Flesh VS Spirit

[Enoch111]

We have the mind of Christ.

That does not automatically translate into sinless perfection in Christians.

1 JOHN 1 & 2 (ADDRESSED TO CHILDREN OF GOD)
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also forthe sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So John would say Lady, you are somewhat mistaken.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Why must you reckon yourself dead to sin if it isn't a problem?

God is the Great Psychiatrist! LOL What you say about turning away from temptation and all that is fine with me. I agree. Even though the sin nature is dead, you can resurrect it by choosing a different master. OSAS is a myth.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That does not automatically translate into sinless perfection in Christians.

1 JOHN 1 & 2 (ADDRESSED TO CHILDREN OF GOD)
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also forthe sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So John would say Lady, you are somewhat mistaken.

No, John agrees with me, or I should say, I agree with him, because I know what he means. You underline the two verses in 1 John 1 that are to be read together in context. 8 is before Christ. 9 is how to become a Christian.

You must understand John by the context of the whole epistle. Look at 1 John 4:1-3 and see what he was actually addressing from chapter 1. Those Gnostics were infiltrating the church, even his own congregation, but they weren't saved, and saw no need to confess sins they didn't believe were sins. It all came down to sins of the flesh vs. sins of the spirit. They didn't believe sins of the flesh were sins at all, only sins of the spirit, because Jesus only came in spirit, not in the flesh.

But don't accept John, you have your own teachers that tell you what you want to hear, and cannot understand 1 John 3:9 that contradicts what you think 1 John 1:8 means.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Two people working on the idea that God changes the sinful nature.

But in the end they both come down to an idea that their flesh no longer sins and it is because of what they do, or do not do.

An idea that God has set them free only to become slaves to their sinful nature of which they, by their work of resisting sins, no longer do.

They wish to establish their own righteousness rather than accept God's righteousness freely given to those who trust in Him.

Religious men/women trust in themselves and their ability. But the children of God only trust in God.

I have had my say and will not argue,

bye.

1 Corinthians 14:38

 

[Enoch111]

You must understand John by the context of the whole epistle. Look at 1 John 4:1-3 and see what he was actually addressing from chapter 1. Those Gnostics were infiltrating the church, even his own congregation...

John says *MY LITTLE CHILDREN*. He does not say *MY ENEMIES THE GNOSTICS*.

This epistle is NOT addressed to Gnostics but genuine children of God. So what you are now doing (as have many others) is FALSIFYING THE WITNESS OF JOHN AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. That is a sin in itself.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

John says *MY LITTLE CHILDREN*. He does not say *MY ENEMIES THE GNOSTICS*.

This epistle is NOT addressed to Gnostics but genuine children of God. So what you are now doing (as have many others) is FALSIFYING THE WITNESS OF JOHN AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. That is a sin in itself.

My little children are Christians, yes. But that is after 1 John 1:8-9. You better be careful who you are accusing, for you are the guilty one here twisting John's meaning.

 

[Nancy]

The old man is dead, we were crucified with Christ. Sin is like a parasite that lives inside us. The flesh and Spirit are always warring against one another. We are new creatures in Christ so, there is no two different natures. There is a constant war but, as you said, @Dave L we renew our minds and take captive every thought...I do this as well. I do believe a saved person can fall into sin and that falling into sin and living in it are two totally different things. I have a very hard time believing, despite having the Holy Spirit within us now that we will become sinless in this world, and just perfect little Christ's...if that is true...then I just might not be saved. Outward, intentional sin, as I once upon a time did live IN, has been gone a long time ago. I feel my sin is more like thoughts or attitudes. Sin is sin. We must hate it like God hates it but, I do not think we humans win every battle every time. Good thing we don't have to wonder who won the war though

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The old man is dead, we were crucified with Christ. Sin is like a parasite that lives inside us. The flesh and Spirit are always warring against one another. We are new creatures in Christ so, there is no two different natures. There is a constant war but, as you said, @Dave L we renew our minds and take captive every thought...I do this as well. I do believe a saved person can fall into sin and that falling into sin and living in it are two totally different things. I have a very hard time believing, despite having the Holy Spirit within us now that we will become sinless in this world, and just perfect little Christ's...if that is true...then I just might not be saved. Outward, intentional sin, as I once upon a time did live IN, has been gone a long time ago. I feel my sin is more like thoughts or attitudes. Sin is sin. We must hate it like God hates it but, I do not think we humans win every battle every time. Good thing we don't have to wonder who won the war though

Hi Nancy, We must look at sin the way God sees sin, not the terminology of denominations, but of Scripture. To Him, it is not "sin is sin" as if all sin is the same. That is denominational terminology, especially in liberal denominations that preach against sinless perfection. What you called "intentional sin" are sins unto death. To those denominations that say "sin is sin" ALL sin to them is intentional. Wrong.

