is, in fact, pretty much exactly how the literalist inerrantists read it. I happen to be neck-deep in Christian theology and apologetics, including Pauline theology, as well as prayerful reading of the Bible. Which doesn't make me anything special, but your assumption that I'm some sort of bewildered spiritual rube is false.

I will say this: David Jeremiah is one of a handful of big bucks evangelists who send my Phony Detector screaming into the red zone. He literally makes my skin crawl. Adrian Rogers I love to death - he's still on American Family Radio every afternoon, 20 years after his death. He is one of the truly great preachers - well worth listening to just for his voice - and I have no doubts as to his sincerity, but his theology isn't mine.

For anyone who isn't familiar with Adrian Rogers, a visit to his ministry's YouTube channel is well-worthwhile:
 

St. SteVen

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@St. SteVen hoped I wouldn't overlook this, but what can I say? "All I can do is believe" - even though I can't really believe, can't rationalize what I'm asked to accept, can't even think? What does "believe" even mean in this context? Shut down my brain and mouth the words, or what? Could someone actually think this sort of "belief" was pleasing to God?
Perhaps some balance is in order.
Jesus challenged the disciples to ENLARGE their box.
How can we do that without surrendering our intellect?

Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said. "One can't believe impossible things."​

"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. There goes the shawl again!”​

― Lewis Carroll
That's a great quote.
And a good challenge for us to GROW in faith.
What would that look like?

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Peterlag

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Yes, this is good. Faith has come to be equated, not just by critics of religious belief but by believers as well, as mindless acceptance. It's almost as though mindless acceptance were a badge of honor, something to be proud of. For things like the existence of God or the truth of Christianity, there can be no proof other than an "inner knowing," but the convictions that lead to faith (trust) can certainly be well-informed ones.

We're at a somewhat different level with the Bible. The Bible's historical and "scientific" claims are real-world claims subject to objective scrutiny. If the best available evidence tells us a biblical claim is simply false or wildly improbable to a level of certainty or near-certainty, what are we to do? Does faith require us to take the biblical claim at face value just because some Christian authorities insist the Bible is the literal, inerrant, infallible word of God? I say no, many Christians apparently say yes. I don't believe my view of the Bible has any negative effect on my faith in God (quite the opposite, in fact) but it does allow me to be true to myself and not live in a state of cognitive dissonance.
Oppss... I left out the lexical sources listed above defined it when they defined pistis as a confidence, a firm persuasion, a conviction based on the reliability, or trustworthiness... of the person or thing that is trusted. I will list it here below...

  • “With the predominant idea of trust (or confidence)” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament).
  • “Firm persuasion, a conviction based upon hearing” (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
  • “Firm persuasion” (A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament by E.W. Bullinger).
  • “State of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted; trust, confidence” (A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, W. Arndt and Wilber Gingrich, 2000; usually abbreviated “BDAG”).
  • “It is the attitude of complete trust in Christ...” (The New Bible Dictionary).
  • “In the New Testament, ‘faith’ is used in a number of ways, but primarily with the meaning ‘trust’ or ‘confidence’ in God” (Hollman Bible Dictionary).
 

Peterlag

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Yes, this is good. Faith has come to be equated, not just by critics of religious belief but by believers as well, as mindless acceptance. It's almost as though mindless acceptance were a badge of honor, something to be proud of. For things like the existence of God or the truth of Christianity, there can be no proof other than an "inner knowing," but the convictions that lead to faith (trust) can certainly be well-informed ones.

We're at a somewhat different level with the Bible. The Bible's historical and "scientific" claims are real-world claims subject to objective scrutiny. If the best available evidence tells us a biblical claim is simply false or wildly improbable to a level of certainty or near-certainty, what are we to do? Does faith require us to take the biblical claim at face value just because some Christian authorities insist the Bible is the literal, inerrant, infallible word of God? I say no, many Christians apparently say yes. I don't believe my view of the Bible has any negative effect on my faith in God (quite the opposite, in fact) but it does allow me to be true to myself and not live in a state of cognitive dissonance.
May I have an example of what might be the best available evidence telling us a biblical claim is simply false or wildly improbable to a level of certainty or near-certainty?
 

O'Darby

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I don't think LC's "parable", caught on at the time.


He was an atheist first.
No, no, no. Lewis Carroll and Henry David Thoreau are two of my longtime pet interests (and almost household gods). Carroll was deeply religious: https://www.youtube.com/@lwfministries/featured. There is even a spiritual biography of him, Formed By Faith ("For Lewis Carroll, a deacon in the Church of England, faith in Christ and belief in a loving God stood at the core of his being, but little has been written about what the church or faith meant to the celebrated author of the Alice books.").
Makes me wonder about child-like faith though.
How does that fit here?
I don't believe child-like was meant to imply simple-minded. It's the trust that a young child has in her parents. It's a willingness to say, "I don't understand a lot of this stuff, God, and some of it is a great and even unappealing mystery to me, but I will continue to follow the path with trust that I will see in the end how it is worthy of the Being I believe you to be."

