False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[TribulationSigns]

Jesus did cast out devils, He also gave power for His disciples to do that, including those in Christ today. So don't you get it? The casting out devils by His Church is STILL GOING ON TODAY!

For clarification. Are you saying that we can physically cast out devils today, humm?

And of what Jesus showed about His coming Kingdom, that's easy, it is not yet today physically here on earth, but begins on the day of His future return!

No Christ has established His Kingdom at the Cross. Haven't you heard what John wrote?

Rev 1:9
(9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The kingdom of God was already established before John wrote it. Selah!

Christ's Kingdom is here today ONLY IN SPIRIT through His Church.

Humm... so you deny that Christ's kingdom has arrived physically but stubbornly insisted that it is "only in spirit" through His Church? What are you smoking? Do you not realize that the church is physical representation of God's kingdom on earth? Again, haven't you read the Scripture? Are you as blind as the Pharisees too?
Luk 17:20-21
(20) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
(21) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Enough said!

So do you think today's burning of Churches by the wicked would happen if Christ's Kingdom were already here literally? I mean, if someone wants to believe man evolved from a monkey, I guess they can believe that too.

Huh?

You falsely claim I am in spiritual captivity to sin??!?

Only God can answer to that.

And you think you are free while you listen to charlatans who push a FALSE Pre-trib Rapture lie?

Pre-tribulation rapture?? Can you quote me what I said or taught it. Another false accusation and witness coming out of your mouth.

I myself, and others here, have already shown you the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture where Lord Jesus shows His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation. So why don't you believe HIM?

Of course. The Lord will gather His "alive and remain" Saints AFTER the Tribulation. Where did I said that I don't support this? Another false accusation and witness coming out of your mouth.

Nope! Satan is NOT in chains locked in the pit yet today. I've already shown how that is lie, because the Rev.20:1-4 Scripture proves what I say.

Like I said, you do not understand what is spiritual significaiton of the key and great chains. These are not physical objects that hold a spirit. Nor you understand that Satan's power has been restrained for the sake of the Elect during the New Testament period.

What you don't understand is that Jesus came to die on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe

FOR the Saints, yes.

, and BY THAT He defeated the devil and death for us.

FOR the Saints, yes.

HOWEVER... haven't you wondered WHY Satan's wicked servants are still allowed to OPERATE here on earth today?

What do you think?!

And Apostle Peter even gave the Church the following warning, which is still in effect for the Church today...

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
KJV

Duh.

Does that mean Satan today is STILL walking around, as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour?? Yeah!

Yes, and he has since the Cross. Your point is?

So much for you theory from charlatans that Satan is already bound in the pit.

I think the problem is that you insisted that Satan never was bound because he had to walk around as a "free" roaring lion. You missed the point! Satan was like a dog chained to a tree. he is only allowed to attack within his range but the Elect that cannot be harm.

Not yet he ain't.

Okay, that is your opinion that it is not worthy on a piece of paper.

But Jesus gave His servants power over the enemy, like He said in Luke 10, and we are supposed to cast him and his demons away from us in Christ's Name!

How? By physically casting demons out of people with foams in their mouths? Or symbolically help them to open their eyes and ears to spiritual truth and receive the Holy Spirit that cast his spirit of disobedience? Figure it out yourself.

So what your false belief that Satan is already in chains in the pit means, is that you are NOT... doing what Christ told us to do with casting out those devils away from you and your family in His Name.

Huh? You get more and more confused with all the speculations. The purpose of Satan's binding is to allow God to save people through the testimony of the church (Christians). This is what casting out devils signifies. Not light candles in your house, or sprinkle holy water on front door then "speaking in tongues" to cast devil out of your house physically. Where did you get brainwashed from? Hollywood with silly exorcism movies?

You know what that above statement is called? It's an oxymoron, which means one phrase cancels out the other until absolutely nothing said is the result.

No, because you are confused and cannot spiritually discerned what God's Word actually meant.

There is only one time written in God's Word when Satan will be 'bound' in chains in his pit prison, and that is in the Revelation 20 chapter with the day of Christ's future return.

Not true. But that is what Premillennialism believe which is, of course, false.

Yet Satan is still in charge over that bottomless pit, and still today he can come and go as he pleases.

Oh? Satan in charge over the bottomless pit? Sigh...

That... is what Peter meant that Satan "walketh about" still today.