Intentional sin or you will hear me say "willful sin" according to Hebrews 10:26 is what John is talking about in 1 John 3:9. Those old cravings are gone in a true Christian, as they are gone in you. But there are sins NOT unto death that have to do with maturity of the fruit of the Spirit. Thoughts and attitudes. 1 John 1:7 shows a person walking in the light (or Spirit), but at the end of the verse you see that even though they are walking in the light they are still committing some sins that are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus. What kind of sins don't require repentance? Trespasses.

Trespasses are sins but they are unwittingly or unintentionally committed. Huge difference in the eyes of God. Only these sins are in the Lord's Prayer - not intentional sins. And these sins are automatically cleansed as we forgive others their slights against us.

Sinless perfection
All sins are cleansed and taken away at conversion including the sin nature - sinless.
All trespasses are automatically cleansed even though we unwittingly commit them - sinless.

In 1 John 2:1 you will see that John is saying it is POSSIBLE to be sinless, unlike those who contradict him and reason it is impossible. Our Advocate cleanses our trespasses. You will note that no repentance is mentioned as if they were willful sins that require repentance. Why? Because it is impossible for a true Christian to commit sins unto death. 1 John 5 even says to not even bother praying for someone sinning unto death. And remember those are willful sins. Hebrew 10 even says what more sacrifice is there? In the Old Testament they killed them because there was no sacrifice for willful sin. The Old Testament, our schoolmaster lets you plainly see and learn God's attitude on sin, especially in Numbers 15:22-36.

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy, We must look at sin the way God sees sin, not the terminology of denominations, but of Scripture. To Him, it is not "sin is sin" as if all sin is the same. That is denominational terminology, especially in liberal denominations that preach against sinless perfection. What you called "intentional sin" are sins unto death. To those denominations that say "sin is sin" ALL sin to them is intentional. Wrong.

Intentional sin or you will hear me say "willful sin" according to Hebrews 10:26 is what John is talking about in 1 John 3:9. Those old cravings are gone in a true Christian, as they are in gone in you. But there are sins NOT unto death that have to do with maturity of the fruit of the Spirit. Thoughts and attitudes. 1 John 1:7 shows a person walking in the light (or Spirit), but at the end of the verse you see that even though they are walking in the light they are still committing some sins that are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus. What kind of sins don't require repentance? Trespasses.

Trespasses are sins but they are unwittingly or unintentionally committed. Huge difference in the eyes of God. Only these sins are in the Lord's Prayer - not intentional sins. And these sins are automatically cleansed as we forgive others their slights against us.

Sinless perfection
All sins are cleansed and taken away at conversion including the sin nature - sinless.
All trespasses are automatically cleansed even though we unwittingly commit them - sinless.

In 1 John 2:1 you will see that John is saying it is POSSIBLE to be sinless, unlike those who contradict him and reason it is impossible. Our Advocate cleanses our trespasses. You will note that no repentance is mentioned as if they were willful sins that require repentance. Why? Because it is impossible for a true Christian to commit sins unto death. 1 John 5 even says to not even bother praying for someone sinning unto death. And remember those are willful sins. Hebrew 10 even says what more sacrifice is there? In the Old Testament they killed them because there was no sacrifice for willful sin. The Old Testaments, our schoolmaster lets you can plainly see and learn God's attitude on sin, especially in Numbers 15:22-36.

"We must look at sin the way God sees sin..." Yes, and we as Christians should hate as God hates it.

Hi Nancy, We must look at sin the way God sees sin, not the terminology of denominations, but of Scripture. To Him, it is not "sin is sin" as if all sin is the same. That is denominational terminology, especially in liberal denominations that preach against sinless perfection. What you called "intentional sin" are sins unto death. To those denominations that say "sin is sin" ALL sin to them is intentional. Wrong.

Intentional sin or you will hear me say "willful sin" according to Hebrews 10:26 is what John is talking about in 1 John 3:9. Those old cravings are gone in a true Christian, as they are in gone in you. But there are sins NOT unto death that have to do with maturity of the fruit of the Spirit. Thoughts and attitudes. 1 John 1:7 shows a person walking in the light (or Spirit), but at the end of the verse you see that even though they are walking in the light they are still committing some sins that are automatically cleansed by the blood of Jesus. What kind of sins don't require repentance? Trespasses.

