For free will believers out there

[Truther]

Are you really trying to convince me that you are that benighted? You are convincing me!

But we are talking about teh church age where Jesus commanded the gospel to go out in order for men to be saved.

But you know what I am talking about and are just being intentionally murky to cloud the issue.

The way to be saved per the Church age is to obey Acts 2:38 as our proof of our faith.

 

[amigo de christo]

We must always correct error and erronous doctrine . We do so for the sake of the others .
Paul even told titus to rebuke them sharply that they be sound in the faith .
He told timothy rebuke them before all that others might fear .
We do as we do for the sake of the brethren . For the SPIRIT works amongst the members for the edification of the body .
We must always be quick to correct and look out for one another .
IN all that we do let us honor the Glorious Lord who has saved us and let us HEED HE who is able to keep us from falling .
Now raise those hands up and let the glorious Lord and savoir be praised and thanked .

 

[Grailhunter]

Stomping out evil is not what we are called to do.

I am thinking people have different callings.
Then again I might be deaf.

 

[Wrangler]

I am thinking people have different callings.
Then again I might be deaf.

Our calling is the Great Commission. How each of us specifically go about spreading the Good News is a different calling.

Jesus command to NOT resist evil is universal. We are in no way called to seek out and destroy evil. In fact, we are prohibited from doing that. See Romans 12:9-21

 

[liafailrock]

There has been what once was a very intense, lively and even heated debate on "Calvinism vs. Armeniaism" It has devolved into name calling which is sad and people outright telling untruths.

But a side point for which I am starting this thread for is this;

For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not, I ask you this.

What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once? The bible celarly teaches that aprt from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin, one is lost, what about all those who unever even had a chance to "exercise" this supposed free will?

They never had a chance to accept or reject christ even once! Before you spout how they could be saved by their conscience, let me remind you that in the same book (Romans) it say s no one is righteous and no one seeks after God!

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

All have sinned and without trusting in the payment for ones sin they are lost. Unless you are promoting two gospels. The o gospel of Jesus for those who have had a chance to hear the gospel and another gospel of salvation for those who never hear.

And if that were true, like A B Simpson from the CMA wrote in the 1800's in the book "Missionary Messages"- that if the unsaved can be saved by some way apart form the hearing and believing in the gospel as it says in Romans 10, the church is a fool for sending missionaries all over the world, for once they have heard the gospel, they are now responsible to the gospel.

If those who have no tyet heard the gospel can be saved apart from the gospel- then the church would do better taking those billions it spends yearly on missions and use them for another reason. But no ! That is not the case. These are people who for generations have never hasd the witness of the gospel in their lands and have died without once getting a chance to exercise that "free will". does that make God the monster you think I make him to be or what?

Serious respondents only.

What if we were to say according to the bible that no man can come save the Father draws him? And what if we were to say at some point God would draw all men to him because he is not willing any should perish? So what does that say? It's not a question of free choice vs God's calling. Rather, God calls when it's your turn and your choice is to accept or reject him. Oh I know, what about those who never heard the gospel or lived prior to CHrist's coming? Let me illuminate that situation. Ezekiel 37 has many dry bones. If that is a resurrection, then when does that come? And when does God put His Spirit into those Israelites? So the same with those who lived beforehand and never heard the gospel. I'll let you figure out the rest as the implications make me sound like a heretic, but it's all in your bible. I think that answers it well. everyone will be given a chance at the time of their calling. Their's is to accept or reject the offer at that time. God may give more chances but is not obligated to (as today is a day of salvation. So that is how there can be "predestination" and "free choice". The church is not all that's ultimately saved, in other words. The church are the firstfruits called now to rule and reign and teach the rest unto salvation, and while many would think I'm saying in this age,it's the next age as well. We are too myopic and do it all "here and now" as if death is the border where things are settled. My death has nothing to do with the final judgment. It has to do with me.

 

[Enoch111]

What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once?

Prior to the resurrection of Christ, those who believed on the one true God forsook their idolatry and worshipped Him alone. No doubt they knew about the sacrifices which God required to show that they anticipated the final sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. And they offered those sacrifices.

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. (Gen 5:26)

The Bible says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Which also implies that all men may call upon the name of the Lord. Which means that freewill is a fact of life, and those who refuse to accept that are wilfully blind.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's not clouding the issue. It's explaining that being saved BY Jesus doesn't always mean knowing about everything Jesus did.

