Free Will

[Jimmy Engle]

SaberTruth,

The fall of Adam resulted in the fallen world and the death of men. To say that Psalms is poetic and that David didn't mean what he said in Psalm 51:5 must be very convenient for you.
Romans 5:12-14.........speaking of verse 14 in particular, even without the law, death was universal. All men from Adam to Moses were subject to death, not because of their sinful acts against the Mosaic law..which they didn't even have yet....but because of their own inherited sinful nature.

 

[SaberTruth]

SaberTruth,

The fall of Adam resulted in the fallen world and the death of men. To say that Psalms is poetic and that David didn't mean what he said in Psalm 51:5 must be very convenient for you.
Romans 5:12-14.........speaking of verse 14 in particular, even without the law, death was universal. All men from Adam to Moses were subject to death, not because of their sinful acts against the Mosaic law..which they didn't even have yet....but because of their own inherited sinful nature.

James: To say that Psalms is poetic (which is what psalms are by definition!) does NOT mean "David didn't mean what he said"! I've tried to get this across already but obviously it isn't working. The question is NOT whether David meant what he said, but whether we grasp what he said. And it wasn't "doctrine".

Re. Rom. 5:14 this is EXACTLY MY POINT, the one I've been making all along. It is PHYSICAL DEATH, not some alleged spiritual inheritance, that we got from Adam. But I've seen this before, where people try to switch arguments in midstream and then attack their own former position as if it had been their opponent's. Not playing this game anymore, James. Enough already, please don't make me put you on "ignore" for ignoring my points and endlessly repeating your assertions.

 

[Anastacia]

God sometimes commands a person to do what in himself he is totally unable to do. An example of this is in Matthew 14:28 Peter said to Him, "Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water. 29 “Come,” he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

Another example to this is the man with the withered hand (Mark 3:1-5). Jesus gave him the command, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. How could the man do this if he suffered from a paralyzed hand? Christ gave the command, the man obeyed and God enabled. Christ enabled him to do the impossible. So also the sinner is commanded to believe on Christ. If the sinner fails to obey this command then he is guilty of disobeying the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8). No one will ever be able to use the excuse that they weren‘t first regenerated to believe. God commands, then man is responsible to obey. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

Regeneration does not precede faith. They both take place at the same time. The moment a person is saved by the Lord Jesus Christ he is born again (regenerated).
Do we need life in order to believe or do we need to believe in order to have life?

The jailer asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30). They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” (Acts 16:31).

The Bible clearly and plainly tells us to believe and thou shalt live! Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life John 6:47. John 3:15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

The Calvinist (believers in total depravity) says, "live and thou shalt believe!" Notice that John 1:12 does not say this. John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
See, too, that in John 20:31, John says, “ But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
It does not say “that by having life you may believe.”

In his helpless and hopeless condition the sinner is told to look to the Lord Jesus and live. (John 3:14-16; Numbers 21).

The Calvinist teaches that a person must have life in order to believe. The Lord Jesus taught that a person must believe (come to Christ) in order to have life. John 5:40

Why can't men believe? Why don't men come to Christ? There are many scriptures that tells us why people don't believe and be saved. I've given many in this thread. Jesus said “yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

To "come to Christ" has the same meaning as "believing on Him" (See John 6:35, 37, 40). Why do people not believe on Christ? It is not because they have not been regenerated, it is because they refuse to come to Christ by faith (John 5:40; 2 Thessalonians 2:10,12).

If regeneration comes before faith, then this would make faith unnecessary since the person would already be saved. If a person is regenerated, then he is born of God, and a member of God’s family and has eternal life. Calvinism is a false doctrine. As is total depravity.

 

[Surf Rider]

You say that no one can have faith in God unless regenerated by the Holy Spirit first. Then show me that from the scriptures. Where does it say that? It doesn't.

I just read through all my posts on this thread and haven't seen any such statement by me. But then again, my wife says that I have the bad habit of looking for something and not finding it when it's right there. So if you could be so kind as to show me where I stated that, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

 

[Anastacia]

I just read through all my posts on this thread and haven't seen any such statement by me. But then again, my wife says that I have the bad habit of looking for something and not finding it when it's right there. So if you could be so kind as to show me where I stated that, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

You and James have been defending Calvinism. You have even said some horrible things to non Calvins and people who speak up for their beliefs. My next post I will show some of the horrible things you have said here about others.