Trespasses are sins but they are unwittingly or unintentionally committed. Huge difference in the eyes of God. Only these sins are in the Lord's Prayer - not intentional sins. And these sins are automatically cleansed as we forgive others their slights against us.

Sinless perfection
All sins are cleansed and taken away at conversion including the sin nature - sinless.
All trespasses are automatically cleansed even though we unwittingly commit them - sinless.

In 1 John 2:1 you will see that John is saying it is POSSIBLE to be sinless, unlike those who contradict him and reason it is impossible. Our Advocate cleanses our trespasses. You will note that no repentance is mentioned as if they were willful sins that require repentance. Why? Because it is impossible for a true Christian to commit sins unto death. 1 John 5 even says to not even bother praying for someone sinning unto death. And remember those are willful sins. Hebrew 10 even says what more sacrifice is there? In the Old Testament they killed them because there was no sacrifice for willful sin. The Old Testaments, our schoolmaster lets you can plainly see and learn God's attitude on sin, especially in Numbers 15:22-36.

Hi 1st.
I do want to respond to this post but, I have had so many interruptions as there is allot going on here...but...I WILL respond BTW-yes, we need to hate sin as God does, and I should not have worded "sin is sin" as I did...I will come back on later tonight ♥

 

[1stCenturyLady]

"We must look at sin the way God sees sin..." Yes, and we as Christians should hate as God hates it.

Hi 1st.
I do want to respond to this post but, I have had so many interruptions as there is allot going on here...but...I WILL respond BTW-yes, we need to hate sin as God does, and I should not have worded "sin is sin" as I did...I will come back on later tonight ♥

Great. I'll read it tomorrow. I've got a good book waiting for me, so its off to bed.

 

[Nancy]

Great. I'll read it tomorrow. I've got a good book waiting for me, so its off to bed.

Good morning 1st,
It is still hard for me to understand how ALL sin is not intentional-unless you are living IN it, a lifestyle. And, as He looks to our hearts He knows what our intentions are so, can you give me an example of an "unintended" or "un-willful"sin/transgression/trespass? If it is something that somebody totally un-awares commits, how then can they be held accountable?

There is no way that I can accept that ANY Christian can ever walk this earth perfectly sinless. Big, small, transgressions or trespasses -all unrighteousness is sin. Admittedly, there is not a lot of knowledge in the old noggin here to truly understand all of this. Especially the "sin unto death". Spiritual death? Physical? The worst sin I can think of in the bible is the un-forgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. And, for an unbeliever ALL sin/trespass/transg. ARE unto death as, they do not have Jesus.

"1 John 5 even says to not even bother praying for someone sinning unto death." I can understand John telling them not to pray for forgiveness or mercy for the sinning unbelievers but, should we not pray for repentance on their part?

"Hebrew 10 even says what more sacrifice is there?" Is the author here, speaking about the saved leaving and walking back into the world? Could this just be saying that they will find salvation in no other place than Jesus and, that if repented of, their sin would be forgiven?
So, I know I am not scholarly, ha...there is much here to look into. Thank you and God Bless!

 

[Dave L]

God is the Great Psychiatrist! LOL What you say about turning away from temptation and all that is fine with me. I agree. Even though the sin nature is dead, you can resurrect it by choosing a different master. OSAS is a myth.

Possibly we have a conflict of terms. Sin nature = flesh/mind/ catering to the cravings of the body and warring against us (our born-again spirit baptized in the Holy Spirit). But we force the flesh to serve us while it tries to force us to serve it as we once did.

“O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Romans 7:24)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

“O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Romans 7:24)

The answer to that question is given right there. Jesus. So why would you ask it? The preceding verses are all about sin in the flesh vs. knowledge of the law. The sin in the flesh is unto death. Romans 7 is mankind WITH the law, but WITHOUT Jesus. That is why the question is asked at the end of that. Sin in the flesh is our sin nature. Jesus has cured that by taking us out of the sin nature and into the Spirit - now, while we are living and walking in the Spirit. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED me from the law of sin and death." Jesus freed us from our sin nature inherited from Adam's sin. Those who have been baptized in the Spirit can relate to this. Those who have not been baptized in the Spirit still experience weakness of the flesh nature, and all this talk of sinlessness is foolishness to them.

