For those who think Jesus is God - Why is that important?

[marks]

Wrong again.

The son of man means having the nature of a man, a human, a human nature. That is the definition in the OT from Ezekiel and Daniel.

The Son of God means having the nature of God, a Divine nature. That is the Definition in the N.T.

Its why He is called both man and God throughout Scripture because He has 2 natures.

hope this helps !!!

This is where it helps us to remember that "humanity" is not a collection of individuals, all "islands" as it were. All humanity was in Adam in his creation, and has "unfolded" in the millennia since. In Christ we are transfered from that Humanity to a new Humanity, the Last Adam, Christ.

Son of Man means, just as you say, human, and Son of God means Divine, and the Jews had no difficulty understanding that was what Jesus was saying to them. The Son of Man is a Man, and the Son of God is God. Jesus called Himself both.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

rofl God is not a "math" equation and is UNIQUE with NOTHING in creation to compare.

Including the first born of all Creation, right?

Your claim of Nature(s) not God is connected with math. For dualists like you 1 + 1 = 1.

 

[Behold]

typical of those who reject the truth of who the Scripture calls God on numerous occasions- the Son.

Jesus is the "Bread come down from Heaven". John 6:51

Jesus said to you Christophany, as you are playing the Pharisee/Devil's advocate role here......John 8:23. "" “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.""

So, Jesus was standing in front of them in a human body, telling them, telling YOU< that He is not of this world, and He is from Above".

So, how can that be True, if what you are teaching, is True.?
Do you say that Jesus was an Angel?
Jesus was a Saraphim ?

Jesus just told you that He is from ABOVE, "FROM ABOVE", so, get out your commentaries and try to undo that one, as im sure you'll try it.
Should be interesting for you to explain how "God manifested in the Flesh", 1 Timothy 3:16. Who said "if you've seen me you've seen the Father", and who told YOU< = "I AM from ABOVE"....and there is that "I AM" again, that God uses as His definition of Himself.... It should be interesting to see you try to dodge all that, or just ignore it, or just, pretend "its all symbolic"...

 

[ChristisGod]

Jesus is the "Bread come down from Heaven". John 6:51

Jesus said to you Christophany, as you are playing the Pharisee/Devil's advocate role here......John 8:23. "" “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.""

So, Jesus was standing in front of them in a human body, telling them, telling YOU< that He is not of this world, and He is from Above".

So, how can that be True, if what you are teaching, is True.?
Do you say that Jesus was an Angel?
Jesus was a Saraphim ?

Jesus just told you that He is from ABOVE, "FROM ABOVE", so, get out your commentaries and try to undo that one, as im sure you'll try it.
Should be interesting for you to explain how "God manifested in the Flesh", 1 Timothy 3:16. Who said "if you've seen me you've seen the Father", and who told YOU< = "I AM from ABOVE"....and there is that "I AM" again, that God uses as His definition of Himself.... It should be interesting to see you try to dodge all that, or just ignore it, or just, pretend "its all symbolic"...

No problem since God is One in nature, essence, Being and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the One God. We can therefore understand Jesus words why do you ask Me to show you the Father?

Since I Am God you are looking at Him. To see Me is to see God( the Father ). This was Jesus point. And all the Jews knew He claimed to be God. They tried to kill Him for "you being a mere man make yourself out to be God" . He is from heaven because that is where God dwells and where the Son came from.

In John 17:5 He said He shared the same Glory together with the Father before Creation. Here are some passages to back up what I'm saying.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.


John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.


John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.


John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.


John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.


Jhn 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Now we also know from Johns writings that those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are the spirit of antichrist. Those who deny God became flesh and dwelt among us are deceivers. The Incarnation was permanent as we read in 2 John 7- Jesus has come in the flesh. A past action with present results.

Colossians 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Hebrews 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,

Hebrews 5:7-8
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Divine Son who is the 2nd person of the Trinity.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jack]

Hi, Sir. Yes, the Deity of Christ is a wondrous, Biblical truth....

The only way Jesus is not God is if the antichrists rewrite our Bible.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Not a lot. As I analyze the Crucifixion, I ask whether it was necessary for forgiveness of our sins. If it wasn't, and was just God's chosen means from among other alternative ways to forgive our sins, why would He choose this one? And if it WAS the only available alternative, what does that say about Him and His power to forgive?

