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Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by aspen, Sep 13, 2019.

  1. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you're saying, but I use the term "cult" conservatively, just so you know.

    For example, I don't apply the term to every church that doesn't totally agree with my beliefs. If I did this, I would consider every denomination a cult in some way. I use the term to mean groups that veer from fundamental Christian doctrines found in the Bible that most denominations (at least, Protestant denominations) agree on. I say Protestant because I'm most familiar with Protestant doctrines.

    I've attended churches of many different denominations, so I realize that there are disagreements about doctrine between the denominations, but I see these disagreements as a matter of stressing one Bible doctrine over another (like free will or predestination). Both doctrines clearly exist in the Bible.

    Generally, cults go outside the Bible to form their doctrines (at least some of their doctrines). Or a cult will rewrite portions of the Bible to support their unbiblical beliefs. Often, they have other books that they see as equal to Bible authority or even above the Bible in authority.
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  2. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    This quote:
    Implies that there are multiple versions of Jesus created by different person's views of Him. That's simply not accurate. A person having an inaccurate understanding of Christ means that they have an inaccurate understanding of the one Christ. It doesn't mean there's two (or many more) Christ's walking around.
     
  3. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    So, are we all a cultists . The word cult is near to erroneous. Before you picked up your first Bible...the Word of God had been altered 35,000 times with alterations, additions, and some call deceptions. It takes a deep study to just understand the Bible, and an open mind to understand Christianity. I try to make people think, but I think it hurts their brains!
     
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  4. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    I would encourage you to ditch ALL labeling and instead get to know people individually, as Christ does. And remember that He alone is the Judge.
     
  5. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Let's do that! How about starting with the label "fundamentalist"? Maybe you can pass this suggestion on to Grailhunter.
     
  6. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    You know, Grailhunter, you can be so openminded that your brains leak out. ;)
     
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  7. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Ya lets do
    Ya lets do...
    Some examples of fundamentalism are; Fascism, Nazism, Socialism, Communism, Marxism, Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Fundamentalism is not limited to a theistic belief, but references any form of belief that mandates a strict obedience to a particular set of beliefs.

    I don't like this definition.

    Noun. an adherent of fundamentalism, a religious movement characterized by a strict belief in the literal interpretation of religious texts: Bible.

    I like this one better...not a derogatory term...and it applies to several denominations.
     
  8. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Not derogatory?? LOL! I must have misunderstand your numerous attempts to convince me to abandon my "fundamentalist" beliefs.

    I am a Christian who sticks with the Bible. That's how you can see me as as individual, as JD has pointed out is so important.

    It's not that I never read anything but the Bible, but I compare everything I read and hear with the Bible, much like the Bereans. This is because I believed a lot of lies until I was saved in college. These lies wrecked my life. So, when I gave my life to Jesus Christ, I determined that I wasn't going to believe anything that didn't square with His word.

    Now, I understand that you've read a lot of things that don't square with God's word, and you've adopted a lot of beliefs that aren't supported by the Bible. This is your prerogative to do this, but I don't recommend it because any unbiblical beliefs that you adopt can really mess you up. (Just talking experience here.)

    One more thing about fundamentalism, anti-fundamentalism can be a fundamentalist stance. ;)
    .
     
  9. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Have you seen me use that label on you?
    If so, I will readily apologize. I strive practice what I preach: to avoid labels, and get to know people individually.
     
  10. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    No, not at all, Jane. This part of my comment was aimed at your good friend Grailhunter.

    But you have used derogatory labels for other people, like "ax-grinder."
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  11. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Do you look at people with labels?

    Am I still just an "cultist Mormon" in your eyes?
     
  12. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Why don't we talk about your tendency to label people first? Then we can talk about mine.
     
  13. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    I have not labeled you at all, I acknowledge you as a disciple of Christ, listen to your stories, strive to be accurate in my understanding of you. I celebrate with you on many things about Him and His words (such as the awesomeness that is the book of Matthew). I do disagree with you on some doctrinal points, but still strive to treat you respectfully. If at any point I do not, as I just said, let me know and I will readily apologize.

    Your turn now.
     
  14. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    And I have treated you respectfully. Wouldn't you agree?

    However, I think that you're still after to me to say that you're a Christian. As I told you before, this is not my call. I have never said that you're not a Christian. I believe there are Mormons who are saved, but misguided. Whether you have a saving relationship with Jesus Christ or not, I don't know. I literally hope and pray that you do!
    .
     
  15. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Not derogatory?? LOL! I must have misunderstand your numerous attempts to convince me to abandon my "fundamentalist" beliefs.

    Not derogatory because many Protestants consider themselves as fundamentalists. Not derogatory because fundamentalism has saved millions and millions, and that is what is important. History does not save anybody. Belief saves. I say stay with fundamentalism, if that is what you choose. But religions that have beliefs outside the Bible like, the Mormons, the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox....and all the other dox's...they do not represent your beliefs and it is not disrespectful for you to say you do not believe like they do. The issue is when you start condemning....finding information to condemn....questioning to condemn. And it is not just you. Whether it is here or the Mormon thread..words like cult, Satan, satanism, false beliefs, lies....etc...that is not right. It is enough to say you do not believe as they do. And as I pointed out before...you have enough to debate and criticize within fundamentalism. I have defended the belief of the ministry of the Holy Spirit with fundamentalists. Beliefs regarding Baptism and Communion. Of course the correctness in the process of Salvation and its permanency.