Sigh...read the verse carefully:

1Pe 5:6-8
(6) Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
(7) Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
(8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Do you understand what the Lord is saying here? Sober in this instance means to keep your sense that you are aware that there is an enemy that is out to get you. It means to remain of SOUNT STABLE MIND, that you are always conscious of the wiles of the devil, lest he find an avenue of opportunity. He is always looking for that weak point where he might push. Of course, Satan can tempt or try to deceive God's Elect, but they are protected by God so they will not lose salvation or be deceived.

It's actually the other way around, you try to force the Scripture to say something besides what is written. Imagine if you did something like in the medical field?

Like you know what casting out demons actually means.

I'm simply sticking to the Bible Scripture as written.

Good for you, but do you UNDERSTAND the same (or any) verse that we both read. God judges and I am comfortable with it.

So it's you that doesn't get... IT (meaning The Word of God as written).

Only on the day of Christ's future coming will Satan be bound in his pit prison in chains, as written.................. in Revelation 20!

(Patting on your back sarastically)... yeah, let me know how it goes when Christ returns.

 

[ewq1938]

There is not a single verse that says that the Church is raptured after the tribulation.

I posted two passages that do. It is actually that there is not a single verse teaching a pre-trib rapture. It is not scriptural at all and even Paul spoke against it. There is only apostasia for those who wish to "depart" early.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Looks like you are trying to force... that key into a hole that won't fit.

Could it mean that you do not like hearing the Truth?

The Revelation 20 Scripture is we are shown WHEN Satan will be bound, and locked in his pit prison.

Explain how Satan is "locked in his pit prison" Where? How?

And it is shown at the timing of the "first resurrection".

The first resurrection is Christ HImself and those bring born again in Him. Not future resurreciton.

Well when is the time of the "first resurrection" of Christ's saints? EASY! On the day of Christ's future coming!

LOL!! Do you think you had an easy answer? Because you didn't study Scripture very well or know how to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Do you even know what is the first death before the first resurrection was anyway?

Listen, the first resurrection consists of all the elect, as they are all the 1st Born from the dead, having been raised up with Christ (who is the First Resurrected). That means any and ALL believers have part in His First Resurrection.

Colossians 2:12

• "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

Clearly, we are risen with Him in His First Resurrection, and so it is Biblically untenable to claim that this Resurrection is not the first. Why?

Colossians 1:18

• "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

That's why they are believers precisely "because" they have been raised up in Christ. That 1st resurrection is what put all those souls you read of in Revelation chapter 20 in heaven reigning with Christ. These souls were able to live and reign with Christ because of being in the 1st resurrection.

Acts 26:23

• "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Very Literally in the Greek " The First Resurrected" from the Dead. Therefore, it is untenable to claim that those risen with Christ are not the First Resurrection. Therefore, are they the only First Resurrection (as there is only one First) of the dead delivered from the wrath of God.

1st Thessalonians 1:10

• "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

So then, the "rest of the dead" (who don't have part in this First Resurrection) are raised up at the Second Resurrection. It is because they did not taste the FIRST RESURRECTION, being born again in Christ.

Selah!

The doctrine of men you are trying to push about Satan already being bound comes from a BAD INTERPRETATION of what Jesus said just prior to His being delivered up to be crucified...

John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
KJV

The prince of this world is Satan. He was being cast out at the Cross so the kingdom of God has established through the church and salvation had come. Didn't you read the Scripture?
Rev 12:9-11
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
(11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Let me ask you, when did the salvation begin? Cross or in the future? If in the future, then we are not saved if you believe Satan has yet been bound. You have a big problem!

A bunch of country preachers read that last phrase in red, and made up a theory on it, like Satan was then bound in chains and cast to the pit at the time of Christ's crucifixion.

They are correct.

ut they forgot to read that first phrase of, "Now is the judgment of this world", which obviously HAS NOT YET HAPPENED today, and will not until Jesus returns in the future.

You misunderstood.

This is a contradiction in terms, the Prince of this world that had nothing in Christ that was coming rules over the wicked, not the righteous. And as per Prophesy, it was the wicked who crucified Him, who had nothing in Him, and that silenced Him by arresting Him in Jerusalem. Selah! No, the Prince of this world that had nothing in Christ, was the adversary of Christ, having his own rule, his own kingdom, of which we were previously servants therein. Consider who ruled, who was cast out and why from Christ's own words.

Mark 3:22-27

• "And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the Prince of the Devils casteth he out devils.
• And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
• And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
• And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
• And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
• No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house."

Vis-à-vis, the Prince of Devils is Satan, whom Christ has nothing to do with, whom Christ cast out and spoiled (took his possessions by right of conquest) his house.