And that is as far as I'm going to do with searching past posts by you, especially since we do have an edit option.

 

[Anastacia]

To all the posters on this thread....

There are many topics in the word of God in which people can pull out explicit scripture stating for opposing view points. Some people see these "opposing" scriptures as proof of errancy, and thus they use this as an excuse to deny God. This is a favorite ploy of hier critics. This is a very common practice amongst the unsaved, and now seems to be more prevalent even amongst those of the faith.

However, that is not of God. One cannot selectively pick and choose, thereby ignoring scripture that clearly states contrary to one's view, even though other scriptures are clearly used for one's view. God is not double minded! And He made no mistakes in the scriptures. I find that many believers, on a fair number of topics of the faith, actually and actively do this: they ignore scripture that is problematic to their belief, and use those which support their belief to supersede or trump the "uncomfortable" scriptures. That is not of God. It is demonic, sensual, carnal, arrogant, denying of God. It precludes the Spirit. It is not scriptural humility or meekness by any stretch of the imagination. It is the opposite of that.

You post some ugly stuff against others on here. You know more how to put down others than prove from scripture your beliefs. You've done nothing but put down people completely because of the fact that you don't like it that we are confident and sure of our beliefs, and that we speak up against what we believe are false doctrines.

You falsely judge others. And you defend false doctrine.

 

[[email protected]]

In the comfortable self-righteousness of Calvinist theology, adherents see themselves as among the elect of Heaven, immune to the tribulations of the spirit and flesh suffered by the rest of humanity.

They believe that they have received a ticket to paradise which cannot be rescinded and they gleefully and shamelessly address the rest of us from their religious altitude.

Unfortunately their dogma does not exhalt God, does not edify the church and does not inspire the unchurched, unsaved, spiritually homeless of the world.

It is a bankrupt arrogant doctrine, full of worldly pride and devoid of love and consideration for anyone or anything apart from itself.

It is not of God.

 

[Mjh29]

Calvinists like to create a false dilemma between free will and sovereignty. But God, in His sovereignty, can grant man free will. I think being made in God's image entails that very quality of free will, and that the real cause of sin is not predestination (Adam and Eve) or nature (everyone else) but sentience; we have the "sovereignty" to either accept or reject God. And it must be so, because the love of one who is not free is not genuine, and such fake love would be unworthy of God.

I must disagree. Man's will is not at all free, it is in bondage to SIN!
JOHN 8:34
Jesus answered them, "Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, that everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin."
Have you ever sinned? Then your will is not free; you are a slave to your father Satan. [Look up slave to father satan if you disagree]
Calvinism does not FORCE you to love God, however, God [being....well, GOD!] never fails in His attempts to change hearts, you could say He is the Perfect Evangelist, for when He calls, His creatures listen, and He causes you to fall in love with Jesus Christ.
Christian brother, Calvinism does not teach forced salvation; God rips Satans blindfold off of our eyes even thougn we dont want His to, and makes us see the beauty of Jesus Christ. Its like the child who doesnt want to get on the slide. At first, the child resists with all his might; but after seeing the true joy of sliding, he goes again and again, and the Father says "See, now dont I know what is best for you?" Yet, how much greater is a God who, instead of destroying all of sinnful humanity, rips the blindfold off of His beloved; and once we irresistibly [] fall in love with our Savior, the Father too says "See, now dont I know what is best for you?" Though He rips off the blindfold of Satan, THERE IS NO FORCE NEEDED FOR US TO LOVE OUR PERFECT SAVIOR AFTER THAT! OUR HEARTS CHANGED BY A LOVING GOD, WE EMBRACE JESUS FOR WHO HE IS, AND FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE!

 

[bbyrd009]

You post some ugly stuff against others on here. You know more how to put down others than prove from scripture your beliefs. You've done nothing but put down people completely because of the fact that you don't like it that we are confident and sure of our beliefs, and that we speak up against what we believe are false doctrines.

You falsely judge others. And you defend false doctrine.

hmm, i have to ask whom has he falsely judged? And what belief do you have that you are so confident in? Any example will do. Although i am seeing now that perhaps you took his statement more personally than am, and this is affecting your answer.

 

[perrero]

I must disagree. Man's will is not at all free, it is in bondage to SIN!

