Mark Twain's statement, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so", is false. Faith is believing in something or someone you "know" to be true but can't prove to be true.
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" (Mark Twain).
- Thread starter O'Darby
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
@JBO
I realized something this week when discussing Jesus being sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.
He didn't heal the Canaanite woman's child. Wasn't his calling.
God healed the daughter and INFORMED Jesus of it.
He then reported it to her. Jesus did not do that healing, IMHO
Matthew 15:22-28 NIV
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out,
“Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me!
My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him,
“Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith!
Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
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As you know the quote is false, you overlook the point of the quote.
I didn't really overlook the point of the quote. It is just that there are many who do not think it is false.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
That's an odd thing to say. Why am I not the one to question such things? Doesnt scripture tell us to?
Revelation 1:6
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen..../KJV
So we're kings and priests. What do we do now? As Kings and Priests?
Proverbs 25: 2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter..../KJV
So it seems to say to search out these things? So I'm good.
Colossians 3:2
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth..../KJV
??? It would seem that it is for me to question these things.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
That's a whole topic right there.
Most Christians don't know where the Bible came from.
When, why and how we got it.
But like so many others, you aren't one to question such things.
Maybe I misunderstood to what degree you considered yourself a literalist an inerrantist?
Do you see no contradictions in the Bible? Do you know where the Bible came from?
When Jesus prayed scripture, what Bible was he using?
When Jesus quoted scripture to the crowds, what Bible was he using?
SEPTUAGINT QUOTES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic
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That's a whole topic right there.
Most Christians don't know where the Bible came from.
When, why and how we got it.
But like so many others, you aren't one to question such things.
Good. I misread you. Thanks.
Maybe I misunderstood to what degree you considered yourself a literalist an inerrantist?
Do you see no contradictions in the Bible? Do you know where the Bible came from?
When Jesus prayed scripture, what Bible was he using?
When Jesus quoted scripture to the crowds, what Bible was he using?
SEPTUAGINT QUOTES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic
/
The interesting thing about this passage, to me at least, is the truth or falsity of Jesus' declaration "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." Let's assume it's true, and look at what follows from this: If Jesus healed the daughter, he unilaterally amended his mission. If God healed the daughter, God -- who presumably fashioned Jesus' mission in the first place -- amended the mission.
If, on the other hand, Jesus' statement was false -- as John's gospel suggests many times (“Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world") ("God so loved the world . . .") -- then there was no amendment of the mission at all, his mission was always to save everyone, Gentiles included.
It seems that Paul knew nothing of a general command by Jesus to reach out to Gentiles, else he would have quoted it (particularly to Peter and James). By the time we get to the end of Matthew's gospel and see the general command to the apostles to preach to all the nations -- a command that makes completely inexplicable the events of Acts 10 and 11 -- we need to wonder whether the Great Commission is accurately quoted, or whether the author of Matthew took a bit of license here. (If Christ’s parting words to his disciples before His ascension instructed them to spread the gospel to the Gentiles, wouldn’t you think they’d remember it? Wouldn’t you think that Peter and the brethren in Jerusalem would have embraced rather than questioned the practice of reaching out to the Gentiles? Why, then, their surprise?)
I tend to agree with most of what you say there. However, in His response, "your request is granted" was not done "in faith", but rather in absolute knowledge that it would be done.
For what it is worth, I do not believe that Jesus, as the man, had any more ability to perform miracles in and of himself than did any other human. It was in being filled with the Holy Spirit that Jesus could do such things.
The seven "I am" statements of Jesus in John's gospel were not statements of faith. The were statements of absolute experiential knowledge of the truth.
When Jesus said in John 17:5, "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was", it was not a request of faith in the sense of Hebrews 11:1.
When I hit my thumb with a hammer in an attempt at carpentering, it is not by faith that I know it hurts, it is by actual experiential knowledge that it hurts.
I suspect, but can't prove, that until the events of Acts 10 and 11, the usual thinking even by Peter and the rest was to interpret Jesus' command in Matthew 28 concerning all nations in a context not unlike what existed under the Old Covenant. And that was that a Gentile was first converted to Judaism. Hence the discussion that arose and was recorded in Acts 15. Paul fought against such Judaizers throughout his ministry.
We know that from the very beginning, God's promise to Abraham was not limited to the Jews, no matter what the Jews later thought.
You COULD NOT POSSIBLY be more wrong. Literally 180 degrees, 112% wrong. I know what happened because it always happens. You saw the word "science" in my post and went directly into "I know who he is" mode. To repeat: YOU COULD NOT BE more wrong. I refer you to two of my blog entries with no expectation that you will actually read them.