John 12:31

• "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Though the death of Christ the world is judged (you, me, everyone else in Christ), and this Prince was "cast out". And when Christ was lifted up from the earth, he now draws all men (specifically the Elect among the world) to Himself because of it. Our judgment was in Christ, our freedom from the captivity of the Prince of this world (mark 3:22-27) is through the work of Christ on the cross. Don't forget that you nailed your sins upon the Cross. That is the judgment of this world. Christ didn't cast out Christ, and Satan didn't cast out Satan, Christ cast out Satan, who has nothing in Him, that he might set the prisoners free. Selah!

And Lo and behold, look what else Jesus said after that, which those country preachers forgot to read!...

John 14:30
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
KJV

Satan cast out? Satan is coming "Hereafter", meaning after Christ's crucifixion? Yes, that is exactly what Jesus was warning them, and us. That casting out is about the future Rev.12:7-9 war in heaven when Satan and his angels will be cast down to our earth for the END, which will involve the time of "great tribulation"! That's the 'casting out' that Jesus was preaching, which at the end of the tribulation will the time of His judgment upon this world.

Obviously, you are confused, man. Read above.

Until then, Satan is still today... roaming around like a lion, among his servants here on earth that worship him, seeking whom he may devour. His minions are still here working on earth too, so cast them away from you in the Name of Jesus Christ.

Tell me, exactly what is his minions to see if you know what you are talking about.

The rest of your post is just mere speculation.

You have not refuted anything honestly!

 

[The Light]

I posted two passages that do. It is actually that there is not a single verse teaching a pre-trib rapture. It is not scriptural at all and even Paul spoke against it. There is only apostasia for those who wish to "depart" early.

In the verses of 1 Thes 4 you inserted second coming several places when it was not the second coming at all. The second coming happens at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Those verses in 1 Thes 4 certainly refer to the rapture of the Church but it occurs before the tribulation as the Church can escape all these things that Jesus mentions in Luke 21.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

In the verses of Matthew 24 we can see that the second coming happens after the great tribulation. HOWEVER THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE CHURCH. There certainly is a rapture, but it's not the Church as they are already in heaven, seen BEFORE the seals are opened. Additionally, we have 144,000 of the 12 tribes that are the first fruits of this harvest. After the Church is raptured pre trib the dragon goes after the seed of the woman which is the 12 tribes across the earth. The Church is gone already as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. God turns His attention to Israel during the final week. When Israel flees to her place of protection the dragon goes after the seed of the woman, the 12 tribes across the earth that now believe in Jesus.

Revelation 12

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

After the Church is raptured in the summer wheat harvest what will Israel say.............?

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The jews will become jealous and realize they have missed the harvest.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

[rebuilder 454]

People believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’, pre, mid, post, or anytime; which shows up the lack of Biblical support and the inability of rapture believers to agree on practically any aspect of that theory.

Where does this idea come from? It isn’t stated anywhere in the Bible and those who promote it must use inferences and assumptions to make verses fit their belief.

But when Jesus Himself tells us that such an idea is impossible, then we know it is just a fable, a false theory, like Paul says; will be prevalent in the latter days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.

Evidence enough that people never go to heaven. Only their souls, after death, go back to the One who made them, where they unconsciously await the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

The whole theory of a rapture to heaven contradicts what we are told that the Lord will do for His people; - protection during the terrible times ahead. Isaiah 41:18, Psalms 91; Isaiah 43:2, 2 Peter 2:9, +
And for those who do stand firm in their faith, who call upon His Name when disaster strikes, there is the promise of tremendous blessings, spiritual and physical to every faithful Christian.

You left out every pretrib rapture verse to "prove" there is no pretrib rapture.

 

[Davy]

I don't have a pre trib teacher. I just read the Word. Most of the teachers I've heard haven't figured out the difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God.

Sorry, I don't believe you. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory is not written anywhere in God's Word, so the only other place to pick up such a false doctrine is from men. And regardless of whether those men write it in a book, or a letter, or a movie, by doing that they are preaching it.

I can prove what you are saying is wrong.......using the Bible. But can I get you to understand? That is the problem.

You can prove my posting of what my Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:29-31, showing His coming is "Immediately after the tribulation..." is wrong?

No, I think others here that DO... believe what Jesus said there, can grasp what you say doesn't line up.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The false Pre-trib Rapture theory is not written anywhere in God's Word

On this one, I agreed.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ok, I'll buy that. So some people need more encouragement to surrender to the Lord Yeshua than others do. The Lord wants to save everybody...but sometimes it takes war to get people to look for the Lord. So it is indeed an act of mercy as you say.

