Free Will

[bbyrd009]

Would you say that God operates fairly?

would a child say that their parent operates fairly? My pov there is therefore irrelevant at best, beside the fact that there is much evidence that all are saved in the end anyway. But to answer your question, being that we were known before our birth, i have no doubt that we had personalities and wills also, and that we are embodied in the life situation that will provide the most spiritual growth to that soul whose name we do not even know right now; and so is it "fair" to plant an apple in one soil, and a pomegranate in another?

For surely God has no other desire, it being His Will and all, that all might come to glory. Predestination is not some sinister agenda; God does not personally interfere in anyone's free will. And we do not know that Pharaoh was condemned in the end, even if every Christian you ever ask says any different. i'm guessing he was pretty humbled. This needing a bad guy, a scapegoat, is a bad thing.

 

[Mjh29]

would a child say that their parent operates fairly? My pov there is therefore irrelevant at best, beside the fact that there is much evidence that all are saved in the end anyway. But to answer your question, being that we were known before our birth, i have no doubt that we had personalities and wills also, and that we are embodied in the life situation that will provide the most spiritual growth to that soul whose name we do not even know right now; and so is it "fair" to plant an apple in one soil, and a pomegranate in another?

For surely God has no other desire, it being His Will and all, that all might come to glory. Predestination is not some sinister agenda; God does not personally interfere in anyone's free will. And we do not know that Pharaoh was condemned in the end, even if every Christian you ever ask says any different. i'm guessing he was pretty humbled.

If your view of fair is irrelevent, how do you know the difference between what is and isnt fair? Isnt that the main emphasis in your refutation of the elect? That God choosing some and not others is not fair?

 

[bbyrd009]

If your view of fair is irrelevent, how do you know the difference between what is and isnt fair? Isnt that the main emphasis in your refutation of the elect? That God choosing some and not others is not fair?

you characterize this as refuting the elect, when i am merely pointing out that nobody is qualified to discern who they are.

Obviously i am not in a position to be deciding what God has done is fair or not, at least it seems to me. If God is Love, then fair is, also, still moot, because "fair" is a value judgement, imo basically the same value judgement one is invited to make with the doctrine of Original Sin. You have just possibly traced it back to its source, our attempt to answer the question "is God fair?"

which Job answers in his confession. Yes. God is fair.

 

[Mjh29]

you characterize this as refuting the elect, when i am merely pointing out that nobody is qualified to discern who they are.

You say your a christian because you chose to be a christian.... you discerned that you were a christian.

 

[bbyrd009]

You say your a christian because you chose to be a christian.... you discerned that you were a christian.

i actually no longer identify as a Christian, strictly speaking, but i would argue that saying i am one and choosing to be one, and even discerning that i am one, would not necessarily make me one anyway. And, anyone telling me they are one in a certain tone that denotes superiority i am immediately suspicious of. I know right away that our definitions of "Christian" are not the same.

 

[Mjh29]

i actually no longer identify as a Christian, strictly speaking, but i would argue that saying i am one and choosing to be one, and even discerning that i am one, would not necessarily make me one anyway.

Then whats the point? How can one truly know? Kinda looses the whole 'hope' aspect of the gospel, doesnt it? I know because God chose me and Jesus paid for me.... and thats all I need to know. That is sufficient for me.There's a song like that isnt there? I think it goes something like....
"Jesus paid it all
All to Him I owe
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed me white as snow"
[Notice I dont wash myself white as snow btw]

 

[ScottA]

Free will is greatly misunderstood. The term assumes that life is a journey, that we have time to change our course. But it's nothing like that. Life in the world is a manifestation, not of what will be, but of what "is." We are not journeying, but orating from a book that is already written. God is the author...so of course He knows the end. And so it is just us who have not yet read our lines, who are last to know what is already known.

 

[Abiding Grace]

Then whats the point? How can one truly know? Kinda looses the whole 'hope' aspect of the gospel, doesnt it? I know because God chose me and Jesus paid for me.... and thats all I need to know. That is sufficient for me.There's a song like that isnt there? I think it goes something like....
"Jesus paid it all
All to Him I owe
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed me white as snow"
[Notice I dont wash myself white as snow btw]

Amen and amen.