Well being saved for 46+ years now, I think I know what is needed to know about Jesus for one to be saved.

One has to trust in His death and Resurrections for their sin. that is all!

But what about the billions who have never heard the gospel once? Does your theology have another way they get saved?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What if we were to say according to the bible that no man can come save the Father draws him?

Well that is the bible so we better say!

And what if we were to say at some point God would draw all men to him because he is not willing any should perish?

Are you implying universal salvation then?

Ezekiel 37 has many dry bones. If that is a resurrection, then when does that come? And when does God put His Spirit into those Israelites?

this is not soteriological

I think that answers it well. everyone will be given a chance at the time of their calling. Their's is to accept or reject the offer at that time.

So you believe that after death people who never heard get ashot at hearing and accepting? Despite the Bible declaring that after we die comes teh execution of our sentience (guilt or innocence)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Prior to the resurrection of Christ, those who believed on the one true God forsook their idolatry and worshipped Him alone. No doubt they knew about the sacrifices which God required to show that they anticipated the final sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. And they offered those sacrifices.

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD. (Gen 5:26)

The Bible says that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Which also implies that all men may call upon the name of the Lord. Which means that freewill is a fact of life, and those who refuse to accept that are wilfully blind.

You go from implies to then it being a fact! That is a jump even Evel Kneviel would not attempt!

Paul said the Gentiles were without hope and without god in the world.

Genesis 5 is a different dispensation with a different object of faith to be saved. In order to be saved in Noahs day- one had to get on the boat!

And what name did they call? Jesus? NO, Yahweh? No that was not revealed until Moses!

Salvation has always been by faith through grace, and not of ourselves, but is a gift of God, not of works lest we should boast.

But you conveniently ignore all the verses I have posted on the other thread we both were on , that show the natural man will not choose the things of God.

Nor do you address the billions who never hear the gospel so have no choice? Do you have a second gospel? So that people who do not hear the name Jesus can be saved dep[ite the bible saying there is no other name given to men by which they must be saved?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You do not know this to be the case.

And even if this is so, the Lord can preach the gospel to them that died never hearing of the gospel in their lifetime on earth:

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[ I’m not interested in the free will vs no free will debate; both sides have scriptures to support their case; but I prefer to exercise moderation instead of the extremism that tends to cause division in these matters]

So you think that Jesus is going to leave heaven, go down to the place of torments and preach the gospel to people who died lost? Remember Romans 10: 9 clearly shows tht one has to believe inorder to be saved.

So you do not believe this passage of Scripture then:
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think you underestimate God's love for humanity. Many have come and gone in the cultures around the world since Jesus walked our dusty streets that have never heard of the salvation God has provided....the which we are privileged to understand. God has not abandoned them as might be supposed. His kindness extends to all of Adams progeny. I am persuaded that God woos all peoples irrespective of when they lived or their reality.....what the mechanics of that is I do not know.

Those who respond will learn things which will utterly amaze them.....as we all will be.

Some will ask Jesus 'what are those wounds in your hands and he will reply, they are those where I was wounded in the house of my friends' Zechariah 13:6

So how do they get saved?

Teh bible is clear that unless you confess and believe you cannot be saved! I think you underestimate teh Holiness and Righteousness of God and make Him to be a sentimental guy.

The Bible says that the Gentiles as Gentiles we without hope and without God in the world.

Teh Bible says none seek after God!

What evidence do you offer to support your persuasion and if it contradicts the clear unambiguous teachings of the Inspired Word of God, why we should reject the Bible and accept your persuasion?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The primary problem with your point of view is the idea that one is saved by subscribing to a certain theology....ie, one must believe a certain thing cognitively for God's salvation to be effective.

It highlights a view of God that is tight opposed to generous....it highlights the self importance of the one thinking they can limit God's love for humanity to their particular view.......it gives reason to the world to reject the generosity and kindness of God......it highlights that human logic is relied on and superimposed onto God......it's focus is on the temporal evidenced by where the emphasis is and be assured, the reality is; many who are last will be first and those who are feel to be first will be last!

Well I won't apologize for what the bible says is required for mankind to be saved!

