Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello Lizbeth,
The conversation here with Episkospos seemed to have devolved to a mormon conspiracy theory. Actually, this is the first time I have heard of such a thing concerning Zion . But with that said as a lurker here on this post, all I can say is my God is not a god of confusion I have no idea what is being bandied about between you all and Episkospos.

Alot of what Episkopos says is things we have never heard of before.

Behold is making a mormon connection I have also never seen before..

I am not sure that is where EPI got it or what.. what we have to look at is his words..

 

[CadyandZoe]

This video marks one year since we began this podcast. Please have a listen..and like, subscribe and comment on the channel. If this very simple principle could be understood we would see a rise in holiness in the church and a vast reduction in future judgment against those who are no longer able to hear sound doctrine.

I don't think your definition of "atonement" agrees with the NT definition. If I understand your video correctly, you equate "atonement" with "holiness" via the concept of "cleansing."

As I understand the term "atonement" it refers to the reconciliation of two parties at enmity with each other. When two reconcile with each other, they cease being enemies and they become friends. They are no longer at war, they are at peace.

Paul summarizes our condition in his epistle to the Romans.

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.​

justified by faith . . .
In Romans chapter 4, Paul argues that "justification" is a blessing of God, as described in a Psalm of David when he says, "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. Speaking of Abraham, Paul argues that God accounts them justified if they share the same faith as Abraham, being the father of our faith. (Romans 4:10-12)

we have peace with God . . .
Paul asserts that peace between God and his enemies came about by means of the cross of Christ. Paul often associates the cross of Christ with reconciliation (atonement.) "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Romans 5:10) Here Paul describes our change in status, having once been his enemies, through the death of his son, we became his friends. And what does God do for his friends? He saves them and grants them "aionic"* life.

we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Earlier, Paul asserted that our sin causes us to fall short of God's glory. What is God's glory if not his perfect moral goodness, righteousness, and love? Here Paul asserts that because God has accounted us "justified" and "at peace" with God we exult in hope of the glory of God. In other words, in Paul's view, walking without sin is a future hope. We don't see it now; since we don't see it now, it is a hope, "for who hopes in what he sees?"

______________________________
*"aionic" life = life as it will be in the final age.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are witnessing first hand what the truth does to the religious ego. The egos will try to shut down the message by personal attacks, false accusations and the like...since their own logic is shown for what it is...a carnal religious scheme that has no power over sin.

But I leave that up to you to see that...or not.

There are not many readers of the bible here..otherwise the word ZION would be very familiar. It is only mentioned about 153 times in the OT...not counting the NT.

But one would have to actually READ the bible to see that.

the zion you speak of is not the Zion of the word.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Behold, as you proclaim you are a teacher of God's word, why must you go outside of the Bible to prove Episkopos is wrong? Another member here posted scripture from Hebrews 12:22 which shows Zion is the heavenly kingdom:



Surely Behold, if you truly feel Episkopos is wrong with his teachings, can you yourself not find God's word in the Bible to prove him wrong?

Amen

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Thanks for your comments. Yes, forgiveness is based on righteousness. And atonement is based on holiness.

"GOD'S Forgiveness" is based on Christ's atonement for sins - His blood sacrifice. They go together. Righteousness and holiness are both attributes of God.
He draws us to Himself and lifts that spiritual veil of blindness, our sin is revealed to us and we become humble and sorry. He presents the gospel, we believe, ask for forgiveness and He forgives us and creates a new creature, free of the bondage of sin. He takes up residence in our new Temple and sanctifies us. In Christ, we are pure but then the process of transforming us into the likeness of His son which means that our mind and behavior gradually grows to produce fruit. His attributes are imputed to us. So that when we do something right, it the Holy Spirit who ordains that act, is behind it, influences it, empowers it.
Our forgiveness towards others depends on how spiritually mature we are. How loving a person are we? How selfish? Selfish people hold grudges - I know, I used to be one. Still am a little, but as they say, I am a work in progress. We become more loving, generous, giving, willing to forgive and less judgmental.
I struggled with the concept of forgiveness in the beginning of my walk. My attitude used to be, "Well God only forgives if we believe in Him and ask." So I used that standard with others; if they asked I would forgive them. But they keep sinning against us. Are they really sorry? I used to think no, because they keep doing you wrong.
But then as I grew, I realized Christ forgave us when we were yet sinners ... actually before we even asked or knew Him. How could this be? If He died 1990 years ago for my sins and I wasn't even born, it must have been a very powerful act that spiritually contained the sins of all time. Heaven is outside of our time domain. Christ's atonement for our sins had to be outside of time for our sins to be put on Him. So in Heaven, it was a done deal - past, present and future sins for all time atoned for on the cross on that day in history.
So LIGHT was shined on my disposition about forgiving others. They don't have to ask, some are too weak and immature in their walk, infants. Some are not even Christians. But we are to be salt and light and overlook offenses.
Additionally, forgiveness towards others is not only commanded, but it is for our own peace. Anger, hate and grudges held removes one's peace and joy. It disrupts your life and grieves the Spirit. When you forgive, you release those feelings and it is like a load lifted off your back. It is as if you carried their sins on your back and decided to dump them off. Why? Well, Christ forgave many of them of those sins - those who are written in the Book of Life. Concerning reprobates that are not redeemable, well ... we don't know who they are so Christ says, love your neighbor as yourself AND even your enemies.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't think your definition of "atonement" agrees with the NT definition. If I understand your video correctly, you equate "atonement" with "holiness" via the concept of "cleansing."

