No. God knowing Jeremiah before he was born does not make Jeremiah to exist, not until he was born. If there be any relationship in that, it could only be real with God but not yet with Jeremiah.
Tong
R2429
For free will believers out there
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Tong
R2429
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Essentially you are saying that God is not all knowing, not all powerful etc since He is bound by His creation of time.
Is there something that God cannot do?
I became aware of it the first time I heard it from the pulpit.
It was fishy from the git-go.
You are a bad detective.
What I said in my post does not say in any way, shape, or form that God is not all knowing, or not powerful etc.
<<<Is there something that God cannot do?>>>
God is able to do any and all things.
Tong
R2431
Not because some pastor said that, proves what you suspect or even accuse of modern translations, of Greek dictionaries and lexicons.
Tong
R2432
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I've read your posts. You just think you can have it both ways, which shows just how twisted you are. Like in post #773 you said, "It is scriptures, not me, who says that Him who became flesh is the Word, who was God." Right here you're saying the Word is God that became flesh(human) then you say in the same post, "And it scriptures that said that the Word who became flesh is the Only begotten Son of God." So what is it you believe Tong, do you believe the Word is God, and it was God who beame flesh(human), or, do you believe the Word is, the Only Begotten Son of God and it was the Only Begotten Son of God who became flesh(human). You're saying and that it's was both God and the Only Begotten Son of God that the Word is both God and the Only Begotten Son of God who became flesh(human)
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Jesus claimed to be the Son of God (John 3:16, John 5:25, 9:35-38, 10:36, 11:4, see also Matthew 22:41-46). Certain of the Jews regarded His claim as blasphemous (Mark 14:60-65 John 10:36).
They knew He was claiming to be God (John 5:18, 10:30-33).
It was this claim of Sonship He was challenged with at His trial (Matthew 26:63, Luke 22:70).
The Jews said His claims made Him worthy of death (Mark 14:64, John 19:7, see also John 8:56-59).
Jesus was mocked for claiming to be the Son of God (Matthew 27:40-43).
It was on this point of Sonship with God that Satan challenged Christ in the wilderness (Matthew 4:3-6, Luke 4:3-9). John wrote his gospel with the inspired purpose of showing Christ to be the Son of God (John 20:31).
He does not say he wrote his gospel to prove that Christ is God although he does say that Christ, in His preexistence, was “with God” and “was God” (John 1:1). This is the very essence of the begotten concept.
The Scriptures tell us that Christ is the “express image” of God’s person (Hebrews 1:3) - also that He is “the image” of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). Jesus referred to Himself as the only begotten of God (John 3:16). He said very plainly that He is the Son of God (John 9:35-38). The Jews understood Him perfectly (John 19:7). The disciples acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God (Matthew 14:33, 16:16, John 1:49, 11:26). So too, at His death, did the Roman centurion and others (Matthew 27:54, Mark 15:39). The Father testified that Jesus is His Son (Matthew 3:16-17, 17:5). This must be regarded as of the utmost importance. What greater witness could there be? In fact Peter, when confessing Christ to be “the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16), was told by Jesus that it was not “flesh and blood” that had revealed this to him but God the Father (Matthew 16:17). The demons also addressed Jesus as the Son of God. They certainly knew His identity (Matthew 8:29, Mark 3:11, 5:7, Luke 4:41). The man in the tombs possessed of a devil also called Christ the Son of God (Luke 8:27-29). John, in the opening of his gospel, said that Christ was the only begotten of God therefore He (Christ) was the only One who could declare God (John 1:18). Philip taught the Ethiopian eunuch that Christ was the Son of God (Acts 8:37). The first thing Paul taught after his 'blindness' was that Christ is the Son of God (Acts 9:20). His continuing theme was that God had sent His Son into the world (Romans 1:4, 8:3, 32, 2 Corinthians 1:19, Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 4:13 etc.). Not surprisingly, John's little letters, as does the book of Hebrews, constantly refer to Christ as the Son of God (1 John 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:10, 5:12-13, 5:20, Hebrews 4:14, 6:6, 7:3, 10:29). That Christ is the Son of God was also the testimony of John the Baptist (John 1:3233). It is not surprising therefore that we find Jesus praying to His Father saying “… Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:1-3
This is exactly the opposite of what most trinitarians are claiming. As a trinitarian you say “Jesus Christ is the TRUE GOD, the Almighty God! not just the Father alone”. “They both [the Father and Jesus] are the True God…” Regardless of what these say , Jesus made it very clear that His Father is the “only [Gr. monos] true God”. This is why these two divine persons are not to be confused with each other. In personality, Christ is not the one true God although He is, because He is begotten of the Father, the personification (the express image) of the one true God. He is the personality of the Father revealed (Hebrews 1:3, John 1:1-3, 14-18, Colossians 1:15). He is the divine Son of the infinite God. it is just as though He is God’s second self.
