Surf Rider
New Member
I wish to make two points here. The first is to Anastacia, and tha second is to all, in which I thrown my hat into the ring, so to speak.
Frist, I'll try to communicate better here. Sorry if I haven't so far, Anastacia. The verses that I've not "acknowledged" for free choice, I've done so on the basis that it is one's belief that we have free choice that allows them to use those verses, when in fact, they are also used, many of them, by those who espouse no free choice. What I was requesting to see was scripture in which the Lord is stating that He has given a choice, so please would they make it one way or the other. Not implied, but outright stated using such words as "I set before you life and death, choose...." such as in the one quoted by a poster way back near the beginning of this thread. In that verse, we clearly see God expressly stating that options were given clearly by Him, and He expects us to choose. All other verses are used based upon one's belief, either for or against free choice. As such, in a technical debate, they are not usable. And yes, that type of debate must be utilized here, as the opposing camps cannot both be listening to the Spirit on this topic, so that cannot be appealed to for either camp, as they can both level that accusation against the other. These things I had assumed in my previous statements, and I hope that this clears the air on why my comments regarding certain scriptures conscripted by you. I agree with your useage of them, but in this thread they are not allowable evidence, as they are seen by many to be prejudicial in nature. Or at least their usage is considered such. Therefore, they are considered such merely by appropriation.
I really don't know how to say it better than that. Sorry.
To all the posters on this thread....
There are many topics in the word of God in which people can pull out explicit scripture stating for opposing view points. Some people see these "opposing" scriptures as proof of errancy, and thus they use this as an excuse to deny God. This is a favorite ploy of hier critics. This is a very common practice amongst the unsaved, and now seems to be more prevalent even amongst those of the faith.
However, that is not of God. One cannot selectively pick and choose, thereby ignoring scripture that clearly states contrary to one's view, even though other scriptures are clearly used for one's view. God is not double minded! And He made no mistakes in the scriptures. I find that many believers, on a fair number of topics of the faith, actually and actively do this: they ignore scripture that is problematic to their belief, and use those which support their belief to supersede or trump the "uncomfortable" scriptures. That is not of God. It is demonic, sensual, carnal, arrogant, denying of God. It precludes the Spirit. It is not scriptural humility or meekness by any stretch of the imagination. It is the opposite of that.
The very fact that there are scriptures that undeniably state things that do not fit our beliefs prove us to be unlearned and blind to spiritual truth on that topic: evidence of a state of heart that is not broken and contrite, waiting upon the Lord for insight that would reconcile all the scriptures on it, in a most perfect and beautiful way -- even while it asks God for understanding. Or it is submissive to God but He hasn't given it understanding yet on that topic. And that heart will not state one way or the other, acknowledging it's lack of maturity in that issue. This often takes years of waiting upon the Lord. This is why the word states, "wait upon the Lord. And again I say, WAIT!"
There are a number of topics in the word of God in which I have no opinion whatsoever. I choose not to. Why? Because I see scripture that can be used for or against either side, and I have yet to receive from the Lord that spiritual insight that clarifies it all for me. Until then, to hold to either side of the issue is being raised up agains the Spirit and is intent on having the answer right now, no matter the evidence that I do not understand. We all decry this when this is done in law enforcement and someone is convicted wrongly by selective evidence being used. What a travesty when that occurs! Yet how much more incredible and tragic that is, when it occurs spiritually! My brethren -- this aught not be so! Flee from this. What profit is there in such? Do we really love the praise of men more than humility and waiting for years for God to teach us what He deems right for us to learn at the moment? Perhaps God knows best, and is desireous of teaching us on something else that is more critical in our life at present! Who are we to tell God that we need to understand a specific thing right now? Even when the angel was sent to give Daniel some clarification, Daniel didn't understand. The angel then gave more clarification. Daniel still didn't understand. The angel gave more. Daniel, the great, great Daniel, still didn't understand. And he was then told that no more would be given to him on it, and he'd have to live with not understanding it. Who are we, that we assume that we are greater than Daniel? Do we think that we are due anything from God, and that we are entitled to understand everything in the word of God? Do we think that we know that which we aught to, or have the "right" to understand, and that which is just fine for us to not understand?