That is the biblical definition....reconciliation with a HOLY God.

As I understand the term "atonement" it refers to the reconciliation of two parties at enmity with each other. When two reconcile with each other, they cease being enemies and they become friends. They are no longer at war, they are at peace.

You are leaving out holiness.

Paul summarizes our condition in his epistle to the Romans.

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.​

justified by faith . . .
In Romans chapter 4, Paul argues that "justification" is a blessing of God, as described in a Psalm of David when he says, "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. Speaking of Abraham, Paul argues that God accounts them justified if they share the same faith as Abraham, being the father of our faith. (Romans 4:10-12)

we have peace with God . . .
Paul asserts that peace between God and his enemies came about by means of the cross of Christ. Paul often associates the cross of Christ with reconciliation (atonement.) "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Romans 5:10) Here Paul describes our change in status, having once been his enemies, through the death of his son, we became his friends. And what does God do for his friends? He saves them and grants them "aionic"* life.

we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Earlier, Paul asserted that our sin causes us to fall short of God's glory. What is God's glory if not his perfect moral goodness, righteousness, and love? Here Paul asserts that because God has accounted us "justified" and "at peace" with God we exult in hope of the glory of God. In other words, in Paul's view, walking without sin is a future hope. We don't see it now and since we don't see it now, it is a hope, "for who hopes in what he sees?"



______________________________
*"aionic" life = life as it will be in the final age.

And God grants this blessing to

The term "justified" comes from the same Greek word as "righteous." Justification takes place in view of our faith when God declares or accounts the believer as "right" with him.

Righteous is as righteous does. No one who practices unrighteousness is deemed righteous by God.

 

[ChristisGod]

Did you know that according to “ Episkopos “ you must know ZION before God will birth you in the Spirit.....?

Even though the word of God says.

John 3:8​

“The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”

Does he also know that the word of God is “ Alive and Active?....as of yet he still hasn’t explained what it means.

Hebrews 4:12​

​

New International Version​

​

​

12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

yikes the cart before the horse first of all and secondly there is no such thing as knowing zion.

we must know Christ first and then Christ crucified. once we know Christ through the new birth then we can know Him intimately through His death, burial and resurrection. His death provided forgiveness and paid for our sins and His resurrection gives us life and the power to live for Him though His Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

God loves Zion...He has chosen it for His habitation. There are many abiding places there...all available to us when we enter INTO Christ to be where He is.

Ps. 132: For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. 15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.


My heart is after Zion...after the heart of God. Do you think I care about what religious enthusiasts have to say about that? Of course not. The sad thing is that people today have no idea about the gospel and the access we have to God's holy provision. His holy resting place. The love, peace and joy to be found there...in HIS keeping power. It's the best kept secret in the world.

Ps. 76:2 In Shalem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.

You forget

God came to our place to visit us

He then died for us

He then went to sit by the right hand of the father, and sent the holy spirit, again to our place to visit us.

Now the kingdom of God is spiritual in nature But we do not get to it by being good. or professing to have some holiness that we do not have

If we want to enter. Jesus told us how, In john 3:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Now if this is the Zion that You are talking about. Jesus tells us how to enter in..

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Someone asked earlier if we could show you wrong by the word.

where here we have and you have been shown this multiple times, yet you refuse to answer. and mock this "born again" concept. because it does not fit your view.