I would conclude, although there is much much more which can be said, that a denial of the trinity does not necessitate a denial of the divinity of Christ. Nor does the acceptance of the divinity of Christ mean one must accept the trinity also.
They knew He was claiming to be God (John 5:18, 10:30-33).
It was this claim of Sonship He was challenged with at His trial (Matthew 26:63, Luke 22:70).
The Jews said His claims made Him worthy of death (Mark 14:64, John 19:7, see also John 8:56-59).
Jesus was mocked for claiming to be the Son of God (Matthew 27:40-43).
It was on this point of Sonship with God that Satan challenged Christ in the wilderness (Matthew 4:3-6, Luke 4:3-9). John wrote his gospel with the inspired purpose of showing Christ to be the Son of God (John 20:31).
He does not say he wrote his gospel to prove that Christ is God although he does say that Christ, in His preexistence, was “with God” and “was God” (John 1:1). This is the very essence of the begotten concept.
The Scriptures tell us that Christ is the “express image” of God’s person (Hebrews 1:3) - also that He is “the image” of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). Jesus referred to Himself as the only begotten of God (John 3:16). He said very plainly that He is the Son of God (John 9:35-38). The Jews understood Him perfectly (John 19:7). The disciples acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God (Matthew 14:33, 16:16, John 1:49, 11:26). So too, at His death, did the Roman centurion and others (Matthew 27:54, Mark 15:39). The Father testified that Jesus is His Son (Matthew 3:16-17, 17:5). This must be regarded as of the utmost importance. What greater witness could there be? In fact Peter, when confessing Christ to be “the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16), was told by Jesus that it was not “flesh and blood” that had revealed this to him but God the Father (Matthew 16:17). The demons also addressed Jesus as the Son of God. They certainly knew His identity (Matthew 8:29, Mark 3:11, 5:7, Luke 4:41). The man in the tombs possessed of a devil also called Christ the Son of God (Luke 8:27-29). John, in the opening of his gospel, said that Christ was the only begotten of God therefore He (Christ) was the only One who could declare God (John 1:18). Philip taught the Ethiopian eunuch that Christ was the Son of God (Acts 8:37). The first thing Paul taught after his 'blindness' was that Christ is the Son of God (Acts 9:20). His continuing theme was that God had sent His Son into the world (Romans 1:4, 8:3, 32, 2 Corinthians 1:19, Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 4:13 etc.). Not surprisingly, John's little letters, as does the book of Hebrews, constantly refer to Christ as the Son of God (1 John 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:10, 5:12-13, 5:20, Hebrews 4:14, 6:6, 7:3, 10:29). That Christ is the Son of God was also the testimony of John the Baptist (John 1:3233). It is not surprising therefore that we find Jesus praying to His Father saying “… Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:1-3
This is exactly the opposite of what most trinitarians are claiming. As a trinitarian you say “Jesus Christ is the TRUE GOD, the Almighty God! not just the Father alone”. “They both [the Father and Jesus] are the True God…” Regardless of what these say , Jesus made it very clear that His Father is the “only [Gr. monos] true God”. This is why these two divine persons are not to be confused with each other. In personality, Christ is not the one true God although He is, because He is begotten of the Father, the personification (the express image) of the one true God. He is the personality of the Father revealed (Hebrews 1:3, John 1:1-3, 14-18, Colossians 1:15). He is the divine Son of the infinite God. it is just as though He is God’s second self.
I would conclude, although there is much much more which can be said, that a denial of the trinity does not necessitate a denial of the divinity of Christ. Nor does the acceptance of the divinity of Christ mean one must accept the trinity also.
<<<You just think you can have it both ways, which shows just how twisted you are. >>>
Just shows what words can come from a person, even those who preach what to them is God’s words. The following scriptures comes to kind, Jesus speaking:
Matthew 12:34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Matthew 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
<<<So what is it you believe Tong, do you believe the Word is God,>>>
You still asking what I believe? Then it means you haven’t really understood what I said? Let me tell you again then by answering your questions and hope that you will finally understand.
Yes, I believe that the Word was God, as scriptures says so.
<<<, and it was God who beame flesh(human), >>>
Yes, as scriptures says so.
<<< or, do you believe the Word is, the Only Begotten Son of God and it was the Only Begotten Son of God who became flesh(human).>>>
Yes, as scriptures says so.
<<<You're saying and that it's was both God and the Only Begotten Son of God that the Word is both God and the Only Begotten Son of God who became flesh(human)>>>
No. Perhaps, any natural man will have that kind of reasoning and thinking regarding what I said scriptures say about Jesus Christ.