Just like kicking Adam and Eve out of the garden before they could eat the tree of life. Same also at the Tower of Babel when God dispersed the people so they would not have a mass rebellion again. Sometimes we cannot fully understand how Gods mercy works.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hmm... I would submit, Ronald, that God's righteous anger is part of His love... is one manifestation of His love. And that has happened many, many, many times from the Fall until even now... and will until Christ returns.

Grace and peace to you.

Well I would disagree. As God has spent His anger against sin on Jesus, those who have received Jesus will no longer feel any of Gods anger. The lost have His wrath abiding on them as it says in JOhn 3:36.

Gods anger is against teh unrighteous and since we have been made the righteousness of Jesus- there is no more anger for th efollowers of Jesus.

 

[Davy]

False accusation. You have not refuted me with a single verse that proved that I have added to God's Word.

Again NOPE! Satan is still loose today, walking about like Apostle Peter said, a verse I quoted... to you, but you reject (1 Peter 5:8). And you claimed just the opposite of that verse, saying that Satan has already been bound 'in chains'.

To wrongly believe that Satan was 'bound' at the cross in chains is to lie against the Scriptures of Rev.20 which timing shows that is ONLY for the time immediately after Jesus has returned, and His "thousand years" reign begins. Such an idea is suggesting man's false theory of Amillennialism, which doesn't believe Christ will have a future "thousand years" literal reign with His elect or the unsaved.

Simple explanation if you have spiritual understanding according to Luke 11:20-22:

If Satan was not bound since the Cross, we can't be saved. Selah.

In Luke 11, Jesus was being falsely accused of casting out devils through Beelzebub because He had just cast a devil out of the "dumb" person. Then Jesus reveals the fact that He had then come and could do that, that One stronger than Satan was now here, then the kingdom of God has come, but in SPIRIT only until He returns. Jesus said His kingdom is NOT of this world, meaning His future PHYSICAL KINGDOM is not of this present world time...

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is My kingdom not from hence.
KJV

What you say contradicts what Jesus says.

Ideas like Satan has to be 'bound' in chains in order for Christ's Salvation to go into effect is like saying The Father and His Son don't have enough power over Satan even when he is walking about seeking whom he may devour, like Apostle Peter said?

You apparently do not realize that God is USING... Satan upon the rebellious.

And that is why when Jesus returns in the future, Satan will be locked up in chains only then, so the unsaved nations can hear The Gospel without being tempted by him. And then after... the "thousand years", God is going to let Satan loose just once more to go tempt those unsaved. Ain't no soul going to make it into God's future Kingdom unless they've been a proven believer in The Father and The Son.

Of course, it is a wrong interpreation.

The angel (messenger) is Jesus Christ. He had the authority (key) to restrain Satan, signifies a bottomless pit, with great chain because Satan is a strong man, please read Luke 11:20-22 over and over again to get into your thick carnal mind.

No, you're trying to pull rabbits out of your hat. Won't work. The Revelation 20 Scripture is LITERAL. Christ's future reign with His elect of a "thousand years" will be a LITERAL period, and ONLY then will Satan be bound in chains and locked in his pit prison for that period. Then as written there, Satan will be let loose one final time after that "thousand years" to go tempt the unsaved. Sorry you don't agree with that as written, but that's just the way it is.

And NO, Jesus is NOT that angel messenger of Rev.20:1. That angel most likely will be Archangel Michael. Lord Jesus Christ is NOT an angel, but the false Jehovah's Witness cult believes He is. They also wrongly believe Jesus is the Archangel Michael, which also is false. So that's what you're into, huh?

Yes, according to Gospel.

Not so!

The rider on the white horse of the 1st Seal of Rev.6 is about the coming Antichrist, coming to play Christ.

Per those Seals, Jesus does not return until the SIXTH SEAL. So I don't know who has got you all turned around.

I don't listen to any "charlatans". I read the Bible itself. To claim that the white horse need to be antichrist is man-made fantasy per their pre-millennial false doctrine.

Oh, so you do hold to man's false Amillennial doctrines that originated from the 2nd century Gnostics. I knew all along, actually, from some of your wild ideas that are not written.

You should study closely the Matthew 24:23-26 section of verses where Jesus warned His Church about the coming of a false Christ that comes first. Apostle Paul gave the same kind of warning in 2 Thess.2. Jesus again gave warning of that through Apostle John in Rev.13:11 forward. And that coming false-Christ is one of the main end time SIGNS those in Christ are supposed to be watching for!