The Golden Chain of Redemption

Romans 8:28-30


28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

[Mjh29]

Amen and amen.

The Golden Chain of Redemption

Romans 8:28-30


28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Truer words were never spoken!!!
It seems at times that we dont realize calling God All-Powerful..... means He has ALL POWER!

 

[bbyrd009]

Then whats the point? How can one truly know?

2He who says he knows does not yet know as he ought

Kinda looses the whole 'hope' aspect of the gospel, doesnt it?

actually, it brings it to life. i can only hope to manifest the kingdom in the now, and while i might hope to also get better at it, there are still buttons to push, still tests that i likely would not pass. The amount of growth depends upon me, and how or whether i choose to pick up my cross and follow

I know because God chose me and Jesus paid for me.... and thats all I need to know.

yes and a million plus left Egypt, laden with plunder, through the door of blood, too; but only two of them made it to the Promised Land. Mmmkay.

You will be judged for your works, unequivocally, and don't let anyone kid you. 7Do not be deceived, little children. It is those who do right that are right.

There's a song like that isnt there? I think it goes something like....
"Jesus paid it all
All to Him I owe
Sin had left a crimson stain
He washed me white as snow"
[Notice I dont wash myself white as snow btw]

yes, well with all due respect there are some conditions for that that i do not believe are considered when leading a new convert through their salvation checklist lol. I don't mean to be critical, and singing about it is cool i guess, but you cannot serve God in a church, as shocking as i'm sure you find that statement.

Not that there is no value in gathering by any means, ok, just that people say lots of things, make all kinds of declarations, 13and plans, you know, on so and so date we will go to such and such place, like that. While we're waiting on Jesus, i guess.

btw are you waiting on Jesus for anything? Some perhaps cataclysmic single event tied to prophecy, like that? Rapture or Armageddon or whatever?

 

[Mjh29]

2He who says he knows does not yet know as he ought
actually, it brings it to life. i can only hope to manifest the kingdom in the now, and while i might hope to also get better at it, there are still buttons to push, still tests that i likely would not pass. The amount of growth depends upon me, and how or whether i choose to pick up my cross and follow
yes and a million plus left Egypt, laden with plunder, through the door of blood, too; but only two of them made it to the Promised Land. Mmmkay.

You will be judged for your works, unequivocally, and don't let anyone kid you. 7Do not be deceived, little children. It is those who do right that are right.
yes, well with all due respect there are some conditions for that that i do not believe are considered when leading a new convert through their salvation checklist lol. I don't mean to be critical, and singing about it is cool i guess, but you cannot serve God in a church, as shocking as i'm sure you find that statement.

Not that there is no value in gathering by any means, ok, just that people say lots of things, make all kinds of declarations, 13and plans, you know, on so and so date we will go to such and such place, like that.

Hmmm. Wow..... and here I thought GOD was ALL powerful but.... no.... that cant be right because apparently salvation is under your power..... but then what did Jesus say again? Oh right....
Matt. 28:18
"18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven and in earth"

 

[bbyrd009]

oh snap lol, or is this where we got on...

 

[bbyrd009]

Hmmm. Wow..... and here I thought GOD was ALL powerful but.... no.... that cant be right because apparently salvation is under your power..... but then what did Jesus say again? Oh right....
Matt. 28:18
"18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven and in earth"

yes, but that does not account for volition. "Pick up your cross" implies a free will voluntary action, and we know that it is a thing that must be practiced, and is not embodied in rituals. I'm sure you would even agree.

Further, the attempt to discredit free will by misinterpreting predestination is discussed by Paul, in his "what i will is not what i would do" speech. All things are allowed, but does that mean that i should now sin, that God be glorified? Of course not.

This is essentially restating that one cannot rely on some declaration of faith to save them, without being cognizant of the consequences of their actions. Faith is manifest, and not just possessed as we understand that. "I have lots of faith" is a null statement without works, as is assuming "i am one of God's chosen."

Yes, predestination exists, but it is a dangerous place to be assuming that you are saved, right now, irrevocably, when Scripture says that he who holds out to the end will be saved. Really nothing short of blasphemy of a sort. And commending others is even worse.

