For those who think Christ is not God.

[Johann]

Well imo Johann used a blunt nail and the top is already coming off. So you have no direct input into it then...ok

There's a Japanese saying.." The nail that's stands out gets hammered down"
I haven't even started yet.
J.

 

[BarneyFife]

More like twisting and perverting plain, simple scriptures, I have seen too many debates in my lifetime and we have wolves here in sheep's clothing.
J.

Many of them know not what they do.
Just remember Jesus died for wolves, too.
It'll be fine.
Soon the Church Militant will be the Church Triumphant!
Speaking of church, I'm going to lift up all my friends and 'enemies' from here tomorrow in Prayer Before The Throne.
I must admit--I have my favorites--even among 'enemies.'
I generally make friends of enemies eventually.
That's one thing I really love about this place.
I've got a little feud going on over in a "gun laws" thread.
You'll pray for me that I might win him over, won't you?
The easiest way in the world to make friends is to wrestle with them;
then apologize for being contentious.
Works nearly every time. lol

 

[Brakelite]

Hmmm... All Trinitarians? Just asking. Silly, I guess. ¿

(Wow, there's just no way to get into this without getting messy, is there?¿)

No, not all trinitarians. I think there are likely more versions of the trinity than they're are versions of "I did it my way".

 

[face2face]

The questions I'm asking J are really rhetorical. I'm hoping f2f and company will actually look at the issues and questions with some biblical literacy. I mean, I asked f2f who is the individual referenced in Genesis 18:1, the scripture names the individual, the LORD, and f2f says angel??!?!! Unless @face2face has some very good reasoning to explain that, I would say it's cognitive dissonance. And he accuses you (not me because I'm not your ordinary garden type trinitarian) of looking at scripture with preconceived bias?

I am waiting for a NT example of Jesus representing himself as an angel. If you all are so convinced Jesus is the Archangel in Genesis show us the NT understanding. Boy something as amazing as Jesus visiting Abraham would be common knowledge among the Apostles lol.

 

[face2face]

Of course.

Let me ask you this...The Masters reference to Abraham, is this Jesus speaking of his pre-eminence or pre-existence? I get it's clear due to your trinitarian beliefs you have adopted the later, but what if you are misinterpreting Christ just as the Jews did, as they rarely (if ever) perceived the Spirit correctly. As I proved with Johann who interpreted one verse as being literal, only to become offended at the thought of drinking Jesus' blood and believed it was clearly metaphoric with another verse. You see Pearl, the point here is whether you are able to open your mind wide enough to consider the possibility.

If you think John 8:58 is Jesus telling his listeners that he is older than Abraham - you miss the point of John 8:56
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." Of course if you are literal with verse 58 then you must also be with verse 56 - do you believe Abraham was alive when Jesus walk the earth?

The context is pre-eminence not pre-existence! (Galatians 3:8) Jesus is trying to get his Jewish listeners to use the same eye of faith as Abraham did i.e "saw" the day of Christ coming by faith.

1 Peter 1:20 applies - foreordained... but not given life until his birth. The pre-eminence is the same as Revelation 13:8 and you know when he was crucified.

There is a lot more to consider here but the above is sufficient for now.

 

[face2face]

My difficulty lies with your claim that Christ's "non-pre-existence" should be considered a foregone conclusion by anyone within earshot of you. Seems a bit presumptuous..

Read correctly.

The context of John 17:5 is a far cry from Christ being very God (Trinitarian formula not in view), but as you said, you're not out to prove that (yet)! You will note the context shows Jesus' power is derived by God, not innate, as per John 17:2.

Out of interest, would you also say the same of Jeremiah? Jeremiah 1:5 I mean what you are saying of John 17:5 is actually what God is saying of Jeremiah?

“Before I formed you in your mother’s womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations.”

Out of interest, do you believe Jeremiah pre-existed? If not, why would you not read John 17:5 in the same way you interpret Jeremiah 1:5?

Maybe Romans 4:17 is the true application to these verses?