You misunderstand the will. The will is like anger. Anger is a catalyst. It will drive you to sin (ie: commit murder) or drive you to do better. (if someone hurts us it can drive to be forgiving and unconditionally loving)
If the will is directly tied to sin, then it is not the will but a handicap, like a club foot.
The will is simply the faculty of choice that when exercised will bring consequences of your good choices or your bad choices. You only are responsible for your choices.

Explain to me how God can created humans destined to heaven and others destined to hell?

 

[Mjh29]

You misunderstand the will. The will is like anger. Anger is a catalyst. It will drive you to sin (ie: commit murder) or drive you to do better. (if someone hurts us it can drive to be forgiving and unconditionally loving)
If the will is directly tied to sin, then it is not the will but a handicap, like a club foot.
The will is simply the faculty of choice that when exercised will bring consequences of your good choices or your bad choices. You only are responsible for your choices.

Explain to me how God can created humans destined to heaven and others destined to hell?

Tl

You misunderstand the will. The will is like anger. Anger is a catalyst. It will drive you to sin (ie: commit murder) or drive you to do better. (if someone hurts us it can drive to be forgiving and unconditionally loving)
If the will is directly tied to sin, then it is not the will but a handicap, like a club foot.
The will is simply the faculty of choice that when exercised will bring consequences of your good choices or your bad choices. You only are responsible for your choices.

Explain to me how God can created humans destined to heaven and others destined to hell?

"It is not within the creature's jurisdiction to call into question the justice of the Creator for not choosing everyone for salvation...the fact that He did this for some, to the exclusion of others, is in no way unfair to the latter group, unless of course one maintains that God was under obligation to provide salvation for sinners -- a position which the Bible utterly rejects"
Steele, Thomas, and Quinn, The 5 Points.
Explain to me where we have the authority to call into question the perfect attributes of God, such as His love and Justice?
And yes, you are absolutely right. Our human, sinful will IS a handicap, which is why sinful men do not turn to God. But the good news is that Jesus paid it all. He paid for me: to change my heart and yes, my WILL!

 

[Mjh29]

In the comfortable self-righteousness of Calvinist theology, adherents see themselves as among the elect of Heaven, immune to the tribulations of the spirit and flesh suffered by the rest of humanity.

They believe that they have received a ticket to paradise which cannot be rescinded and they gleefully and shamelessly address the rest of us from their religious altitude.

Unfortunately their dogma does not exhalt God, does not edify the church and does not inspire the unchurched, unsaved, spiritually homeless of the world.

It is a bankrupt arrogant doctrine, full of worldly pride and devoid of love and consideration for anyone or anything apart from itself.

It is not of God.

OUCH!!! And you say Calvinists are judgmental
My reply is how much more self-righteous can you be than to say
"No, no, God didnt choose Me, I chose God!"
Thats... um..... the definition of LITERAL self-righteousness
Just.... found it ironic

 

[perrero]

Tl


"It is not within the creature's jurisdiction to call into question the justice of the Creator for not choosing everyone for salvation...the fact that He did this for some, to the exclusion of others, is in no way unfair to the latter group, unless of course one maintains that God was under obligation to provide salvation for sinners -- a position which the Bible utterly rejects"
Steele, Thomas, and Quinn, The 5 Points.
Explain to me where we have the authority to call into question the perfect attributes of God, such as His love and Justice?
And yes, you are absolutely right. Our human, sinful will IS a handicap, which is why sinful men do not turn to God. But the good news is that Jesus paid it all.

I see, so when you cannot answer why God creates both good and evil (in contradiction to James 3:11, Isaiah 5:20, Psalm 5:4), you deflect to the creature not allowed to question the Creator (in contradiction with Isaiah 1:18) we must trust in His justice. (Some justice that is, when you are condemned before even being born)
God's attributes work in unity, one attribute cannot supersede another. They are all equal as they are all infinite as He is infinite. Therefore unlike Calvinist heresy, justice and sovereignty cannot supersede love. To create someone strictly to go to hell is not loving, not merciful, not kind and therefore cannot be trumped by sovereignty. Especially when He says Himself that he is not willing that any should perish, yet He creates billions of people to go to hell. God's a liar. But that's OK as long as he is sovereign and just, He can still portray Himself as loving and merciful. He, is the Great Deceiver, not the Devil.