JESUS'.......DEATH,....NOT THE MANNER OF, was, had to be, could be nothing else.....but DEATH.
He had to be the perfect sacrificial lamb fully God made into a man, for those he wishes to save or pardon of sins.In this he could truly save to the upmost,having been as we are !

 

[stephen64]

Through out thebible forgiveness is linked conditionally to repentance.
The disciples as devout Jews would be used to the ritual of offering sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins. They knew unless the acted in repentance their sins could not be forgiven.

How else would you understand this verse?

I agree with you, without repentance there is no rogiving of sin

No problem since God is One in nature, essence, Being and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the One God. We can therefore understand Jesus words why do you ask Me to show you the Father?

Since I Am God you are looking at Him. To see Me is to see God( the Father ). This was Jesus point. And all the Jews knew He claimed to be God. They tried to kill Him for "you being a mere man make yourself out to be God" . He is from heaven because that is where God dwells and where the Son came from.

In John 17:5 He said He shared the same Glory together with the Father before Creation. Here are some passages to back up what I'm saying.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory

These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.


John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.


John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.

Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.


John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.


John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.

John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."

Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.


Jhn 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 17:1,5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into

John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.

Below we read it was the Son who already existed as the Son which the Father sent into the world.

John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.


Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

1 John 4:14
And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In 1 John 3:8 we see that the Son of Gods appearance or manifestation was for this very purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. The verb φανερόω means to make manifest, appeared, to make visible or to bring to light something that was previously hidden. This clearly means that Jesus had already existed as the Son of God and He was made manifest or visible to us.

Now we also know from Johns writings that those who deny Jesus came in the flesh are the spirit of antichrist. Those who deny God became flesh and dwelt among us are deceivers. The Incarnation was permanent as we read in 2 John 7- Jesus has come in the flesh. A past action with present results.

Colossians 1:13-18
For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Hebrews 1:2-3
in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever,

Hebrews 5:7-8
In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. 8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

The question is who or what was He before the days of His flesh? It is obvious that He pre existed before His birth(days of His flesh) as the Divine Son who is the 2nd person of the Trinity.

hope this helps !!!

why do you guys ever only quote Heb1:8? Put the next verse in as well
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.

 

[ChristisGod]

You can't write your own point of view. You can only re-post, "cut and paste", redundantly.
And you didnt actually respond to anything i wrote.
I didnt think you could.

You're just a Troll.
Maybe less.

Praise Jesus !

Matthew 5:10-12
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

1 Peter 4:14
If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you

 

[Jack]

Theologically, You can't write your own point of view. You can only re-post, "cut and paste", redundantly.
And you didnt actually respond to anything i wrote.
I didnt think you could.

You're just a Troll.
Maybe less.

I wasn't aware personal insults were allowed here.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Love was why God created the heavens and the earth, I think! That God created us for the purpose of receiving from Himself the greatest gift that can be, His Very Self.

Our sin prevented the receiving of that gift of His Love, but in Christ we are free to receive.

I find our thinking seems so much of the time wrapped up in guilt and fear, when God in Christ reconciled us to His so we can be free of those things, fully immersed into His love.

Much love!

How beautifully said !
Thank you and blessings.

 

[Wrangler]

No problem since God is One in nature, essence, Being and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the One God.

One is not 1 who died and another one who raised him back to life. Sad that all you can do to make up for quality of thought for copy and paste diversion, completely unable to answer the question.

The reason it is important to believe Jesus is God (and violate 1C, the Shema and giving all glory to God) is …

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Re: For those who think Jesus is God - Why is that important?

• Ps 110:4 . .The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind; "You are a
priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek."

High priests are taken from among men. (Heb 5:1) So then we can be
reasonably certain that Melchizedek was a man, i.e. a human being. But
from a certain point of view: Mel was also a self-existent eternal being
because the scripture contains no record of his father or of his mother; nor
is there a record of his birth or of his death.

As to Jesus (a.k.a. Y'shua) the Bible tells of his father and of his mother;
plus displays a record of his birth, and reports his death, viz: we can be
reasonably certain that Jesus was a man, i.e. a human being. So he satisfies
that particular requirement for Melchizedekian high priests.

