For those who don't believe in prophets today....explain this

[ScottA]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ written by John marked the end for seeking the gifts, according to Paul fro reasons already provided.

No...that was you mistaking the end of what has indeed come with that which has not yet come.

It is not your place to declare the end for those whom God has not even brought a beginning to. Nor was it Paul's place to do so, so he spoke of both...and you are mixing them up and not reconciling what would otherwise have Paul contradicting himself, which he did not do. But he did speak of mysteries...which now have eluded you.

Nonetheless, if you can receive it, it is as I have explained, just as he did: The end of prophecies and the beginning of the kingdom comes, "each in his own order." If you cannot receive it, then you do no service to by spreading confusion.

 

[Dave L]

No...that was you mistaking the end of what has come with that which has not come. It is not your place to declare the end for those whom God has not even brought a beginning to. Nor was it Paul's place to do so, so he spoke of both...and you are mixing them up and not reconciling what would otherwise have Paul contradicting himself, which he did not do. But he did speak of mysteries...which now have eluded you.

Nonetheless, if you can receive it, it is as I have explained, just as he did: The end of prophecies and the beginning of the kingdom comes, "each in his own order." If not, then you do no service to by spreading confusion.

Paul was not speaking about the end of the world. He said the Revelation would ALSO confirm them to the end (now being thousands of years later).

 

[amadeus]

My understanding of Oneness is that they do not deny the Trinity but emphasize the Oneness of God in order to promote a more accurate understanding of the Trinity.

I was in three different oneness groups over a period of 11 years, I never received the understanding that you have. In a nutshell what I received in single line of a song they sang was:

"Jesus is the name of the Father, Jesus is the name of the Son, Jesus is the name of the Holy Ghost and all these three are one".

God is only One. God is not three persons. God has many manifestations which may include those three... but may also include others. Of course, I left the last oneness group in 1987 so I don't recall all of those details. I am not with them any more but neither am I a Trinitarian, but I don't want to derail this thread about prophets so I'll say no more.

 

[ScottA]

Paul was not speaking about the end of the world. He said the Revelation would ALSO confirm them to the end (now being thousands of years later).

You are misreading the passage.

Paul first listed "the signs of the end" that had already occurred among the Corinthians, and then stated that it would also be confirmed.

They had not understood "the signs of the times", and now you have done the same. Jesus said the same to Israel. This is one of the greatest matters of confusion when it comes to God's people and understanding what He has said. But Paul did not speak plainly, that the days should be prolonged until the fullness of the gentiles has come. But I have spoken to you plainly.

 

[Dave L]

You are misreading the passage.

Paul first listed "the signs of the end" that had already occurred among the Corinthians, and then stated that it would also be confirmed.

They had not understood "the signs of the times", and now you have done the same. Jesus said the same to Israel. This is one of the greatest matters of confusion when it comes to God's people and understanding what He has said. But Paul did not speak plainly, that the days should be prolonged until the fullness of the gentiles has come. But I have spoken to you plainly.

You are switching passages and context. We are talking about coming behind in no gift waiting for the Revelation of Jesus Christ...written in the last part of the first century.

 

[CoreIssue]

My understanding of Oneness is that they do not deny the Trinity but emphasize the Oneness of God in order to promote a more accurate understanding of the Trinity.

They defined Trinity as one person as God operating in three modes.
Oneness Pentecostalism - NAMB

 

[justbyfaith]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ written by John marked the end for seeking the gifts,

So then, 1 Corinthians 14:1 is not for today...and therefore I can do with any scripture that I come across what you have done with this scripture...I can reject it and say it is not for today and therefore not for me. i.e. smorgasborg religion.

 

[Dave L]

So then, 1 Corinthians 14:1 is not for today...and therefore I can do with any scripture that I come across what you have done with this scripture...I can reject it and say it is not for today and therefore not for me. i.e. smorgasborg religion.

Notice Paul spoke to his audience in 2nd person plural. = them, not us, which would have been 3rd person plural.

 

[ScottA]

You are switching passages and context. We are talking about coming behind in no gift waiting for the Revelation of Jesus Christ...written in the last part of the first century.

No...that may be your perception of things...but that is not the reality of things. It wasn't then when Paul was eluding to it, which you have made a topic of the discussion, and it isn't now the reality of things either.