On at least four occasions that I could regale you with, I have seen the hand of God in my life in complex, multi-faceted, life-changing circumstances that make the experience you describe look like Little League. I'm not minimizing your experience, merely saying you have no idea who I am. I love how nearly everyone on these forums blithely assumes that everyone else is suffering some defect in his or her spirituality and merely needs to be "corrected."
O'Darby's Slightly Odd Testimony
My long and winding journey from being born again to actually believing.
www.christianityboard.com
Knowledge, Certainty, Conviction and Doubt - Epistemology in Christianity
How epistemology relates to Christian belief.
www.christianityboard.com
I thought you said you had read my testimony?
I have been a student and experiencer of the supernatural all my life, at the level of being one of the few American members of the (British) Society for Psychical Reserach and the American Society for Psychical Research.
The supernatural events I have experienced help inform my beliefs but have nothing per se to do with Christianity (with two possible exceptions).
As I just explained to @MA2444, at four critical junctures of my life I have experienced the hand of God in complex, multi-faceted, life-changing ways that certainly seemed inexplicable and miraculous to me.
In every field of the paranormal where people desperately want to believe - including Christianity - one-off supernatural events like angelic visitations and "miracle" healings can have many other explanations. Even for my own experiences, I try to remain rational, dispassionate and even skeptical until forced to conclude that something genuinely anomalous occurred.
As we see on these forums and every forum. especially where the subject is religion, there are large numbers of people who are not thinking clearly or rationally, to put it as charitably as possible. The psychology and dynamics of internet forums have always been more interesting to me than what was actually being said.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
But the message of the Lord to us is so complex, so fragmented that one can spend a lifetime learning it so there's always more room for faith. I have stood there and witnessed supernatural things happe and my carnal still to this day continues to argue that, that wasnt God, that was because, this this and this...You never don't need faith anymore!
So you know exactly what I'm talking about!
I've always liked to read and I say it. So if He did ask me, did you read it? It would be awful embarassing to have to say no!
WHy not?
Well so and so said it isnt reliable, was mistranslated blahblahblah...
And what did I tell you? (Yikes!)
Right. And if direction doesnt come then I suppose you've entered into the rest of the Lord for that day!
That's awesome! Except what do you mean saddle them with it? Like a burden? Brother, this is a privlege! But you're talking about the same thing I was talking about. The way the Lord wrote that letter to you, it was confirmed to as real, it was from God. He revealed Himself to you and what He said to you could not have been written by your Sister. So while you do have your proof, it's not proof that you can prove to anyone else. Thus they must have faith that you speak truely. Make their own choice. That how He is to me also.
I think I have one testimony that is witnessed by two other people. One! Out of a plethora, lol.
That's exactly how the Lord is to me and what He has told me. At first, I used to clear off the passenger set so He had a place to sit, lol! Then I felt like that was probably unnecessary and perhaps stupid because God is a spirit. So I continued to do it as a show of respect! And after that, even that seemed stupid to me. (That was prolly Him too!) I realized that, God is a spirit and He's going to be with me no matter what I do like that. That was a distraction for me sort of. Because He has promised me (In Writing!!) that He will never leave me or forsake me. If scripture is true (and it IS) then clearing off the seat for Him is a distraction away from focusing on Him.
Oh how stupid and slow learners we are, huh? And so when God makes a revelation to us, we instantly are stupid about it and begin turning away from Him inwardly, (That's carnal)and he will never accept the truth, and yet at the same time, we're like, wow, Epiphiny. God showed me this or that, and we delight and revel in it...not realizing that we are only scratching the surface here! I know this in my spirit. So I dont have to pretend anything anymore. But sometimes I do have to tell my carnal man to just shut up! I know the truth. And therein is the battle won or lost. Who do you believe inwardly? Your carnal mind or your spirit?
Be led by the spirit! He has the truth.
To clarify for all, carnal doesnt necessarily mean evil. Carnal means, of the 5 senses. See, hear touch, taste and smell. That's all. So how can it receive the things of the spirit? It can not.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
To who though? To our Carnal man or our spirit? I think a more accurate answer is, it is only true to the carnal man, for that is what the carnal can see and hear.
Of course it is untrue to our spirit man!
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying that I know everything in scripture yet! Most is easy enough to understand but there is a certain percentage of it that can not be understood without knowing the original language and cultural customs at the time it was written with all it's nuances. It happens less and less I think but occassionally I come across something that, seems to be a contradiction to another scripture. And I know it's not so I just don't understand it yet.
I know where the Bible came from. Jesus wrote every word of it. There were earthly authors who wrote it down under inspiration from the Lord.
Our Bible was written over a span of 1500 to 2000 years by about 40 different authors. And it all agrees? That is proof of the Bible right there. It is true. And our God is the God that tells the end from the beginning. He writes history before it happens in that book. So that book came from outside our time domain. It's extraterrestial in nature.