However; Jesus also needs to be a self-existent eternal being in order to
fully qualify for the post of a Melchizedekian high priest.

As a reward his unprecedented service to both God and his fellow men; Isa
52:13 and Phil 2:6-11 say that God bestowed upon Jesus Christ the name
that is above every name that can be named either in Heaven, on earth, and
under the earth. That name is Jehovah, a.k.a. Yahweh. (Isa 42:8)

So; Jesus is now officially authorized to be respected, to be identified, to be
spoken of, to be spoken to, and to speak for himself, by the name of God,
i.e. the Almighty. (Ps 45:1-7, Rev 1:8)

Ergo: as far as the Bible is concerned, Jesus Christ is a self-existent eternal
being because his identity by the name of God affords him all the attributes
of God: the whole ball of wax, so to speak.

Bottom line: Messiah easily qualifies for the position of a Melchizedekian
high priest because as "God" he has neither father nor mother, nor is there
a record of his birth or of his death.

Messiah's path to divinity may seem a tad ridiculous-- maybe even
fraudulent --but it's the path God chose for him so we have to accept it.

* Primary Source: The New Testament's Letter To Hebrews
_

 

[Wrangler]

No one can enter into another person in this way. Jesus is God. He is a quickening Spirit.

What is difficult for us to comprehend is that He is also fully human.

There is a great mystery here in that it is easy to miss something in that duality.

Oy vey! There is no such thing as duality, which violates logic, the non-contradictory identification of truth and the law of identity. Jesus is not any kind of Spirit but a man who was resurrected bodily.

The idea of Christ entering us is figurative, not some kind of dualism of reality. This is how people use language, like the Spirit of '76 was not an actual being who entered the people of the era. Jesus said to follow him, an impossibility if he were in us. I suppose once one throws out the dictates of

definition
logic
language usage​

And embrace dualism, anything goes. In my devotional reading today, John 8:40-42 Jesus admits he heard from God, came from God and was sent by God. These are not the words of one who is God.

 

[Johann]

Psalm 45:7--Hebrews 1:3-4 shows Jesus is not God. Your translations are filled with contradictory errors to fit false council teachings.

The brightness of his glory (ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ)
Of God's glory. For brightness rend. effulgence. Ἀπαύγασμα, N.T.o. lxx, only Wisd. 7:26. oClass. It is an Alexandrian word, and occurs in Philo. Interpretation is divided between effulgence and reflection. Effulgence or outraying accords better with the thought of the passage; for the writer is treating of the preincarnate Son; and, as Alford justly remarks, “the Son of God is, in this his essential majesty, the expression and the sole expression of the divine light; not, as in his incarnation, its reflection.”

The consensus of the Greek fathers to this effect is of great weight. The meaning then is, that the Son is the outraying of the divine glory, exhibiting in himself the glory and majesty of the divine Being. “God lets his glory issue from himself, so that there arises thereby a light-being like himself” (Weiss).

Δόξα glory is the expression of the divine attributes collectively. It is the unfolded fullness of the divine perfections, differing from μορφὴ θεοῦ form of God (Php_2:6), in that μορφὴ is the immediate, proper, personal investiture of the divine essence. Δόξα is attached to deity. μορφὴ is identified with the inmost being of deity Δόξα is used of various visible displays of divine light and splendor, as Exo_24:17; Deu_5:24; Exo_40:34; Num_14:10; Num_16:19, Num_16:42; Eze_10:4; Eze_43:4, Eze_43:5; Eze_1:28, Eze_3:23; Lev_9:23, etc. We come nearer to the sense of the word in this passage in the story of Moses's vision of the divine glory, Exo_33:18-23; Exo_34:5, Exo_34:7.