We are not waiting for the revelation of Jesus Christ in the way you mean, but as Paul eluded to "each in his own order." Which is indeed "the end of the world" as you thought it was not. But the biblical definition of the end of the world, is: the beginning of the kingdom of God for the person "entering in." Which occurs (as he also said) when the "old man" dies, whether it occurs in the midst of life in the world, or at the end of life in the world - which (as he said) happens "each in his own order."

So...some, yes, are waiting...but many are not waiting, but (as he said, beginning 2000 years ago) "are alive and remain" in the world and "to live is Christ." Thus, those in whom Christ now lives...are not waiting - for He is with them already. To these there is no more prophecy. But to those in whom Christ does not live, the spirit of God is still available according to His promise. It is not men "who speak, but the Holy Spirit who speaks." And you have no say in it.

 

[justbyfaith]

They defined Trinity as one person as God operating in three modes.
Oneness Pentecostalism - NAMB

I feel that they have misrepresented the Oneness position.

In Jesus all the fulness of the Godhead does indeed dwell bodily (Colossians 2:9). The name of "the son that was given" shall indeed be called "the everlasting Father" because of the zeal of the LORD of hosts (Isaiah 9:6-7).

What I see in the doctrine is that it is not that 1/3 of God descended to become a Man; but that God Himself became a Man; and that Jesus is the Son of God in the incarnation, not that He was eternally begotten. It does not say that "the Son of God would overshadow Mary's womb", but that the Holy Ghost would be the One to conceive of the Son of God in the womb of Mary through the uniting of the Holy Ghost with the egg in the womb of the virgin Mary.

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); and the Father is that Spirit (John 4:23-24). Jesus is in the Father and the the Father in Him (see John 14:7-11); which indicates that the Spirit of Jesus is the Father. When Jesus died on the Cross, He cried out, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit;" and gave up the ghost (Luke 23:46). God could not vacate eternity when He became a Man.

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and the Father is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). Nevertheless no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3). And also, the Lord is that Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17).

The Holy Ghost is that Spirit (John 7:37-39).

This is all speaking of the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

I do not have three Spirits dwelling in me as a believer. Yet the Father dwells in me (Ephesians 4:6); the Son dwells in me (Colossians 1:27) and the Holy Ghost dwells in me (2 Timothy 1:14). Yet there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

When the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14) it should be clear that it was the Holy Ghost who overshadowed Mary's womb (Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18, Matthew 1:20).

John 1:1 is also interpreted by the understanding that God is outside of time; and that He descended and then ascended once again (Ephesians 4:10) to be outside of time. Thus the same God can exist beside Himself in eternity, i.e. "the Word was with God, and the Word was God;" being the same Person and yet each distinct from the other.

 

[justbyfaith]

Notice Paul spoke to his audience in 2nd person plural. = them, not us, which would have been 3rd person plural.

I am going to have to cease to argue with you on this issue; and we will agree to disagree.

 

[CoreIssue]

I feel that they have misrepresented the Oneness position.

In Jesus all the fulness of the Godhead does indeed dwell bodily (Colossians 2:9). The name of "the son that was given" shall indeed be called "the everlasting Father" because of the zeal of the LORD of hosts (Isaiah 9:6-7).

What I see in the doctrine is that it is not that 1/3 of God descended to become a Man; but that God Himself became a Man; and that Jesus is the Son of God in the incarnation, not that He was eternally begotten. It does not say that "the Son of God would overshadow Mary's womb", but that the Holy Ghost would be the One to conceive of the Son of God in the womb of Mary through the uniting of the Holy Ghost with the egg in the womb of the virgin Mary.

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); and the Father is that Spirit (John 4:23-24). Jesus is in the Father and the the Father in Him (see John 14:7-11); which indicates that the Spirit of Jesus is the Father. When Jesus died on the Cross, He cried out, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit;" and gave up the ghost (Luke 23:46). God could not vacate eternity when He became a Man.

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and the Father is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). Nevertheless no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3). And also, the Lord is that Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17).

The Holy Ghost is that Spirit (John 7:37-39).