That was a big one for me when I realized it.
@MA2444, @St. SteVen, et al. - FWIW, I just copied this response of mine to an atheist on another board who asked for "signs" that might challenge his materialistic scienfism (worship of science):
You aren't dealing with some uninformed spiritual novice here, folks. I welcome sincere discussion, but I really don't need your "correction."
You aren't dealing with some uninformed spiritual novice here, folks. I welcome sincere discussion, but I really don't need your "correction."
I don't believe you're likely to get anything resembling a convincing answer.
Most responses are likely to be what I might call "one off" responses. "I prayed for X and X happened. It was a miracle." "X appeared to me in a vision. It was from God." "I saw an angel lift my child from a burning car." Etc., etc., yada yada. These are convincing only to the people to whom they happened. There are too many mundane alternative possibilities, from pure coincidence to mental illness on the part of the experiencer and everything in between.
I've had a number of "one off" anomalous experiences that are inconsistent with the materialistic paradigm. Several had objective aspects that weren't within my control - i.e., I didn't produce them (unless my mind is capable of doing things inconsistent with the materialistic paradigm). In every case, I tried to dispassionately evaluate my own mental state and circumstances and consider possible mundane explanations. (In one recent case, I did arrive at an odd but mundane explanation.)
My extensive studies have confirmed that my anomalous experiences are all of types that tens or hundreds of thousands of other sane and credible people have reported. Ergo, they are one key body of evidence that convinces me the materialistic paradigm is simply false and that consciousness survives death. However, I don't interpret any of them as a sign from God per se.
As I've stated elsewhere, the incidents where I have genuinely sensed divine intervention were complex and multi-faceted and all occurred at potentially critical junctures of my life. Even with these, however, they have a "you had to be there" quality that renders them unlikely to be convincing to anyone else. I'll give you one example that will probably just seem tedious.
When I was 42, I walked away from my legal career to join a highly successful, world-famous ministry built around one charismatic leader. Its emphasis was on the mentally and physically disabled. My wife and I thought it was a genuine calling from God. We sold, at a very substantial loss, everything we had, bought an old van to help ferry the disabled, and moved onto the campus of this ministry.
I had been recruited as the future president but we chose to spend a year at a very menial level of service so we would have credibility with the others as well as a better understanding of the ministry. I quickly realized the ministry was a fraud and was victimizing those it was supposed to be helping.
After about three months, I wrote a long and gentle-but-blunt memo to the leader with my observations and suggestions. The very next day, he had two thugs evict us from the premises. I literally fought them off with a baseball bat and filed a criminal complaint.
My wife and I sat in our old van wondering what the hell had just happened. We had virtually nothing but that van. Far from a calling by God, the ministry now seemed like a descent into hell.
Purely on a whim, we pointed the van at a distant town where I had once worked and were thrilled when my wife quickly found a minimum-wage job at a 7-11. I wrote a long letter back to the leader of the ministry. Yes, you ruined my life, I told him, but your day will come. There will be a reckoning for evil like yours.
A few months later, I felt like an OT prophet. The memo I had written to him was taken to the board of directors by another guy in whom I had confided. To everyone's astonishment, the board ousted the leader and his entire family from the ministry they had created. Now, and for many years since the ouster, the ministry is what it always should have been and is highly respected for all the right reasons.
It suddenly made sense that we really had been called by God, but not for the reasons we had thought. We had been called because I had the strength of character to expose the fraud. "But what about me, God?" I wondered.
I contacted an old boss who had become kind of a friend, but he said he had nothing and I started cranking out applications for anything and everything. A couple of days later, he called me back - actually, the company could use my research and writing skills on a huge project. He asked what it would take for me to work as a consultant. I said, "Oh, $15 an hour?" He laughed and said, "Well, I already have approval for $125, so we'll go with that."
I spent the next five months minting money. Then the project was drawing to a close. I started visiting the library and looking at Dallas-area newspapers for attorney openings. One day, I saw a possibility and called. The person doing the hiring "just happened" to be an old classmate I had barely known. "Oh, you don't even have to interview," she said. "Just come on back."
I called the builder of the home we had sold and asked if they had any unsold inventory. "Yeah, we have one exactly like yours the next street over, except it has a fireplace in the corner of the living room," he said. I bought it by fax, sight unseen.
I won't bore you with all the weird ways that things just happened to fall into place, but it was jaw-dropping. In less than a year from first thinking God had called us to the ministry from hell, we were fully restored with a new home, new furniture, a new car and money in the bank.
Not persuasive to anyone else, I realize, but this is one of at least four such experiences at genuinely critical junctures of my life where it truly seemed to me that a protective divine hand was involved. What occurred was a sequence of events just too unlikely to chalk up to luck. Some even involved anomalous aspects.