The express image of his person (χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ)
Rend the very image (or impress) of his substance The primary sense of ὑπόστασις substance is something which stands underneath; foundation, ground of hope or confidence, and so assurance itself. In a philosophical sense, substantial nature; the real nature of anything which underlies and supports its outward form and properties. In N.T., 2Co_9:4; 2Co_11:17, Heb_3:14; Heb_11:1, signifying in every instance ground of confidence or confidence In lxx, it represents fifteen different words, and, in some cases, it is hard to understand its meaning notably 1Sa_13:21. In Rth_1:12, Psa_37:8, Eze_19:5, it means ground of hope: in Jdg_6:4, Wisd. 16:21, sustenance in Psa_38:5; Psa_136:15, the substance or material of the human frame: in 1Sa_13:23; Eze_26:11, an outpost or garrison:

in Deu_11:6; Job_22:20, possessions. The theological sense, person, is later than the apostolic age. Here, substantial nature, essence. Χαρακτὴρ from χαράσσειν to engrave or inscribe, originally a graving-tool; also the die on which a device is cut. It seems to have lost that meaning, and always signifies the impression made by the die or graver. Hence, mark, stamp, as the image on a coin (so often) which indicates its nature and value, or the device impressed by a signet. N.T.o. lxx, Lev_13:28; 2 Macc. 4:10; 4 Macc. 15:4. The kindred χάραγμα mark, Act_17:29; Rev_13:16, Rev_13:17. Here the essential being of God is conceived as setting its distinctive stamp upon Christ, coming into definite and characteristic expression in his person, so that the Son bears the exact impress of the divine nature and character.


Being (ōn). Absolute and timeless existence (present active participle of eimi) in contrast with genomenos in Heb_1:4 like ēn in Joh_1:1 (in contrast with egeneto in Joh_1:14) and like huparchōn and genomenos in Php_2:6.
The effulgence of his glory (apaugasma tēs doxēs). The word apaugasma, late substantive from apaugazō, to emit brightness (augē, augazō in 2Co_4:4), here only in the N.T., but in Wisdom 7:26 and in Philo. It can mean either reflected brightness, refulgence (Calvin, Thayer) or effulgence (ray from an original light body) as the Greek fathers hold.

Both senses are true of Christ in his relation to God as Jesus shows in plain language in Joh_12:45; Joh_14:9. “The writer is using metaphors which had already been applied to Wisdom and the Logos” (Moffatt). The meaning “effulgence” suits the context better, though it gives the idea of eternal generation of the Son (Joh_1:1), the term Father applied to God necessarily involving Son. See this same metaphor in 2Co_4:6.

The very image of his substance (charaktēr tēs hupostaseōs). Charaktēr is an old word from charassō, to cut, to scratch, to mark. It first was the agent (note ending = tēr) or tool that did the marking, then the mark or impress made, the exact reproduction, a meaning clearly expressed by charagma (Act_17:29; Rev_13:16.). Menander had already used (Moffatt) charaktēr in the sense of our “character.” The word occurs in the inscriptions for “person” as well as for “exact reproduction” of a person. The word hupostasis for the being or essence of God “is a philosophical rather than a religious term” (Moffatt). Etymologically it is the sediment or foundation under a building (for instance). In Heb_11:1 hypostasis is like the “title-deed” idea found in the papyri. Athanasius rightly used Heb_1:1-4 in his controversy with Arius. Paul in Php_2:5-11 pictures the real and eternal deity of Christ free from the philosophical language here employed. But even Paul’s simpler phrase morphē theou (the form of God) has difficulties of its own. The use of Logos in John 1:1-18 is parallel to Heb_1:1-4.

@Keiw THIS VERY VERSE PROVES THAT MESSIAH IS NONE OTHER THAN GOD, GOD WITH/PROS GOD, A SHAME, REALLY, THAT NO ONE ARE INTERESTED IN 'VISITING MANY GOOD BOOKS' AS SPURGEON QUOTES AND FEW, VERY FEW, WILL ACTUALLY READ WHAT IS POSTED.
j.

 

[Johann]

Why does shedding of blood equate to forgiveness. I know sacrifices was the custom and tradition, but I can't see how logically the act of killing something, an act of violence (or death if u don't see it as violent). What is the reasoning behind the act causing forgiveness.

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

j.

 

[Johann]

What I'm having a difficult time grasping is WHY God NEEDED to choose the Crucifixion of the Son as the method for His forgiveness of sin.