 

[ChristisGod]

"GOD'S Forgiveness" is based on Christ's atonement for sins - His blood sacrifice. They go together. Righteous and holiness are both attributes of God.
He draws us to Himself and lifts that spiritual veil of blindness, our sin is revealed to us and we become humble and sorry. He presents the gospel, we believe, ask for forgiveness and He forgives us and creates a new creature, free of the bondage of sin. He takes up residence in our new Temple and sanctifies us. In Christ, we are pure but then the process of transforming us into the likeness of His son which means that our mind and behavior gradually grows to produce fruit. His attributes are imputed to us. So that when we do something right, it the Holy Spirit who ordains that act, is behind it, influences it, empowers it.
Our forgiveness towards others depends on how spiritually mature we are. How loving a person are we? How selfish? Selfish people hold grudges - I know, I used to be one. Still am a little, but as they say, I am a work in progress. We become more loving, generous, giving, willing to forgive and less judgmental.
I struggled with the concept of forgiveness in the beginning of my walk. My attitude used to be, "Well God only forgives if we believe in Him and ask." So I used that standard with others; if they asked I would forgive them. But they keep sinning against us. Are they really sorry? I used to think no, because they keep doing you wrong.
But then as I grew, I realized Christ forgave us when we were yet sinners ... actually before we even asked or knew Him. How could this be? If He died 1990 years ago for my sins and I wasn't even born, it must have been a very powerful act that spiritually contained the sins of all time. Heaven is outside of our time domain. Christ's atonement for our sins had to be outside of time for our sins to be put on Him. So in Heaven, it was a done deal - past, present and future sins for all time atoned for on the cross on that day in history.
So LIGHT was shined on my disposition about forgiving others. They don't have to ask, some are too weak and immature in their walk, infants. Some are not even Christians. But we are to be salt and light and overlook offenses.
Additionally, forgiveness towards others is not only commanded, but it is for our own peace. Anger, hate and grudges held removes one's peace and joy. It disrupts your life and grieves the Spirit. When you forgive, you release those feelings and it is like a load lifted off your back. It is as if you carried their sins on your back and decided to dump them off. Why? Well, Christ forgave many of them of those sins - thisebwh9 are written in the Book of Life. Concerning reprobates that are not redeemable, well ... we don't know who they are so Christ says, love your neighbor as yourself AND even your enemies.

Yes our forgiveness comes through His death for our sins and has nothing to do with righteousness.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is the biblical definition....reconciliation with a HOLY God.

How are we reconciled

You are leaving out holiness.

Righteous is as righteous does. No one who practices unrighteousness is deemed righteous by God.

No one is righteous before God, apart from reconciliation. they ago together. they are not seperate

No one who is born of God practices sin, so that it why they are not righteous.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hello Lizbeth,
The conversation here with Episkospos seemed to have devolved to a mormon conspiracy theory.

Ranting that has zero to do with actual “Mormon” beliefs.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There is no forgiveness without the atonement. Why...because God's Law has to be satisfied/fulfilled. He cannot go back on His word. It is a life for a life. And there is no remission/forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. Atonement means to reconcile....like in math reconciling both sides of the equation so they are equal. Reconciling a debt by paying the exact amount owing. In this case Someone offered to pay it for us by making His life an atonement. And a sacrifice has to be offered and eaten (ingested/received) by the same person in order for it to apply to them. Bring the Lamb, offer it to God, let it be roasted on the altar and then it had to be eaten. Eat the Word of God and drink of His Spirit in order to be forgiven and saved.

Actually, Jesus didn't reconcile the debt by paying the exact amount. Reconciliation, in this case, refers to a cessation of hostilities: two enemies become friends after they reconcile. It's more like when a husband and wife get back together and renew their marriage vows.

Remember the parable Jesus told about the man who owed the master more money than he could ever pay back? It's as if the master told his accountant to "write off" the debt, no longer to account the debt against him. That is what the Bible calls "justification" or "forgiveness."

The death of Jesus on the cross is the basis of our reconciliation (atonement) with God. This answers to the question, "what will it take for God to make peace with his enemies?"

 

[Episkopos]

Here is truth that will get religious posers in a snit.

When you get a sample of something (like grace at regeneration)...it is free...no cost. When you desire the product to the point where you go to the company that produces the product to BUY it...THEN you become known to the company. Otherwise the free sample does not put you in contact with the company at all. No...samples are handed out liberally.

How many will claim to know God based on the sample? many. But these cannot help but be rejected...I never knew you....because they never went to get the full measure of grace.

Being baptized in the Spirit is a reward for seeking God with a full surrender...just like any subsequent filling by the Spirit.

 

[Lizbeth]

Actually, Jesus didn't reconcile the debt by paying the exact amount. Reconciliation, in this case, refers to a cessation of hostilities: two enemies become friends after they reconcile. It's more like when a husband and wife get back together and renew their marriage vows.

Remember the parable Jesus told about the man who owed the master more money than he could ever pay back? It's as if the master told his accountant to "write off" the debt, no longer to account the debt against him. That is what the Bible calls "justification" or "forgiveness."