The scriptures is not speaking of God and the Son of God and the Word spoken by apostle John as two beings. For God, while one being, is spoken in scriptures as the person of the Father who is heaven, and as the person of the Word or the Son who have come into the world and became flesh, and as the person of the Holy Spirit who descended upon the man Jesus and who now dwells in every child of God. The scriptures also speaks of the name (not names) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
I wonder if you have considered what scriptures says for example, about God that He is the King of Israel and is the first and the last, and what scriptures said and testified of the person of Jesus, that He is the King of Israel, and is the first and the last.
Apparently, not all men come to see that even while they could clearly read those in scriptures. Why is that, I asked. Scriptures gives the answer through apostle Paul, saying that such as are the things of the Spirit of God are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned
Tong
R2433
<<< In personality, Christ is not the one true God although He is, >>>
This is confusing to me. Not if you take Christ as not the only true God, but is another God. So please clarify that statement of yours.
You’ve said much truth about Jesus Christ, testified by the scriptures you cited. But I would like you to consider the scriptures that testifies that Jesus is the King of Israel and is the first and the last. Do you believe that?
Tong
R2434
Amazed@grace
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Personality is the same as saying personal identity. Jesus, His personal
identity, is a separate distinct being from the Father. Trinitarianism denies this. Trinitarianism teaches that the Son and the Father are inseparable. In the words of an orthodox priest, the Trinity is...
"We maintain rather the invariability of the Godhead (its simplicity and unity) in the sense that no action can lead to ontological change; namely in this case that the Word, one ousia [substance] with the Father and the Spirit, never leaves the Father's side even when He joins with our human nature in the Incarnation.”
This is basic trinitarianism. It applies to all versions of the trinity doctrine – else it would not be a trinity doctrine. It is that all three persons of the Godhead are of one substance and constitute the ‘one God’. This means - because this ‘one (trinity) God’ is immortal – this can never change. In other words, the way God exists is static.
As Father Hallam explained above, the consequence of this belief (if it were true) is that the Son of God never leaves the Fathers side – not even in the incarnation. In other words, in trinitarianism, the Son of God never actually (literally) vacates heaven or separates Himself from the Father but always exists safely with the Father in the one substance of God. In fact in trinitarianism, the Son of God is not literally a separate person from the Father, at least not as far as having a form of His own is concerned. This is because in trinitarianism, neither the Father, nor the Son, have forms of their own. Needless to say, it seriously affects all aspects of the incarnation. In a hymn written by an 8th century monk named St Germanus, this trinity reasoning is reflected. The hymn is called “A great and mighty wonder”, the second verse of which says (note the first line)
“The Word becomes incarnate and yet remains on high, And cherubim sing anthems to shepherds from the sky. Repeat the hymn again: “To God on high be glory And peace on earth to men!”” (St. Germanus, ‘A Great and Mighty Wonder’)
This is the basic concept of trinitarianism. It is that the Father and the Son, in the one substance of God, are never separated from each other – not even in the incarnation.
The Bible however teaches different. Jesus taught different. Jesus was a separate distinct personality and had His own distinct identity apart from His Father. This is true Sonship. The Sonship of Christ is actually denied by the trinity doctrine, regardless of what trinitarians maintain.
<<<Jesus, His personal identity, is a separate distinct being from the Father.>>>
This is yet another statement that is confusing.
“Son” necessarily denotes personality, as “Father” is. They are distinct persons or personalities, but does not necessarily speak of two separate distinct “being”s.
Tong
R2435
Cooper
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From the time of Adam and Eve, people have always had free will whether they have heard the gospel or not.
Freewill is about obedience. Does the child do as its mother tells it, or does it exercise free will and do what it wants?
The gospel is slightly different in as much as we are given the opportunity to follow Jesus if we want.
Salvation requires that we choose Christ. If a Calvinist, or anyone, has not made a conscious decision for Christ, there can be no forgiveness of sins, and they are lost. For that reason, Calvinism that lulls people into a false sense of security, by telling them they have been elected, can be said to be the religion of the devil.
Since the time of Jesus, Paul evangelised the known world, and everyone knows about Christmas, so there is no excuse.
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Cooper
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It is my understanding that Father is God in heaven without flesh, and the Son is the omnipresent Father on earth clothed in flesh. One God.
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
If they are not distinct beings, then how can one be a Father and the other His Son?
Why? Is truth in scriptures true because it satisfies and conforms with man’s reasoning and thinking? Or is truth in scriptures true because God says so? My position is that truth in scriptures is true because God says so.
Tong
R2439
Yes One God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Son now is no longer on earth and had ascended back to heaven where He with the Father, and sent the Holy Spirit to the world, who make His dwelling among the children of God.It is my understanding that Father is God in heaven without flesh, and Son is the omnipresent Father on earth clothed in flesh. One God.
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Tong
R2440
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