Several theories have been advanced to explain what happened on Calvary, all of them using the language of “payment” in describing the sacrifice. The “ransom” theory, see Matt. 28:20/Mark 10:45, suggests that by sinning mankind became Satan’s captives, and Christ gave himself as a ransom to redeem mankind from Satan’s dominion, resulting in what Rom. 6:16 characterizes as a change of masters. Origen, Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa all championed this theory.

In contrast, the “restitutional” or “penal substitution” theory, initially developed by Anselm and refined by Calvin, holds that Christ paid the penalty for mankind’s sin―a death penalty which had been imposed by God since the Fall of Adam and Eve (Gen. 2:17)―and thereby satisfied the legitimate demands of God’s justice.

In his Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians (Graebner trans., Zondervan 1949), Luther comments on Gal. 3:20: “We are the offending party; God is the party offended. The offense is of such a nature that God cannot pardon it.” Why not? No matter what the “offense” is (original sin inherited from Adam; our own personal actions contravening God’s law; fill in the blank yourself), what is it about the nature of the offense that renders it unforgivable without the sacrifice of Christ on the cross?

Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom_5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Pretty clear we all needed a Savior.
J.

 

[TLHKAJ]

The only way Jesus is not God is if the antichrists rewrite our Bible.

You have a point there, because scripture says this....

1 John 4:3
[3]And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[Johann]

You have a point there, because scripture says this....

1 John 4:3
[3]And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I noticed you are on fire for the Messiah, you keep going, in the strength and power of Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit...

1Pe_3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

J.

 

[Episkopos]

Oy vey! There is no such thing as duality, which violates logic, the non-contradictory identification of truth and the law of identity. Jesus is not any kind of Spirit but a man who was resurrected bodily.

The idea of Christ entering us is figurative, not some kind of dualism of reality. This is how people use language, like the Spirit of '76 was not an actual being who entered the people of the era. Jesus said to follow him, an impossibility if he were in us. I suppose once one throws out the dictates of

definition
logic
language usage​

And embrace dualism, anything goes. In my devotional reading today, John 8:40-42 Jesus admits he heard from God, came from God and was sent by God. These are not the words of one who is God.

You are missing the understanding of truth which requires dualities. There is no electricity of magnetism without poles that attract and yet can be made to repel. 2 polarities...one flow of power. A river flows from a high point to a lower point. We begin in the flesh and move into the spiritual. First the natural, then the spiritual.

Jesus enters into us AND we are to enter into Him. Jesus said...I am in My Father and MY Father is in Me. THAT is a duality. Like wise we are born again of the Spirit as a SAMPLE of God's goodness...and we are left with a template or mold inwardly that we are meant to be conformed into..."until Christ be formed in you."

You have obviously not experienced the eternal walk in the Spirit. Very few have. Had you done so you would understand how God can be within us. Many claim to have been born into eternal reality...but in truth, they have never left the temporal world. Many have taken on a religious bent that wants to agree with the biblical narrative...but without having experienced the power of the life to come.

Is it so hard to understand being of ONE Spirit?

There is a duality in the Godhead...Father and Son. We are invited into the Oneness they share by the One Holy Spirit. Without that holiness...none can experience God.

 

[stephen64]

You are missing the understanding of truth which requires dualities. There is no electricity of magnetism without poles that attract and yet can be made to repel. 2 polarities...one flow of power. A river flows from a high point to a lower point. We begin in the flesh and move into the spiritual. First the natural, then the spiritual.

Jesus enters into us AND we are to enter into Him. Jesus said...I am in My Father and MY Father is in Me. THAT is a duality. Like wise we are born again of the Spirit as a SAMPLE of God's goodness...and we are left with a template or mold inwardly that we are meant to be conformed into..."until Christ be formed in you."

You have obviously not experienced the eternal walk in the Spirit. Very few have. Had you done so you would understand how God can be within us. Many claim to have been born into eternal reality...but in truth, they have never left the temporal world. Many have taken on a religious bent that wants to agree with the biblical narrative...but without having experienced the power of the life to come.

Is it so hard to understand being of ONE Spirit?

There is a duality in the Godhead...Father and Son. We are invited into the Oneness they share by the One Holy Spirit. Without that holiness...none can experience God.

If you are saying Father and Son are in each other through the Holy Spirit and that is how believers are in Father and son, absolutely. And, just as Father and Son are one, believers can also be as one, only through the same Spirit