And no it rejects human logic which is what you are pushing and accepts what the Bible says.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Addressing the OP, haven't read all the replies, I'm sure someone have answered it.. for me one verse, Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."
this is why he went and preached to those (spirits) who was in prison. for God is not .... not anymore the God of the LIVING only, but of the dead also.. (this is WHY I know God as his own diversity/another tasted death for all men).. and knowing that, it answered you question, "For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not", one scripture, Joel 2:32 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

that one word, "whosoeve" shows us that it is not set, but it incompass every "whosoeve".

well what do you mean 101G? scripture, 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
and all men are the "whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered", or SAVED.. so God has set it for all to be saved, but it is "whosoever call upon his name, which means,
Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"
Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Now if you're dead.... Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living." and remember our Lord Jesus is a PREACHER, so DEAD or ALIVE, no man "WHOSOEVER" have any excuse.

101G, Ss

If you only learned a teeny weeny bit of sentence ocnstruction you would know the indefinte "whosoever" does not mean "free will" at all, but is simply a simply statement of fact. It means that whoever believes is saved! Instead of listing all (for the Lord knows all who are HIs) people who will call onHIs name, God simply used the fact that whoever does gets saved.

It doesn't show election, predestination, free will, the process God uses to call the elect to Himsefl, or anything else. It is simply a simply statment of fact that you are trying to read inot something that dsoesn't belong!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

So you think that Jesus is going to leave heaven, go down to the place of torments and preach the gospel to people who died lost? Remember Romans 10: 9 clearly shows tht one has to believe inorder to be saved.

So you do not believe this passage of Scripture then:
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Good point.

Jesus went and preached unto the dead before his resurrection. This was a one time happening.

However I do not worry about a hypothetical; I know that God is just and will save all who will be saved. No one will be lost who didn’t deserve to be lost.

No one is unreachable; nothing is too hard for the Lord.

I have faith in that.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Great question! And thanks for starting this thread. (I avoided the other one, mostly if not entirely)

IMO, the dilemma is rooted in why one should seek salvation. Although raised a Catholic, as a young man I turned my back on Christianity, in part due to this reason. My Catholic friends could not answer the END GAME. We accept Jesus, go to heaven and then what? What do we do with eternal life?

It is the same dilemma as infants who die, right? So, if your focus is on what about those <INSERTION EXCEPTION/EXEMPTION CLAUSE HERE>, then you are making yourself impotent in focusing on things above your pay grade AS IF our purpose, is the END GAME noted above. The mantra in my church is, God's job is results; our job is obedience.

This mantra reveals a different focus. The focus is serving the will of God. By spreading the Kingdom, as he commanded, the Spirit expands. The fruit of the Spirit expands so people benefit now. Now, benefitting now by receiving the Holy Spirit of God, to take the opportunity to be a foot soldier in doing his bidding, to have divinity within you as you live out your life NOW is an entirely different reason one should seek salvation.

Let me ask you this; what do you think and feel about those who have not heard of Jesus and cannot be saved through him now? To your way of thinking, you might say I promote 2 Gospels. However, I believe it rolls into one: saved by Jesus now or later (in the after-life). I advocate sooner for all concerned.

Well I loved all but your last paragraph.

there is nothing in Scripture to imply that people gert a second chance after death. Contrary wise, the bible does sayithis:

Hebrews 9:27
King James Version

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


also people who die stay in the underworld until this:

REv. 20:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

No my brother, let us not be mistaken. Every one has exactly one human lifetime to hear and recieve the gospel and be saved! Once death comes, the sentencing takes place!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There has been what once was a very intense, lively and even heated debate on "Calvinism vs. Armeniaism" It has devolved into name calling which is sad and people outright telling untruths.

But a side point for which I am starting this thread for is this;

For those who believe that unsaved man has free will to freely choose God or not, I ask you this.

What about the tens of billions who have lived and died and never once even had a chance to hear the name Jesus even once? The bible celarly teaches that aprt from faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus for ones sin, one is lost, what about all those who unever even had a chance to "exercise" this supposed free will?

They never had a chance to accept or reject christ even once! Before you spout how they could be saved by their conscience, let me remind you that in the same book (Romans) it say s no one is righteous and no one seeks after God!

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

All have sinned and without trusting in the payment for ones sin they are lost. Unless you are promoting two gospels. The o gospel of Jesus for those who have had a chance to hear the gospel and another gospel of salvation for those who never hear.

And if that were true, like A B Simpson from the CMA wrote in the 1800's in the book "Missionary Messages"- that if the unsaved can be saved by some way apart form the hearing and believing in the gospel as it says in Romans 10, the church is a fool for sending missionaries all over the world, for once they have heard the gospel, they are now responsible to the gospel.