I was really hoping to see people address that scripture from Deut. that was given near the beginning of this thread, but it was basically ignored. That reveals much, and proves the statements that I have made in this post.
And please don't just read that one verse. That chapter of Deut. is quite short. And interestingly enough, that passage gives both statements: God does as He wishes with the souls and hearts of mankind -- leaving them no option; and He also gives them free choice. Both are perfectly correct, and fit most perfectly together throughout the scriptures. They overlay each other, neither superseding the other. They have different situation applications, and this is taught in the scriptures. This is true of God's love and Justice, Mercy and condemnation. The list goes on. We err to mess with these things and trump the one with the other. God asked Job some questions along this line, and Job readily realized the truth. I will not ask any more here. Sufficient has been given, yet if one is interested, go to the last bit of Job and read God's reply to Job, and how Job replied to God's rebuke.
O, that we would all have the heart of Job. We wouldn't be able to hide that!
Then, if you were to read the short chapter before that one in Deut,, there is even more clarification on it.
Regarding the David and counting the army issue that a poster brought up judicially, there is also a scripture that states that it was David's choice. All three are completely correct. Neither conflicts with or contradicts any of the others, let alone ignores or negates the others.
I must agree with Paul in one of his NT letters: the very fact that we are arguing over a topic proves that we are carnally minded. If we are proven to be carnally minded, who among us is willing to humble themselves and admit this fact which God sees? If this is not done, indeed, spiritual insight from God will not be forthcoming on the topic that we are carnally minded on! To believe otherwise is to completely prove our carnal mindedness, our blindness on these things, no matter how many years we've "studied" it out, asked God for insight, etc.. It is a state of the heart that God rewards with insight, not bible study itself, or the Pharisees were far more godly than most of us will ever be!
Both sides are correct, so long as they don't dismiss the other side. That is not a contradictory statement. Free choice is clearly taught in the scriptures. God's overridding sovereignty which denies free choice is clearly taught in the scriptures. To hold that either one is constantly in the fore regarding all men, at all times for those men, is errant and contradicts scripture. If this be not true, scripture undeniably contradicts itself and we have opted to continue in not understanding the issue and have chosen the one over the other, to the annulment of clear scripture, no matter which side you are on.
Grow in grace AND in the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Frist, I'll try to communicate better here. Sorry if I haven't so far, Anastacia. The verses that I've not "acknowledged" for free choice, I've done so on the basis that it is one's belief that we have free choice that allows them to use those verses, when in fact, they are also used, many of them, by those who espouse no free choice. What I was requesting to see was scripture in which the Lord is stating that He has given a choice, so please would they make it one way or the other. Not implied, but outright stated using such words as "I set before you life and death, choose...." such as in the one quoted by a poster way back near the beginning of this thread. In that verse, we clearly see God expressly stating that options were given clearly by Him, and He expects us to choose. All other verses are used based upon one's belief, either for or against free choice. As such, in a technical debate, they are not usable. And yes, that type of debate must be utilized here, as the opposing camps cannot both be listening to the Spirit on this topic, so that cannot be appealed to for either camp, as they can both level that accusation against the other. These things I had assumed in my previous statements, and I hope that this clears the air on why my comments regarding certain scriptures conscripted by you. I agree with your useage of them, but in this thread they are not allowable evidence, as they are seen by many to be prejudicial in nature. Or at least their usage is considered such. Therefore, they are considered such merely by appropriation.
I really don't know how to say it better than that. Sorry.
To all the posters on this thread....
There are many topics in the word of God in which people can pull out explicit scripture stating for opposing view points. Some people see these "opposing" scriptures as proof of errancy, and thus they use this as an excuse to deny God. This is a favorite ploy of hier critics. This is a very common practice amongst the unsaved, and now seems to be more prevalent even amongst those of the faith.
However, that is not of God. One cannot selectively pick and choose, thereby ignoring scripture that clearly states contrary to one's view, even though other scriptures are clearly used for one's view. God is not double minded! And He made no mistakes in the scriptures. I find that many believers, on a fair number of topics of the faith, actually and actively do this: they ignore scripture that is problematic to their belief, and use those which support their belief to supersede or trump the "uncomfortable" scriptures. That is not of God. It is demonic, sensual, carnal, arrogant, denying of God. It precludes the Spirit. It is not scriptural humility or meekness by any stretch of the imagination. It is the opposite of that.