This is all speaking of the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

I do not have three Spirits dwelling in me as a believer. Yet the Father dwells in me (Ephesians 4:6); the Son dwells in me (Colossians 1:27) and the Holy Ghost dwells in me (2 Timothy 1:14). Yet there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

When the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14) it should be clear that it was the Holy Ghost who overshadowed Mary's womb (Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18, Matthew 1:20).

John 1:1 is also interpreted by the understanding that God is outside of time; and that He descended and then ascended once again (Ephesians 4:10) to be outside of time. Thus the same God can exist beside Himself in eternity, i.e. "the Word was with God, and the Word was God;" being the same Person and yet each distinct from the other.

The only misrepresentation here is what you're doing.

I even listened to a debate between a oneness preacher and and biblical theologian.

This is exactly what they believe.

Here are more sources and they all say the same thing.

oneness pentecostal beliefs at DuckDuckGo

Notice the UPI site has no statement of faith and no discussion on the subject?

 

[justbyfaith]

The only misrepresentation here is what you're doing.

I even listened to a debate between a oneness preacher and and biblical theologian.

This is exactly what they believe.

Here are more sources and they all say the same thing.

oneness pentecostal beliefs at DuckDuckGo

Notice the UPI site has no statement of faith and no discussion on the subject?

I believe that their take on things is that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of the Lord (1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (kjv)) and therefore the method of evangelism is not to convince people of doctrine that they can't ever receive apart from receiving the Holy Ghost. Therefore they focus on getting people baptized in Jesus' name rather than convincing them of the truth of sound doctrine.

I have not misrepresented the biblical, Oneness position.

 

[CoreIssue]

I believe that their take on things is that the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of the Lord (1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (kjv)) and therefore the method of evangelism is not to convince people of doctrine that they can't ever receive apart from receiving the Holy Ghost. Therefore they focus on getting people baptized in Jesus' name rather than convincing them of the truth of sound doctrine.

I have not misrepresented the biblical, Oneness position.

Say all you want but it does not change the fact they reject the fact that the father son and Holy Spirit are three distinctly separate individual persons, not roles played by one individual.

If you cannot understand that completely redefines the nature of God that is on you. But it remains indefensible.

 

[justbyfaith]

Even the Trinitarian Creeds specifically state that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct; not separate.

If anyone wants to contend that the individuals within the Trinity are separate, I would contend that their doctrine is Tritheism and not the true Trinity.

PS you should capitalize Father and Son; that is disrespectful even if you didn't do it on purpose!

 

[justbyfaith]

But it remains indefensible.

The doctrine I have set forth on the true nature of the Trinity (For those who don't believe in prophets today....explain this) is highly defensible. Did you look up the references that I gave for each statement within the whole of my statement on the doctrine?

 

[CoreIssue]

Even the Trinitarian Creeds specifically state that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are distinct; not separate.

If anyone wants to contend that the individuals within the Trinity are separate, I would contend that their doctrine is Tritheism and not the true Trinity.

PS you should capitalize Father and Son; that is disrespectful even if you didn't do it on purpose!

I don't study creeds But the study the Bible. It most assuredly says three distinct individuals.

God appeared to Abraham as three men.

Baptized in the name of the father the son and the Holy Ghost. In the Greek Kai(the) means what follows is individual and distinct.

God said let us create, not me.

Christ specifically said the father was in heaven. If he was God solely and on the earth that would be a lie.

Christ joined the father on the throne when he ascended, not merged into him.

And on and on. What you're saying is pure occult mysticism.

 

[justbyfaith]

God appeared to Abraham as three men.

One of those men was Jesus, and the other two were angels, if you study that story more carefully.

It most assuredly says three distinct individuals.

That is my belief. They are three distinct individuals, yet one Person/God. He says "I AM" not "We are."

 

[justbyfaith]

In the Greek Kai(the) means what follows is individual and distinct.

Actually, kai can be translated as "even".

And on and on. What you're saying is pure occult mysticism.

You are coming across as a narrow-eyed crotch inspector.

 

[CoreIssue]

One of those men was Jesus, and the other two were angels, if you study that story more carefully.

It does not say that. The name Jesus never appears anywhere in the OT.

Abraham called all of them together God. All three of them answered him as God.

None of them are called Angels, only God.

That is my belief. They are three distinct individuals, yet one Person/God. He says "I AM" not "We are."

Oneness does not believe they are three distinct individuals. But they are only one person.