If those who have no tyet heard the gospel can be saved apart from the gospel- then the church would do better taking those billions it spends yearly on missions and use them for another reason. But no ! That is not the case. These are people who for generations have never hasd the witness of the gospel in their lands and have died without once getting a chance to exercise that "free will". does that make God the monster you think I make him to be or what?

Serious respondents only.

I am neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian, but am one who thinks free will is not so free. We are either slaves to God or slaves to Satan. If we were free, we would not be accountable for our sin, nor would there any judgment. We could just float off into our own spiritual realm after death freely or just willfully construct our own.
Free to chose God means from a spiritually blind state, you can willfully do something to remove that blindness or at best jumpstart the process so God can cleanse you. NO, He must first draw us (and that is scriptural) and that means through an inward and outward calling. He enables us to hear and respond and we are drawn to His Word and you know the rest.
That aside, what of the billions who never heard of Christ? I heard a Pastor say that they would be judged by what they knew.
Now apart from hearing the gospel, (which would sort if be an excuse if we never did), Romans 1 says that we are still without excuse.
" because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." ROM. 1:19-23
So my question is _ for those billions who have never heard the gospel: Since scripture says they are without excuse because of what is known about God was manifest in them and His invisible attributes were clearly seen and understood by the things that are made, if they had glorified God, were thankful and lived by that faith manifest in them, could salvation through the blood of Christ be imputed to them? Always wondered about that.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You bring up a very good point, ...but, I'm not sure if I will address it from the free-will standpoint, for free-will does not pertain only to accepting the Gospel of Christ.
I believe that there were more than one dispensation in God's plan for salvation, at a particular time. I cannot imagine that any of the OT saints knew of Jesus Christ, knew of his pre-eminence as first-born of creation, nor of his passion or soteriological impact and mandate. But, again, as first-born of creation, as the Lord and Judge of all things, as the means by which all things were created (not the Creator), one cannot deny his fundamental and timeless significance (not eternal).
I believe therefore that faith in God is the catalyst behind all men's redemption, but this was meant to direct those under the final dispensation to come to a more complete faith - the Father's love for the son and Christ's consequent pre-ordained Lordship, which was justified by his love for the Father.

Thus, it is reprobate to think that Christ is not the Saviour of all men who lived after he rose from the dead. This is a comprehensively fundamental principle, that transcends any form of righteousness or justice - Christ will be Lord of Lords, and King of Kings, the Judge of all men, the one and only, who will hand all things back to Father at the appointed time. Thus, is there anyone else, or a greater principle that can supersede the aforementioned attributes of Christ?

I agree that god had different dispensations and that teh object of faith in those past dispensations was different than today! The name Jesus was not revealed until HIs birth!

But since the church age, there is only one means men must be saved- and that is to trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus for their sin. Without that- they caannot be saved. Romans 10 makes that clear as well.
I agree with all teh attributes you list- but totally disagree with universal salvation since the REsurrection. Jesus even said that is not true and that contradicts teh clear teaching of Scripture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Isn't it True that exercising faith in the Only True God because of the love you have for him is the basis of who God considers his friends, his faithful servants and therefore who he considers righteous, deserving of life?
Doesn't Hebrews chapter eleven teach us about this faith. Doesn't it talk about so many who exercised faith in the Times before Jesus paid the ransom price that God considered righteous but tells us that these faithful servants wouldn't be complete without Jesus and his Apostles, meaning in the resurrection all these who exercised faith will hear the gospel after they are resurrected.

NO!

God gives us faith and we learn to love HIm. People do not come to christ filled with th eownder of His love=- that comes after!

No there is no preaching of the gospel after people are resurrected. Either the first resurrection of the faithful or the second resurrection of the lost!

 

[101G]

(for the Lord knows all who are HIs)

first thanks for the reply, second, but one would learn the word "IF", 2 Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

well who is these people? ............... that's right, God's people. so is all people God's People? yes, maybe not a son right now, but he made us all, the Good the bad, and the ugly, but do he not take care of us all?.

so if, if, and if is not set, that's why it's "if".

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The way to be saved per the Church age is to obey Acts 2:38 as our proof of our faith.

Actually it is per Romans 10:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Water Baptism comes after one is already saved.

Remember context. Peter is talking to jews who saw and heard of Jesus Acts is more a history book than a book where we can formulate church doctrine.