 

[Dave L]

The answer to that question is given right there. Jesus. So why would you ask it? The preceding verses are all about sin in the flesh vs. knowledge of the law. The sin in the flesh is unto death. Romans 7 is mankind WITH the law, but WITHOUT Jesus. That is why the question is asked at the end of that. Sin in the flesh is our sin nature. Jesus has cured that by taking us out of the sin nature and into the Spirit - now, while we are living and walking in the Spirit. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ has FREED me from the law of sin and death." Jesus freed us from our sin nature inherited from Adam's sin. Those who have been baptized in the Spirit can relate to this. Those who have not been baptized in the Spirit still experience weakness of the flesh nature, and all this talk of sinlessness is foolishness to them.

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Good morning 1st,
It is still hard for me to understand how ALL sin is not intentional-unless you are living IN it, a lifestyle. And, as He looks to our hearts He knows what our intentions are so, can you give me an example of an "unintended" or "un-willful"sin/transgression/trespass? If it is something that somebody totally un-awares commits, how then can they be held accountable?

There is no way that I can accept that ANY Christian can ever walk this earth perfectly sinless. Big, small, transgressions or trespasses -all unrighteousness is sin. Admittedly, there is not a lot of knowledge in the old noggin here to truly understand all of this. Especially the "sin unto death". Spiritual death? Physical? The worst sin I can think of in the bible is the un-forgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. And, for an unbeliever ALL sin/trespass/transg. ARE unto death as, they do not have Jesus.

"1 John 5 even says to not even bother praying for someone sinning unto death." I can understand John telling them not to pray for forgiveness or mercy for the sinning unbelievers but, should we not pray for repentance on their part?

"Hebrew 10 even says what more sacrifice is there?" Is the author here, speaking about the saved leaving and walking back into the world? Could this just be saying that they will find salvation in no other place than Jesus and, that if repented of, their sin would be forgiven?
So, I know I am not scholarly, ha...there is much here to look into. Thank you and God Bless!

Matthew 5: 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

This verse came to mind as far as trespasses. Hurting someone's feelings. In the Old Testament they were not to touch any dead unclean animal, so what if they stepped on a dead mouse in the sand. That would be done unintentionally, and maybe even without your knowledge. It is still sin, but not unto death. They had a sacrifice for cleansing of those type sins. Interestingly, in that sacrifice there is grain and drink reminiscent of the Lord's Supper (Numbers 15:22-36 you see the sacrifice for unintentional sins vs. the killing of the person who commits a willful sin). You have to understand, we are not perfect in our own eyes. We see our faults, we even accept the faults of others as our standards are not the same as God's. Being sarcastic is a trespass not unto death. But God is so holy, anything that is not 100% holy is glaringly obvious by contrast. That is why we have an advocate to bring us up to where God can bear looking at us. Jesus cleanses us of our trespasses as we forgive others theirs against us.

Ask God to teach you the difference, as I'm not doing a good job of it.

I hope you can find the difference between willful sins and unintentional trespasses, because willful sins are unto death. In the Old Testament not even the blood of bulls and goats could cover willful sins - they just killed them or put them out of the camp, but they could not remain inside the camp. Only Jesus' blood took away the willful sins of the unsaved, justifying them. But after sanctification Paul gave a harsh warning against sinning willfully when you've been given the powerful Spirit of Grace in order to not sin. Hebrews 10:26-39

Leviticus 5:15 “If a person commits a trespass, and sins unintentionally in regard to the holy things of the Lord, then he shall bring to the Lord as his trespass offering a ram without blemish from the flocks, with your valuation in shekels of silver according to the shekel of the sanctuary, as a trespass offering.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16)

Exactly.

 

[CoreIssue]

Flesh is our carnal worldly nature. It has no mind.

The spirit is where we are found and is not worldly.

The mind is where they meet and conflict.

The spirit is born again, not the flesh, or mind. But being born again changes the conflict of the two thus the mind.

At the resurrection the flesh is glorified, thus the mind becomes pure.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Flesh is our carnal worldly nature. It has no mind.

The spirit is where we are found and is not worldly.

The mind is where they meet and conflict.

The spirit is born again, not the flesh, or mind. But being born again changes the conflict of the two thus the mind.

At the resurrection the flesh is glorified, thus the mind becomes pure.

That's silly. The sins of the flesh START in the mind. Our mind is also born again.

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:16
For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[farouk]

That's silly. The sins of the flesh START in the mind. Our mind is also born again.

1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:16
For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Romans 8 has a great account of how the spirit should take precedence in faith over the flesh.

 

[soul man]

You are not born again if you remain in sin.

Hi Dave, I enjoy your writing but this is really a stout and bold statement. I understand your train of thought and have heard it many times, it seems to be the answer given to Christians sinning, js.