These complex sequences of events are my "signs from God." Why do others not experience such things, why are others not blessed as I seem to have been? I have no idea, nor do I really care. You are, it seems to me, a lost soul. I doubt you would recognize a sign from God if it bit you on the ass. Neither I nor anyone else really has anything to offer you. What you will discover - or not, as the case may be - is within yourself and between you and the universe. You aren't sincerely looking for "signs" here, and you and everyone else knows it.
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
I dont want to miss this one, lol.
When Jesus prayed scripture He used the Word of God that was written upon His heart.
When Jesus quoted scripture to the crowds He used the scripture that was written on His heart.
He knew the scripture because He had read it before, quite a few times I would suppose.
I had another thought one time...Remember how scrture says that the Holy Spirit will bring to our remembrance the word of God?
John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.,,/KJV
Face it, He said unto us...the entire book of the scriptures. There was a day that I read that again and, bring to your rememberance stuck out to me. In order to "remember" something, then one would have had to read it in the first lace, right?
What if I was oe of those who didnt read the Bible? Would Holy Spirit be able to bring to my rememberance something I had never read or learned? Actually, He probably could, He is God. But it did make me want to read it all (again, in fact!) Just to be on the safe said.
It is written to meditate upon the scriptures, to think on them all the day long, to, write them upon our heart. We have to cooperate and do our part and reading His Instruction Book is playing a Huge part in it. We wont be able to say, Lord I didnt know. He'll say oh yeah, and flip right to the scripture!
He says, come out of the world. Care not for anything of the world. Completely. That means that we never needed the knowledge of evil. So why wont people read that book of Truth, that tells us how to do that?
We write the word of God upon our own heart by reading it, living it, breathing it, dwelling on it, walking in it. Forget about the world. A thousand will fall at your side and on the right side five thousand...and there you are standing with your Lord.
Most people dont even have enough belief to want to read the Bible completely. Faith comes through hearing it (which includes reading it!). Belief comes from walking in it, in your earthly journey.
Good Judgement comes from Experience.
Experience comes from poor Judgement!
I could go on and on! We dont have to pretend anything, people.
Point taken. Still, the Greek word ethnē translated as “nations” in Matt. 28:19 is universally interpreted to include Gentiles―making it a complete reversal of Christ’s earlier instruction to the apostles to reach out only to the Jews (Matt. 10:5-6) and of his prediction that the apostles won’t complete their mission to the Jews before his return (Matt. 10:23).
It strains logic to assume that his disciples could have understood Jesus’ last words to refer to other than Gentiles. Whatever word he spoke to his disciples (in Aramaic?) that got translated as ethnē by the gospel writers, there is no reason to presume a mistranslation.
The tradition of outreach to the Gentiles was so well established by the time the gospels were written that it would be unthinkable not to enshrine the mission with Jesus’ own directive. Mark 13:10 tells us that before the end arrives “The gospel must first be preached to all the nations,” while Mark 14:9 concludes the story of the anointing at Bethany with “Wherever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, what this woman hath done shall be also told, in memory of her,” and it seems unlikely in the extreme that the author intended only a world-wide outreach to Jews. By the time of John’s gospel, the issue is settled: John 1:29 has the Baptist saying “Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world;” John 3:16 admonishes that “God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son;” John 10:16 quotes Jesus as desiring to bring the “other sheep” into the one flock; John 12:20-21 has Greeks asking after Jesus; and so on. These authors are solicitous of a universal religion.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Yes, very interesting.
The passage leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
I see no clear indication that Jesus facilitated the healing.
(only God can heal anyway)
It seems that he only announced it.
Did that facilitate the healing? ???
Seems to me that Father informed him that it had been granted.
If so, Jesus remained on task with his PERSONAL mission.
Reaching those he was sent to minister to.
(why he ignored the Canaanite woman in the first place)
Matthew 15:22-28 NIV
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out,
“Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me!
My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him,
“Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith!
Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
It seems that God had plans for the affect of Jesus' ministry to reach the who world.
But Jesus was limited in what he was supposed to do. His part in the story.
If Jesus had gone into all the world, we would have quite a different story.
A Bible footnote before the Great Commission in Mark 16 states this:
"The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20."
So, it seems to have been added later.
Saul was called to go to the gentiles. Peter took some convincing.
Acts 9:15 NIV
But the Lord said to Ananias,
“Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles
and their kings and to the people of Israel.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Good post, thanks.
It took it that when Jesus said, "Your request is granted." (present tense),
that the daughter was already healed. (delivered)
The confirmation was that she "was healed from that moment."
I'm splitting hairs, but that's how I read it.
Matthew 15:22-28 NIV
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out,
“Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me!
My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him,
“Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith!
Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
/
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