Maybe Jesus understood his life was 1 Peter 1:11 cmp John 12:41; have you considered how the Christ would speak to his listeners knowing his life held prophetic significance? Also the glory the elect shall enjoy is also prophetic Romans 9:23 cmp 2 Timothy 1:9 but in no way could you or I say we have pre-existed.

Romans 14:5

 

[Brakelite]

I am waiting for a NT example of Jesus representing himself as an angel.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[BarneyFife]

Read correctly.

The context of John 17:5 is a far cry from Christ being very God (Trinitarian formula not in view), but as you said, you're not out to prove that (yet)! You will note the context shows Jesus' power is derived by God, not innate, as per John 17:2.

Out of interest, would you also say the same of Jeremiah? Jeremiah 1:5 I mean what you are saying of John 17:5 is actually what God is saying of Jeremiah?

“Before I formed you in your mother’s womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart. I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations.”

Out of interest, do you believe Jeremiah pre-existed? If not, why would you not read John 17:5 in the same way you interpret Jeremiah 1:5?

Maybe Romans 4:17 is the true application to these verses?

Maybe Jesus understood his life was 1 Peter 1:11 cmp John 12:41; have you considered how the Christ would speak to his listeners knowing his life held prophetic significance? Also the glory the elect shall enjoy is also prophetic Romans 9:23 cmp 2 Timothy 1:9 but in no way could you or I say we have pre-existed.

Romans 14:5

Take a good hard look at my entire post and tell me that you replied with true intellectual integrity.

Spoiler

Not one single bit.

 

[face2face]

Take a good hard look at my entire post and tell me that you replied with true intellectual integrity.

Spoiler

Not one single bit.

You comprehended my first post correctly...hence why I wrote "read correctly". You have difficulties understanding that Jesus did not pre-exist , which is why I replied with a few points to show a correct understanding , one within the context of the passage in mention.

Spoiler

cute, you like to play games!

 

[face2face]

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Right...to mean?

 

[Brakelite]

Right...to mean?

Not exactly representing Himself as an angel per se, but then He never did in the OT either did He. He was and is always the Son of God, Michael if you wish, the Lord of hosts, the Archangel. Not a created angel as the JWs persist with, nor beginning His existence at the incarnation as most in this thread seem to persist with. But, you asked for a NT reference to Jesus representing Himself as an angel, so I got one as close as possible. Archangel.

 

[MrBebe]

Good day to everyone,

Joh 17:4-5 KJV I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

Does the verse above tells of the existence of the Lord Yehua before his physical birth?

Look at KJV translation of Hosea 2:16:

(Hos 2:16 KJV) And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.​

Which was translated by ISV as:

(Hos 2:16 ISV) "It will come about at that time," declares the LORD, "that you will address me as 'My husband,' and you will no longer call me 'My master'.​

The word 'Ishi' (KJV), translated as 'My husband' by ISV is defined by the passage below which is just two verses away from v16:

Hos 2:19-20 KJV And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. (20) I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.​

Who is speaking in Hosea 2:16-20?
Let's include these passages in our study.

 

[Johann]

Many of them know not what they do.
Just remember Jesus died for wolves, too.
It'll be fine.
Soon the Church Militant will be the Church Triumphant!
Speaking of church, I'm going to lift up all my friends and 'enemies' from here tomorrow in Prayer Before The Throne.
I must admit--I have my favorites--even among 'enemies.'
I generally make friends of enemies eventually.
That's one thing I really love about this place.
I've got a little feud going on over in a "gun laws" thread.
You'll pray for me that I might win him over, won't you?
The easiest way in the world to make friends is to wrestle with them;
then apologize for being contentious.
Works nearly every time. lol

Amen, the wrestling process.
J.

 

[face2face]

Good day to everyone,

Joh 17:4-5 KJV I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (5) And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.​

Does the verse above tells of the existence of the Lord Yehua before his physical birth?