The very fact that there are scriptures that undeniably state things that do not fit our beliefs prove us to be unlearned and blind to spiritual truth on that topic: evidence of a state of heart that is not broken and contrite, waiting upon the Lord for insight that would reconcile all the scriptures on it, in a most perfect and beautiful way -- even while it asks God for understanding. Or it is submissive to God but He hasn't given it understanding yet on that topic. And that heart will not state one way or the other, acknowledging it's lack of maturity in that issue. This often takes years of waiting upon the Lord. This is why the word states, "wait upon the Lord. And again I say, WAIT!"
There are a number of topics in the word of God in which I have no opinion whatsoever. I choose not to. Why? Because I see scripture that can be used for or against either side, and I have yet to receive from the Lord that spiritual insight that clarifies it all for me. Until then, to hold to either side of the issue is being raised up agains the Spirit and is intent on having the answer right now, no matter the evidence that I do not understand. We all decry this when this is done in law enforcement and someone is convicted wrongly by selective evidence being used. What a travesty when that occurs! Yet how much more incredible and tragic that is, when it occurs spiritually! My brethren -- this aught not be so! Flee from this. What profit is there in such? Do we really love the praise of men more than humility and waiting for years for God to teach us what He deems right for us to learn at the moment? Perhaps God knows best, and is desireous of teaching us on something else that is more critical in our life at present! Who are we to tell God that we need to understand a specific thing right now? Even when the angel was sent to give Daniel some clarification, Daniel didn't understand. The angel then gave more clarification. Daniel still didn't understand. The angel gave more. Daniel, the great, great Daniel, still didn't understand. And he was then told that no more would be given to him on it, and he'd have to live with not understanding it. Who are we, that we assume that we are greater than Daniel? Do we think that we are due anything from God, and that we are entitled to understand everything in the word of God? Do we think that we know that which we aught to, or have the "right" to understand, and that which is just fine for us to not understand?
I was really hoping to see people address that scripture from Deut. that was given near the beginning of this thread, but it was basically ignored. That reveals much, and proves the statements that I have made in this post.
And please don't just read that one verse. That chapter of Deut. is quite short. And interestingly enough, that passage gives both statements: God does as He wishes with the souls and hearts of mankind -- leaving them no option; and He also gives them free choice. Both are perfectly correct, and fit most perfectly together throughout the scriptures. They overlay each other, neither superseding the other. They have different situation applications, and this is taught in the scriptures. This is true of God's love and Justice, Mercy and condemnation. The list goes on. We err to mess with these things and trump the one with the other. God asked Job some questions along this line, and Job readily realized the truth. I will not ask any more here. Sufficient has been given, yet if one is interested, go to the last bit of Job and read God's reply to Job, and how Job replied to God's rebuke.
O, that we would all have the heart of Job. We wouldn't be able to hide that!
Then, if you were to read the short chapter before that one in Deut,, there is even more clarification on it.
Regarding the David and counting the army issue that a poster brought up judicially, there is also a scripture that states that it was David's choice. All three are completely correct. Neither conflicts with or contradicts any of the others, let alone ignores or negates the others.
I must agree with Paul in one of his NT letters: the very fact that we are arguing over a topic proves that we are carnally minded. If we are proven to be carnally minded, who among us is willing to humble themselves and admit this fact which God sees? If this is not done, indeed, spiritual insight from God will not be forthcoming on the topic that we are carnally minded on! To believe otherwise is to completely prove our carnal mindedness, our blindness on these things, no matter how many years we've "studied" it out, asked God for insight, etc.. It is a state of the heart that God rewards with insight, not bible study itself, or the Pharisees were far more godly than most of us will ever be!
Both sides are correct, so long as they don't dismiss the other side. That is not a contradictory statement. Free choice is clearly taught in the scriptures. God's overridding sovereignty which denies free choice is clearly taught in the scriptures. To hold that either one is constantly in the fore regarding all men, at all times for those men, is errant and contradicts scripture. If this be not true, scripture undeniably contradicts itself and we have opted to continue in not understanding the issue and have chosen the one over the other, to the annulment of clear scripture, no matter which side you are on.
Grow in grace AND in the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.