Predestination as we manifest it ends up the whore on the back of the doctrine of Original Sin used to subjugate souls imo, and of course if Jesus' blood is sufficient then you dont really need no free will anyway right. After all what is free will any good for if it only hinders salvation? So prolly we don't even have any free will, see, don't you feel better already.

 

[Mjh29]

[Metaphorical heart stops]
Announcer: Ladies and gentlemen... we have AGREEMENT! ;) jk
Of course! You must shew forth Jesus light, and in thanksgiving do good works in His name! Works are a big part of the Christians life, however even the best works do not save.

But dear friend i am not assuming i am saved.... Jesus told me himself.
John 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

 

[Mjh29]

Further, the attempt to discredit free will by misinterpreting predestination is discussed by Paul, in his "what i will is not what i would do" speech. All things are allowed, but does that mean that i should now sin, that God be glorified? Of course not.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This passage is a prime example of the bondage of the will to sin. Paul here is not expressing a free-will, but a will that is enslaved to sin, causing him to do carnal, sinful things rather that following Christ. He is depicting His battle with sin in his life, miniscule as it may be.

 

[bbyrd009]

yes, yes i'm sure the devil made him do it, and gee he just had no input in the matters at all lol. Of course it is his free will that has allowed him to even contemplate sinning or not sinning, and the "bondage" is of course strictly a prison of the mind, which is incidentally what we are called to change; our minds.

Paul is not complaining about having no free will; he is instructing us to change our minds, and stop sinning. Otherwise the instructions to overcome sin, and to be perfect as I am perfect, etc, make no sense, as they cannot be accomplished.

 

[Mjh29]

yes, yes i'm sure the devil made him do it, and gee he just had no input in the matters at all lol. Of course it is his free will that has allowed him to even contemplate sinning or not sinning, and the "bondage" is of course strictly a prison of the mind, which is incidentally what we are called to change; our minds.

And yet in the Psalms the HEART is decietful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it?
No the devil didnt make him do it.... his fallen will sure helped though. Now, dont misunderstand, the will is not COMPLETELY bad. Bad sinful people can still do good.... when measured up to man's standards. But when measured up to GOD'S standards, even our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.

 

[bbyrd009]

And yet in the Psalms the HEART is decietful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it?

yes, but that heart is not the actual blood-pumping organ, of course, but merely an aspect of the mind, so now we are having a semantics discussion.

even our righteousnesses are like filthy rags.

nonetheless it is those who do right that are considered righteous by God, so i suggest that this "righteousness as filthy rags" thing is misinterpreted also, into a doctrine that supports "i have no role to play in manifesting the kingdom, and i am just waiting here for Jesus to come back--even though i am the body of Christ, so wait...--and save me--even though i claim to be saved already, so wait..." lol

imo this is why Christ's return is posited as a thief in the night and not a robber, in your face in realtime; one does not realize what they have lost until it is too late.

 

[Mjh29]

yes, but that heart is not the actual blood-pumping organ, of course, but merely an aspect of the mind, so now we are having a semantics discussion.
nonetheless it is those who do right that are considered righteous by God, so i suggest that this "righteousness as filthy rags" thing is misinterpreted also, into a doctrine that supports "i have no role to play in manifesting the kingdom, and i am just waiting here for Jesus to come back--even though i am the body of Christ, so wait...--and save me--even though i claim to be saved already, so wait...lol

On the contrary, I would..... [heart palpation ;)] AGREE! I do not think Christians should stand idly by and simply, "wait for Jesus return. While here on earth, we have a job to do!
So heart....mind.... if we equate them, we have what the original writers were refering to as the very CORE of your being. What really drives you.

 

[bbyrd009]

On the contrary, I would..... [heart palpation ;)] AGREE! I do not think Christians should stand idly by and simply, "wait for Jesus return. While here on earth, we have a job to do!
So heart....mind.... if we equate them, we have what the original writers were refering to as the very CORE of your being. What really drives you.

well, there is a third, a rope of three cords and all that, i guess our guts have some role to play that i am not quite clear about, yet still am able to dimly perceive; how can one's mind and heart be in agreement, and their gut be disagreeing? But i guess it's possible lol