Look at KJV translation of Hosea 2:16:

(Hos 2:16 KJV) And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.​

Which was translated by ISV as:

(Hos 2:16 ISV) "It will come about at that time," declares the LORD, "that you will address me as 'My husband,' and you will no longer call me 'My master'.​

The word 'Ishi' (KJV), translated as 'My husband' by ISV is defined by the passage below which is just two verses away from v16:

Hos 2:19-20 KJV And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies. (20) I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.​

Who is speaking in Hosea 2:16-20?
Let's include these passages in our study.

Who do you think?

 

[face2face]

Not exactly representing Himself as an angel per se, but then He never did in the OT either did He.

Or the New by the looks of it.

He was and is always the Son of God, Michael if you wish, the Lord of hosts, the Archangel. Not a created angel as the JWs persist with, nor beginning His existence at the incarnation as most in this thread seem to persist with. But, you asked for a NT reference to Jesus representing Himself as an angel, so I got one as close as possible. Archangel.

You referenced a highly symbolic prophecy which has nothing to do with your Jesus in Genesis theory. Out of interest Brakelite, do you read Revelation 12 literally also? There is a lot of this going around these days as we have already well established in this thread.

 

[face2face]

What about John 14:9

“Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

This is another verse trinitarians love and use to support the concept of Jesus being God Almighty incarnate. Not only have we seen forum members read the text literally, they have forced non-biblical notions on it, which is likened to putting words in Jesus' mouth.

Take John 5:37 cmp John 14:9

And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form

How can this be true, if Jesus himself is the Father?

In reality, your method of exegesis isn't working for you and that's what this very long thread is proving. The problem is how you read the text and the notions you force upon it.

These verses can easily be reconciled, if you understand the mind of Christ and his teaching.

Finally, consider 1 Timothy 6:16; & 1 John 4:12 - for those literal readers... how can it be said they have seen the Father when He dwells in light approachable?

Even the literal reader must concede and say no one has "seen" God in the flesh and lived! 1 Corinthians 1:29-31

F2F

 

[Robert Gwin]

Robert, no need to teach me brother, and no need to proselyte me to embrace JW' teachings.
Shalom
J.

The Bible is the Bible, the truth is the truth, the Bible identifies the faith, as well as Christians sir. You choose the god you desire to serve. We simply bear testimony of our God Jehovah, some accept it, some don't. That is the beauty, at no time in history has Jehovah ever forced anyone to serve Him sir, but He does offer life to all who accept it.

 

[Brakelite]

Or the New by the looks of it.

Did anyone of us actually claim Jesus was an angel???? You telling me to validate something I never proposed.

Out of interest Brakelite, do you read Revelation 12 literally also?

What do you mean.... Also? I don't read anything symbolically unless the text demands it. If literal doesn't cut it, then symbolism is the go to. The woman for example is not Mary. She's the church, God's people. First Israel who longed for their Messiah, then the NT church which was forced into the wilderness through the 1260 years of papal persecutions.

.

 

[face2face]

Did anyone of us actually claim Jesus was an angel???? You telling me to validate something I never proposed.

Sorry I thought you suggested Jesus represented himself as an angel and that he pre-existed, if wrong on both counts we move right along!

What do you mean.... Also? I don't read anything symbolically unless the text demands it. If literal doesn't cut it, then symbolism is the go to. The woman for example is not Mary. She's the church, God's people. First Israel who longed for their Messiah, then the NT church which was forced into the wilderness through the 1260 years of papal persecutions.

All good, the way many read their Bibles here I was hoping you didn't believe in literal dragons.

 

[face2face]

Good morning all,

Lets consider a wonderful section which shows the Son could do nothing without the Father.

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed among you through him, just as you yourselves know— by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles having released him from the pains of death, because it was not possible for him to be held in its power.

God = Almighty God (Yahweh)
Jesus = man (Son)

God greater than His Son 1 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Corinthians 15:28; Mark 10:18; John 5:19; John 5:30
God approved of His Son and His obedience even unto death, therefore raising him and giving him name, throne, inheritance. Jesus himself only ever taught the Father is greater. John 14:28