Again, however, the child-like faith is in God, not a book - unless you believe the book is in fact God. That's the real issue: looking at the Bible as though it were essentially God and for some reason thinking this is required to have "real" faith and be a "real" Christian.
 
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O'Darby

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May I have an example of what might be the best available evidence telling us a biblical claim is simply false or wildly improbable to a level of certainty or near-certainty?
I really don't want to open this can of worms. The account of the Exodus simply will not withstand scrutiny. Indeed, the most expert historians and archaeologists dealing with the pre-history and history of Israel largely agree that the OT is wonderfully accurate for the period surrounding the time it was written and quite inaccurate for preceding time periods. But I'm not going to go down the path of debating this sort of thing because it's not my purpose.

The Young Earth issue is an interesting example because the Bible doesn't have to be read this way. It's not just that a 6,500-year-old earth is scientifically preposterous, it's that one arrives at a 6,500-year-old earth only by the most literal, wooden reading of the text. (Some Young Earth theories are more sophisticated and actually fairly clever, but it basically started with Bishop Usher in the 17th century: Ussher chronology - Wikipedia.)
 

St. SteVen

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Again, however, the child-like faith is in God, not a book - unless you believe the book is in fact God. That's the real issue: looking at the Bible as though it were essentially God and for some reason thinking this is required to be have "real" faith and be a "real" Christian.
Yup.
There's a fine line between bowing to a wooden idol and bowing to a paper book. (made of a wood product)
Or not having a graven image, but having a book that required an "engraved" plate to print the "image" of the page.
(my background is in lithographic printing)

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Peterlag

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I really don't want to open this can of worms. The account of the Exodus simply will not withstand scrutiny. Indeed, the most expert historians and archaeologists dealing with the pre-history and history of Israel largely agree that the OT is wonderfully accurate for the period surrounding the time it was written and quite inaccurate for preceding time periods. But I'm not going to go down the path of debating this sort of thing because it's not my purpose.

The Young Earth issue is an interesting example because the Bible doesn't have to be read this way. It's not just that a 6,500-year-old earth is scientifically preposterous, it's that one arrives at a 6,500-year-old earth only by the most literal, wooden reading of the text. (Some Young Earth theories are more sophisticated and actually fairly clever, but it basically started with Bishop Usher in the 17th century: Ussher chronology - Wikipedia.)
Oh my God who teaches the Earth is not billions of years old? I don't know much about the Old Testament even if you did go there I would not be able to respond. But everyone I know believes the Earth is many millions if not billions of years old.
 

O'Darby

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Yup.
There's a fine line between bowing to a wooden idol and bowing to a paper book. (made of a wood product)
Or not having a graven image, but having a book that required an "engraved" plate to print the "image" of the page.
(my background is in lithographic printing)

View attachment 43174

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When I got my degree in Journalism in 1972, they took us around to newspapers to show us how it was done (basically your illustration). My Journalism degree was so far out of date so quickly that I might as well have majored in finger-painting.
 
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O'Darby

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Oh my God who teaches the Earth is not billions of years old? I don't know much about the Old Testament even if you did go there I would not be able to respond. But everyone I know believes the Earth is many millions if not billions of years old.
Maybe half the evangelical community? Ken Ham and Ray Comfort, of course, are superstars. But listen to American Family Radio for a week and you'll find most of the hosts are Young Earthers. David Wheaton of The Christian Worldview thinks you are not a biblical Christian unless you believe the earth is "more than about 6,500 years old." Alex McFarland, who is very prominent and seemingly intelligent, is a firm Young Earther. It's like some sort of virus, a litmus test as to whether you're a "real" Christian. I may start the Infant Earth cult, whereby all of reality sprang into existence 30 seconds ago. Hey, prove it didn't if you can!
 
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MA2444

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I do think there is a huge amount of pretending, for whatever reason. But this can't be the sole explanation. Some Christians - many, even - do manage to sincerely believe things that strike me as preposterous and that fly in the face of what science and scholarship have established to a level of certainty.

I suspect that most who hold the literalist inerrantist positiion would say the truth of their position is something the Holy Spirit has revealed to them, that it's an indication of a deeper and stronger faith than mine, but I wonder: How many mature Christians have evolved from a position like mine to a positiion of extreme literalism and inerrantism? How many have evolved in the opposite direction? My guess is, the results would be very lopsided. How many, as @St. SteVen suggests in his brainwashing thread, have been indoctrinated into an extreme position and have simply never questioned it or whether they really believe it or are merely pretending?

You sound like me some years ago. I thought exactly how you do here. How can I really believe if I have never seen anything manifest and convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt.