The death of Jesus on the cross is the basis of our reconciliation (atonement) with God. This answers to the question, "what will it take for God to make peace with his enemies?"

Yes, I believe we are reconciled to God - through the reconciliation of the debt (which is one definition of what atonement means). Agree that we couldn't reconcile that debt, but only the perfect spotless sinless Lamb of God could and did on behalf of all who would believe in Him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Here is truth that will get religious posers in a snit.

When you get a sample of something (like grace at regeneration)...it is free...no cost. When you desire the product to the point where you go to the company that produces the product to BUY it...THEN you become known to the company. Otherwise the free sample does not put you in contact with the company at all. No...samples are handed out liberally.

How many will claim to know God based on the sample? many. But these cannot help but be rejected...I never knew you....because they never went to get the full measure of grace.

Being baptized in the Spirit is a reward for seeking God with a full surrender...just like any subsequent filling by the Spirit.

The truth is this

Unless you are born again, you will not see the kingdom of God.

You can try to get into it your own way, or you can be brought into it Gods way.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, I believe we are reconciled to God - through the reconciliation of the debt (which is one definition of what atonement means). Agree that we couldn't reconcile that debt, but only the perfect spotless sinless Lamb of God could and did on behalf of all who would believe in Him.

Yes...the sins that are past...as the bible teaches. Whoever sins willfully after that is NOT covered by that...according to that very same bible. What is willful sin? The same sin as the Israelites in the wilderness....testing God through stubbornness and unbelief. Hey, just look at those who oppose my posts... coincidence?

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes...the sins that are past...as the bible teaches. Whoever sins willfully after that is NOT covered by that...according to that very same bible. What is willful sin? The same sin as the Israelites in the wilderness....testing God through stubbornness and unbelief. Hey, just look at those who oppose my posts... coincidence?

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Same chapter you posted

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

1 John 2: 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

You need to learn the difference between Gods people. and those who just claim to be Gods people.

 

[Episkopos]

Same chapter you posted

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

1 John 2: 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

You need to learn the difference between Gods people. and those who just claim to be Gods people.

So you are saying that the Israelites were just claiming to be God's people...but weren't? Is this from a psychologist' point of view? Or the bible?

And since you are ignoring the bible...is it My people perish for lack of knowledge? Or those who SAY they are My people perish for lack of knowledge.

Do you claim also to be among God's people? Or maybe you wouldn't want to be lumped in with others who say that?

 

[amigo de christo]

The problem is that his "higher walk in Zion" is Book Of Mormon.

""""" The word "Zion" appears 53 times in the Book of Mormon, a key part of the Latter Day Saint canon, and 268 times in the LDS Church's version of the Doctrine and Covenants, a part of its canon consisting of what members believe to be modern-day revelation and written down by Smith mostly in the 19th century.
-
Why do Mormons go to Zion?

In latter-day revelation, Zion is defined as “the pure in heart” (Doctrine and Covenants 97:21). In the early days of this dispensation, Church leaders counseled members to build up Zion by emigrating to a central location. Today our leaders counsel us to build up Zion wherever we live.""""

Lets not forget if one cometh and preaches that other religoins and anyone and all can pick up their cross
and have no need to have beleived on JESUS CHRIST , well its all vain .
Never forget what that man has said to responses about muslims , buddists , atheists
and the idea that its not about HAVING to BELIEVE IN JESUS at all . I aint the only one who has seen this either .
The man wont point to What is NECESSARY , to the gospel , to the dire need to believe to have FAITH
in HE whom GOD did send . NEVER FORGET THAT . John in chapter two
would have easily said what this cometh from and is of .......................GO read john chapter two real slowly .
And then remember these words well , IF any cometh and brings not this gospel ....................................

 

[faithfulness]

God loves Zion...He has chosen it for His habitation. There are many abiding places there...all available to us when we enter INTO Christ to be where He is.

Ps. 132: For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. 15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.


My heart is after Zion...after the heart of God. Do you think I care about what religious enthusiasts have to say about that? Of course not. The sad thing is that people today have no idea about the gospel and the access we have to God's holy provision. His holy resting place. The love, peace and joy to be found there...in HIS keeping power. It's the best kept secret in the world.

Ps. 76:2 In Shalem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.

I used to sing this song years ago:

Zion is a place of singing.
Zion is a place of joy.
Zion is the dwelling of the Lord.
Zion is a place of worship.
Zion is a place of praise.
Zion is the dwelling of the Lord.

So let us climb the hill of Zion,
To the city of the living God.
To the city of the living God.
To the city of the living God.
So let us climb the hill of Zion,
To the city of the living God.
For the ark of the testimony is in our midst