Huh? Where does it says in Scripture exactly? No where did God sees the beast as white horse!

We can see that you haven't studied that part of God's Word regarding the Bible references I gave in my last paragraph.

How is Christ going to warn us about the coming of a false-Christ trying to play Him by using the 'beast' language? Jesus used the idea of a pseudochristos (Greek for 'false-Christ', and per Strong's Exhaustive Concordance it is rendered "a spurious Messiah").

How is it that you don't know just what... sin... Lucifer did in the old world when he fell?

Lucifer coveted God's Throne Whom it was Lucifer's job to guard (Ezekiel 28). That's what the idea of a 'covering cherub' means. Lucifer wanted to BE GOD, and worshiped AS GOD. And that is what he is coming to do once again, in Jerusalem, in the last days before Jesus returns. That is why the 1st Seal rider on a white horse is a MIMIC of Christ coming on a white horse. But per that Rev.6 Chapter, Jesus comes on the 6th Seal, because those on earth show that is His wrath coming upon them on that 6th Seal, and that is an event to occur only on the day Jesus returns.

LOL. Actually, it is the SAME Jesus Christ. SAME white horse! Christ went out as a white horse conquering and TO CONQUER through His church by spoiling (saving) His people. Not "temporary conquer" of antichrist. And in Revelation 19, Christ came with the Saints whom he spoiled! There won't be two white horse, nor Revelation 6 states the antichrist will come "LIKE" a white horse. No, God said it is the white horse identified with Christ!

You are actually laughing at Lord Jesus, because He is trying to warn brethren about the coming false-Christ on that 1st Seal. And it's actually EASY to know that 1st Seal rider is a FAKE, because he has only ONE CROWN, and that "bow" in the Greek is the word 'toxon' which means 'a bow of cheap fabric'. That AIN'T... Lord Jesus Christ! And all one need do is compare Jesus' coming on a white horse per the Revelation 19 Chapter. Thus you reveal you aren't familiar about that in Rev.19 either.

Yep!

So what? Now you agree that 1st Seal rider on the white horse is NOT Jesus?

Silly you. Jesus established his kingdom at the Cross with one crown. In the end, He ended up getting MANY crowns because His saints gave their crowns to him (Revelation 4:10). That is why Christ is the King of kings! Haven't you read the Scripture?

Well, you just LEFT the subject of the 1st Seal rider coming to MIMIC Jesus' coming. I need not respond to that.

 

[Davy]

For clarification. Are you saying that we can physically cast out devils today, humm?

You mean you didn't know that??? You haven't even read that Luke 10 Chapter, have you?

You truly need a good Bible teacher, because I can already see how you are straying left on your own, since you claimed before that what you say you didn't get from any preacher.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well I would disagree.

I have no problem with that. But anger ~ and even hate ~ is not incompatible with or opposed to love.

As God has spent His anger against sin on Jesus....

Ah, well, I would disagree with "spent," really, if you mean He totally exhausted His anger on Jesus... But even so, if the Father "spent His anger on Jesus" (whatever that means), then does that mean the Father didn't love Jesus? Or to refer to something the Father said of the Son earlier during Jesus's public ministry, was the Father at some point no longer well-pleased with Jesus? The answer is a resounding no...

...those who have received Jesus will no longer feel any of Gods anger. The lost have His wrath abiding on them as it says in JOhn 3:36.

I disagree with your first sentence here, and actually would clarify that to say they should no longer feel God's condemnation, because, as Paul tells us, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1).

I agree with the second sentence, the key phrase there being 'abiding on them,' which seems to be in accordance with the idea of condemnation.

Gods anger is against the unrighteous and since we have been made the righteousness of Jesus- there is no more anger for the followers of Jesus.

Well, anger in the sense of condemnation, sure. But anger and love are not incompatible or mutually exclusive... it is very possible to be angry ~ even very angry ~ but still be loving. Just personally speaking, I can get (and have gotten, from time to time) quite angry at my son, but that does not mean my love for my son has ever waned. And I can say that my anger has at least to some extent been because of my love for him. That is fully ~ and always ~ the case with our holy (and sinless, of course) God.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

Sorry, I don't believe you. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory is not written anywhere in God's Word, so the only other place to pick up such a false doctrine is from men. And regardless of whether those men write it in a book, or a letter, or a movie, by doing that they are preaching it.