And please do not misquote me. I did not say that human sinful will is a handicap. These are your words. There is nothing sinful about the will nor is there anything good about it. The will is only the God given right to choose between good and evil. It is the God given faculty that makes us real and not robots.

 

[perrero]

OUCH!!! And you say Calvinists are judgmental
My reply is how much more self-righteous can you be than to say
"No, no, God didnt choose Me, I chose God!"
Thats... um..... the definition of LITERAL self-righteousness
Just.... found it ironic

(Newsflash) Yes, we do choose God. This is the faculty of choice He deliberately gave us, so that when we do choose Him, it is truly genuine. Not forced, not contrived, not preset. God is in no need for toys. A bunch of GI Joes that He will have fun with in heaven and even a greater bunch that He can watch burn in hell.
Here's something. Have you ever wondered why God created more to go to hell than to go to heaven? Is there more room in hell than in heaven?
No, don't answer that. I already know. It's because of His justice and sovereignty.

What was God sovereign over when there was no creation? Or was HE sovereign when there is nothing to be sovereign over.
Why did He create beings to be sovereign over? Was there an inferiority complex? Did He have a great need to lord it over someone?
So many questions. I know it's overwhelming. Too bad we can't question Him, too bad we can't reason with Him, too bad we can't boldly go before Him with these things.

 

[bbyrd009]

"It is not within the creature's jurisdiction to call into question the justice of the Creator for not choosing everyone for salvation...the fact that He did this for some, to the exclusion of others,

k you are aware this is whack, right
this totally misrepresents salvation. No one is excluded. Anyone who seeks God may find Him. And you are not born a sinner, that is crap too. You have no Scripture to back any of this up, and neither does whomever it is you are quoting, which i notice is not Scripture, sorry.

 

[Mjh29]

I

(Newsflash) Yes, we do choose God. This is the faculty of choice He deliberately gave us, so that when we do choose Him, it is truly genuine. Not forced, not contrived, not preset. God is in no need for toys. A bunch of GI Joes that He will have fun with in heaven and even a greater bunch that He can watch burn in hell.
Here's something. Have you ever wondered why God created more to go to hell than to go to heaven? Is there more room in hell than in heaven?
No, don't answer that. I already know. It's because of His justice and sovereignty.

What was God sovereign over when there was no creation? Or was HE sovereign when there is nothing to be sovereign over.
Why did He create beings to be sovereign over? Was there an inferiority complex? Did He have a great need to lord it over someone?
So many questions. I know it's overwhelming. Too bad we can't question Him, too bad we can't reason with Him, too bad we boldly go before Him with these things.

I see, so when you cannot answer why God creates both good and evil (in contradiction to James 3:11, Isaiah 5:20, Psalm 5:4), you deflect to the creature not allowed to question the Creator (in contradiction with Isaiah 1:18) we must trust in His justice. (Some justice that is when you are condemn before even being born)
God's attributes work in unity, one attribute cannot supersede another. They are all equal as they are all infinite as He is infinite. Therefore unlike Calvinist heresy, justice and sovereignty cannot supersede love. To create someone strictly to go to hell is not loving, not merciful, not kind and therefore cannot be trumped by sovereignty. Especially when He says Himself that he is not willing that any should perish, yet He creates billions of people to go to hell. God's a liar. But that's OK as long as he is sovereign and just, He can still portray Himself as loving and merciful. He, is the Great Deceiver, not the Devil.

And please do not misquote me. I did not say that human sinful will is a handicap. These are your words. There is nothing sinful about the will nor is there anything good about it. The will is only the God given right to choose between good and evil. It is the God given faculty that makes us real and not robots.

k you are aware this is whack, right
this totally misrepresents salvation. No one is excluded. Anyone who seeks God may find Him. And you are not born a sinner, that is crap too. You have no Scripture to back any of this up, and neither does whomever it is you are quoting, which i notice is not Scripture, sorry.

Rom. 9:19, Rom. 10:20, 1 Cor. 1:27-29, Acts 13:48, Phil. 2:12-13, 1 Thess. 1:4-5, Rom 11:7..... theres more but im not gonna type them all. Read Rom. 9:10-24 also.