But I noticed that scripture says blessed are those who have not seen and believe. So I thought, how the heck am I supposed to do that?! but I kept thinking and thinking. Other things that are unseen make themselves known to us and I believe in them...? Gravity, temperatures and lots of stuff.

And the scripture gets very Twilight Zone if you try to read it literally. So there's that.
So if I did this thing and looked to the unseen, if I were being honest I would have to say I was pretending because I have not seen, but I can conceive of the unseen.

Scripture also says, that unless we become as a little child that we we wont see the Kingdom of Heaven, right? So there's that. And of course the Lord has always wanted us to have Faith in Him, Trust Him.

So I thought ok if I am to take that literally, I will become as a little child and pretend to do it like a game. Now the childrens games have rules and if the game is the floor is lava, then I act like the floor IS lava. And so I realized that people have always spelled faith, R-I-S-K. So I had to take some sort of risk. Put it in His hands (through prayer). So they next time a bad situation arose in my life, I called upon God and trusted Him to help me.

The bad situation was a doozy. I was self employed and certain times of the year is the slow season and I might be a couple hundred bucks short on my $1000 a month rent. Except the economy was in a slide usually I'd catch the landlord up pretty quick on shortages when a nice job came in. But it was so bad that 100 short here, 200 short there from that month and so forth until it had gotten up to a full $2000 dollars that I was behind in accrued shortages. Well I started having garage sales because I had a big garage so I built two 4' X 8' plywood tables and set it up. Maybe it can help me to help catch up my arrears? And one sunny saturday my landlord rolled in whi=le I was in the garage sale and he gave me my 3 day notice to get out. (Yikes). I also had a $300 utiity shut off notice for next monday (in 2 days). What a great time to trust the Lord for His help, right?! So I sat down and prayed and prayed. Lord help me. You are my only hope here. But I stuck to my guns and did not g friend hopping for loans. I put it in the Lords hands...now we'll see what happens. I took the risk and this was no game to me!

It was getting on dusk by then so I closed up the garage and went back in the house. I go down stairs to the family room and the phone rings. Hi I seen your ad about the garage sale but I am busy right now, can I come see what you have in 1 1/2 hrs? I said sure. All I'd have to do is take him in the garage. He shpwed up right when he said he would and so we went ut to the garage and I opened it and went in and as soon as he came in he asked me, how much do you need? I didn't know what to say to that we hadnt looked at anything yet. So I went into saleman mode and started telling him about different items and pick something up hand it to him and he'd sit it down without a glance at it and ask again, how much do you need? I went (TILT) like a pinball machine. What's that mean? This is a garage sale! He asked me maybe 15 or 20 times, how much do you need. How much do you need? (I wasnt putting 2 +2 together yet!) He asked me and I stood there speechless and suddenly he says, well, how about $1900 for everything on that table right there?

Now I knew that was a joke. It was the old household knick knacks and stuff from a 26 year marriage that she left behind. Junk to me pretty much. I just stood there and looked at him like I was stupid I'm sure because this is not how garage salers act. No one says that stuff. So when he offered me $1900 I didnt answer him, I just looked at him (with my head spinning!). So He says, well then how about $2400 for everything on that table?

Now I didnt know if this was some flea market guy trying t stock some things or what. He didnt look stupid, so I wanted to hear the punch line of this joke! So I said that's fine. And the punch line was he whipped out a stack of 100 dollar bills big enough to choke a horse and counted me out 24 of them. So I took it and was wondering what just happened here, but I went ahead and asked if he wated some help boxing the stuff up and he said yes. SO I grab a couple cardboard boxes and we start putting items in them. I put something in the box I was loading, and he takes it back out of the box and sets it on the table and says, I wont need that, you can keep that. Oh and that and that. And he put so much stuff back on the table that I thought he might be daffy. He just paid for it. He paid 2400 for everything on that table, and then left about 25% of it on the table. (TILT)!!

We loaded him up shook hands and he drove off. I went back inside and on the way down the basement stairs I reach in my pocket and feel the wad of cash and instinctively said, praise the Lord! It hit me right then. I had prayed less than 2 hours ago for hel from the Lord and suddenly a guy is there taking the price up! Lol! That was an angel and an answer to my prayer. I believe that angel restrained me from realizing he was an Angel until after he left. I counted it again and began thinking now I can catch up my rent for 2K, And pay my Utility shut off notice too! That leaves $100? That 100 must be grocery money! So praise the Lord! I trusted Him not seeing Him and He responded lickety split.

Do you now what that did to my faith and belief?! The Lord just sent an Angel to my garage sale to overpay for the help I needed because I prayed for help and did not seek the money elsewhere. So he respnded to that risk of faith that I took. Some game huh?! So I still havent seen anything and yet oh yes do I believe and I dont have to pretend anymore. (That turned out to be a lie, lol) But I didnt see a Angel in spiritual garb or with flaming swords or anything like that. That Angel looked like an ordinary man. Fit. Full beard but trimmed neatly and well spoken. ....continued
 
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