It gives you confidence because you see the error in those that claim a pretrib rapture. You claim that the rapture is immediately after the tribulation. What you don't see is that there are two raptures. The Lord is truly coming when you think not.

You can prove my posting of what my Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:29-31, showing His coming is "Immediately after the tribulation..." is wrong?

No, I think others here that DO... believe what Jesus said there, can grasp what you say doesn't line up.

Yeah I decimated your posts with scriptural facts and you were unable to respond. All you can come up with is a weak strawman argument? PLEASE.

 

[Keraz]

You left out every pretrib rapture verse to "prove" there is no pretrib rapture.

There is no pre-trib rapture verse.
It is only by assumption and guesswork, how that false doctrine is made up.

Your posts here display an arrogance and a rude putting down of any contradictions to your beliefs. For the sake of your own soul, I suggest you take a step back and really evaluate what it is the Lord requires of His followers.
Is it to sit in heaven doing harp practice? Or is it to keep up our task of spreading the Gospel? Matthew 28:20

 

[Keraz]

What you don't see is that there are two raptures. The Lord is truly coming when you think not.

This is fanciful nonsense, from the dreamers and the deceived.
The Prophesies which say the Lord will come unexpectedly, all refer to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, a sudden and shocking, one Day event, that will set the stage for all the end time things as Prophesied before Jesus Returns.

 

[ewq1938]

In the verses of 1 Thes 4 you inserted second coming several places when it was not the second coming at all.

Wrong. Each was a reference to the second coming.

 

[Douggg]

I posted two passages that do. It is actually that there is not a single verse teaching a pre-trib rapture. It is not scriptural at all and even Paul spoke against it. There is only apostasia for those who wish to "depart" early.

The "possibility" that the rapture take place right this very second is in Mathew 24:37-51.

The emphasis of being ready is in verse 44.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

While we can't say that the rapture will happen on a certain day nor hour, we should approach life that it could take place at anytime.

 

[The Light]

Wrong. Each was a reference to the second coming.

This is the second coming. It occurs AT THE 6TH SEAL, as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. It occurs immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God. This is the fruit harvest as shown by the grapes being cast into the wrath of God.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In the second coming the Lord sends His angels at the Last Trump which is blown on the feast of trumpets. The dead and alive are changed at the same time.

1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When the Lord returns for the Church, the Lord himself comes as He is coming for His bride. The dead are raised first and go to heaven with the Lord. This is the barley harvest. The Lord will return for the ALIVE THAT REMAIN which will be the wheat harvest. So the dead and alive are not changed at the same time. This happens at the trump of God or voice of God.


1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There are differences in these scriptures for a reason.

 

[The Light]

The "possibility" that the rapture take place right this very second is in Mathew 24:37-51.

The emphasis of being ready is in verse 44.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

While we can't say that the rapture will happen on a certain day nor hour, we should approach life that it could take place at anytime.

Both raptures will happen on a feast day.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have no problem with that. But anger ~ and even hate ~ is not incompatible with or opposed to love.

Well you have a real problem with god then, for He both loves and hates.

John 3:16

King James Version

​

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36

King James Version

​

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Ah, well, I would disagree with "spent," really, if you mean He totally exhausted His anger on Jesus... But even so, if the Father "spent His anger on Jesus" (whatever that means), then does that mean the Father didn't love Jesus? Or to refer to something the Father said of the Son earlier during Jesus's public ministry, was the Father at some point no longer well-pleased with Jesus? T

The Father loves Jesus. but at that point in time on the cross (the second three hours approx.) Jesus became sin and god punished Jesus as sin. that is why Jesus cried "My god, My God, why have you abandoned me.?"

If you can fully wrap your head around that dichotomy, good for you.

I disagree with your first sentence here, and actually would clarify that to say they should no longer feel God's condemnation, because, as Paul tells us, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1).

Well god will never pour anger out on His children. Our sin was transferred on Jesus, and His righteousness was applied to our account.

Well, anger in the sense of condemnation, sure. But anger and love are not incompatible or mutually exclusive... it is very possible to be angry ~ even very angry ~ but still be loving. Just personally speaking, I can get (and have gotten, from time to time) quite angry at my son, but that does not mean my love for my son has ever waned. And I can say that my anger has at least to some extent been because of my love for him. That is fully ~ and always ~ the case with our holy (and sinless, of course) God.

Well we are finite fallen humans and to attribute to god what we do is foolishness. What God does is perfect and that includes His love and never ending anger!

God knows who will not get saved and that is why His wrath continually abides on them.