    As far as me reading things....I consider many things....but I am firm on the belief that people have the right to their beliefs and I can fellowship with so many and not totally agree with their beliefs.

    but I don't recommend it because any unbiblical beliefs that you adopt can really mess you up. (Just talking experience here.

    And this is the point...fundamentalism is a focus on the Bible, and that is not wrong! How can you go wrong? The problem is when you think that unbiblical mean ungodly or false. When you stay in the Bible, that last word was written 2000 years ago, but Christianity continued on for 2000 years and God's interaction with humanity continued. Most of that is not for a fundamentalists, because when you step out and look at the history of Christian events, you are going to judge all those divine events, based on the Bible, if you judge the divine events as different than the scriptures, you can end up judging God. It is above your pay grade and mine. It is best for a fundamentalists to stay in the Bible, because they believe nothing can change or be different and if God does something different, He is in trouble with you. So no, stay with fundamentalism, just stop the judging and condemning thing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  16. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree.
    Rather, I've felt treated like an object, ignored, and de-humanized. Like all you've labeled me as "un-saved cultist Mormon" and can't look past that.
    Do you likewise refuse to acknowledge people that share a literal pew with you as "I can't say you're a Christian" but readily apply labels like "cult"?
    Do you think I'm sinning when I acknowledge you as a disciple of Christ?

    I don't think so.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  17. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Paragraphs, Grailhunter, paragraphs!!! :)

    I said "not derogatory?" because of your little list of "fundamentalists"--Nazis, Fascists.... :rolleyes:

    No, not really. The act of believing never saved a single soul. It's the object of our belief that save us! WHAT we believe counts, and this is where the Bible comes into play.

    Wow! That's quite a list too. I don't consider Catholicism and Orthodox-ism cults. Yes, I have some big disagreements with some of their beliefs, but that's for a different thread. I clearly explained how I define a cult. I'm standing by my definition. In your liberalism, you're making some false assumptions about my conservative beliefs.

    Questioning to condemn??? That's your judgment (or condemnation) of me! How do you know my motives as to why I ask the questions I do?? You know, I get the feeling that you think calling a lie "a lie" is wrong. Or how about calling a hypocrite "a hypocrite"? In your view would it be wrong to do this? How about this? If I told you a big fat lie, what would you call it???

    All of these charges that you throw at me apply to you even more. In your acceptance of so many different (and conflicting) beliefs, I have not been accepted by you for believing as I do. I get the feeling that you think you have to change me. And so it goes....
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  18. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    It has not been my intent to ignore you. I don't tend to do that to people. However, I don't always know what to say or have anything to say, so I don't say anything. This applies to everyone on this forum.

    I do believe that you were bullying me in the other thread to answer your question. It just may be that I didn't know what to say....

    There is no simple answer to what you're asking me here. There are Christians I know who I truly believe are born again because I know them well. I have seen the fruit of believing in Jesus Christ in there lives over a period of time.

    Knowing about the "Mormon gospel," which is different from the gospel presented in the Bible, makes me wonder if you are born again. As I said to Grailhunter, what we believe counts. BUT I would not say that I KNOW you are not saved. That's not my call. And I would not say of anyone that I KNOW they will end up in heaven. Only God knows that for sure.

    This answer probably doesn't satisfy you, but it's the best answer I can give you. And an honest one--one person to another.
    .
     
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  19. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Examine me the same way then.
    Just as you would any other individual. Look beyond labels and what you "know" beforehand, and instead thoroughly examine and see.
     
  20. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Hey I had paragraphs. And this first list was there to show how the sources can get it weird.

    I disagree on the belief thing...belief has saved millions and none belief saves no one.

    In your liberalism, you're making some false assumptions about my conservative beliefs.

    This one is funny! Liberal!!! If you only knew me...but conservative can apply to any belief.

    Questioning to condemn??? That's your judgment (or condemnation) of me!

    It would do you no good to condemn me...I am talking about Jane...and yes I saw it...but the person to ask is Jane.

    I get the feeling that you think calling a lie "a lie" is wrong. Or how about calling a hypocrite "a hypocrite"? In your view would it be wrong to do this? How about this? If I told you a big fat lie, what would you call it???

    Truth and lies are from a perspective. One person sees a white dove in the sunlight and another sees a strobbing light. One person believes that salvation is through a process and another believe it is by faith. The world is full of beliefs and understandings.

    All of these charges that you throw at me apply to you even more. In your acceptance of so many different (and conflicting) beliefs, I have not been accepted by you for believing as I do. I get the feeling that you think you have to change me. And so it goes....

    I believe that you and I would have some differences, but most of those we maybe able to come to terms with. It is what you take away from your religion that would concern me more. What is the spirit of your religion...are we seeing it here. Is that condemnation? If I did not care for you....I would not waste my time....because I am not out to prove my beliefs or challenge others on the details of their's
     
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