 

[bbyrd009]

I




Rom. 9:19, Rom. 10:20, 1 Cor. 1:27-29, Acts 13:48, Phil. 2:12-13, 1 Thess. 1:4-5, Rom 11:7..... theres more but im not gonna type them all. Read Rom. 9:10-24 also.

how bout we just skip to the bottom one, as this will illustrate why you are not qualified to be arbiter of God's selection, and your handlers are using this perception against you, to bring you into condemnation, as they are condemned:

22 If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure
23 and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right?
24 Either or both happens to Jews, but it also happens to the other people.
25 Hosea put it well: I'll call nobodies and make them somebodies; I'll call the unloved and make them beloved.
26 In the place where they yelled out, "You're nobody!" they're calling you "God's living children."

Wherein you might see that this is the opposite of we humans do, which is to assume the mantle of discernment or judgement, a la "i love me some Jesus, therefore you must listen to me when i tell you _________," in this case supposedly "how to discern who is lost or saved." Because after all you now have a passage that suggests predestination.

Of course this is not the stated purpose, but it is the end result nonetheless. People read "...and God cause Pharaohs heart to harden" and naturally assume that God literally interfered with Pharaoh's free will, reading logically, when that is not what is meant at all.

And the whole point is of course to be able to identify these whom God has wrought for destruction, that we may lord it over them, right, or if there is some fruit of this heinous yack that i am overlooking, then by all means please state it now.

 

[Mjh29]

how bout we just skip to the bottom one, as this will illustrate why you are not qualified to be arbiter of God's selection, and your handlers are using this perception against you, to bring you into condemnation, as they are condemned:

22 If God needs one style of pottery especially designed to show his angry displeasure
23 and another style carefully crafted to show his glorious goodness, isn't that all right?
24 Either or both happens to Jews, but it also happens to the other people.
25 Hosea put it well: I'll call nobodies and make them somebodies; I'll call the unloved and make them beloved.
26 In the place where they yelled out, "You're nobody!" they're calling you "God's living children."

Wherein you might see that this is the opposite of we humans do, which is to assume the mantle of discernment or judgement, a la "i love me some Jesus, therefore you must listen to me when i tell you _________," in this case supposedly "how to discern who is lost or saved." Because after all you now have a passage that suggests predestination.

Of course this is not the stated purpose, but it is the end result nonetheless. People read "...and God cause Pharaohs heart to harden" and naturally assume that God literally interfered with Pharaoh's free will, reading logically, when that is not what is meant at all.

And the whole point is of course to be able to identify these whom God has wrought for destruction, that we may lord it over them, right, or if there is some fruit of this heinous yack that i am overlooking, then by all means please state it now.

So what do you suggest this passage to mean? And I don't read the words 'lord it over anywhere.'
And while your at it explain all of the other passages that contain the same 'heinous yack'

 

[bbyrd009]

So what do you suggest this passage to mean? And I don't read the words 'lord it over anywhere.'
And while your at it explain all of the other passages that contain the same 'heinous yack'

the division of good and evil runs down the middle of each person, and can only be manifest in the now; hence the futility of such concepts as "i am saved" in the way we see that, or believing that because there is a thing called predestination some human might consider themselves qualified to start differentiating, which i promise you is the point of, basically, the doctrine of Original Sin, what we are really talking about now.

"There's some bad people out there, and you can trust me/us to identify them for you." Of course this is not stated, but it is the agenda. If the connection to the passage is not clear, consider that even these "predestined" for evil, on an individual basis must each individually violate the Law of sin and death, and Grace is available to all; note the difference to the doctrine of Original Sin, where all are automatically condemned at birth, when this can only be substantiated by doctrinal acrobatics.

 

[Mjh29]

the division of good and evil runs down the middle of each person, and can only be manifest in the now; hence the futility of such concepts as "i am saved" in the way we see that, or believing that because there is a thing called predestination some human might consider themselves qualified to start differentiating, which i promise you is the point of, basically, the doctrine of Original Sin, what we are really talking about now.

"There's some bad people out there, and you can trust me/us to identify them for you." Of course this is not stated, but it is the agenda. If the connection to the passage is not clear, consider that even these "predestined" for evil, on an individual basis must each individually violate the Law of sin and death, and Grace is available to all; note the difference to the doctrine of Original Sin, where all are automatically condemned at birth.

Would you say that God operates fairly?