freewill? na

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DPMartin

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Nor the meaning of love.

what is the meaning of love in your judgement? and what is Love as the Lord God who wiped out all flesh that took air in Noah's day, is Love? surly you understand the Lord God is faithful to the faithful, and those He knows will be faithful.
 

Eternally Grateful

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You can not have a relationship without free will.

A true relationship takes two people.

The bible says God is love. And he created us to love as he loves.

You can not truly love a person unless you give them the freedom to receive your love or reject your love.

We see this in creation. God gave man everything he needed, He also gave him the ability to receive that love or to reject it. In the tree.

After adam and Eve sinned, He still gave them the ability. by coming to them (he could have just snapped his fingers and did a do over with two different people) But he chose to draw near to them, and offer them the gift of life. Ever since that time, He has done the same to all people. And all of this love is based on what God planned from the begining. The cross.

For God so loved the WORLD....

You can not have a relationship without freedom. Just ask anyone who has been under a dictatorial relationship (be it country, Parents/Husband or wife etc etc) and ask if any of them feel loved by their dictator, and how much they wish to please their dictator out of love. and not out of fear.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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you didn't chose to be born into condemnation, a state of sin when you came into the world, and your not the one who choses to deliver you from that or not. most walk through their whole lives not realizing they need saved from something. why? could it be they don't know and how could they know unless God reveal the Truth to them.
God did reveal the truth. That why paul says in romans 1. they have no excuse.

As paul also said in same chapter. THEY hid the truth, and exchanged it for a lie
 

Eternally Grateful

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what is the meaning of love in your judgement? and what is Love as the Lord God who wiped out all flesh that took air in Noah's day, is Love? surly you understand the Lord God is faithful to the faithful, and those He knows will be faithful.
God has a perspective we do not have.

God knows if they will change or repent. So he has the ability to judge, even the judgment of the flood.

We do not have that ability, nor should we try to judge Gods motive.
 

Brakelite

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what is the meaning of love in your judgement? and what is Love as the Lord God who wiped out all flesh that took air in Noah's day, is Love? surly you understand the Lord God is faithful to the faithful, and those He knows will be faithful.
Noah was a preacher of righteousness... You think that Noah, filled with the spirit of Christ,
(KJV 1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.)
Did preach for 120 years to a people whom God deliberately withheld the opportunity to get on board that ark and be saved?
That's love. Giving everybody the opportunity to repent. Never withholding vital information... Never executing judgement without a warning.
KJV Matthew 23:37
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
 
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Ziggy

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you didn't chose to be born into condemnation
How do you know that?

Did Jesus choose to leave heaven and become a man to save the world?
How do you know that we aren't also sent and willing to be subjected to death for Christ's sake.
Most walk through life not knowing where they came from to begin with.
Is it possible that there are some who choose not to come and die to save their neighbors?

Mat 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

We don't really have all the answers do we?

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Eternally Grateful

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Noah was a preacher of righteousness... You think that Noah, filled with the spirit of Christ,
(KJV 1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.)
Did preach for 120 years to a people whom God deliberately withheld the opportunity to get on board that ark and be saved?
That's love. Giving everybody the opportunity to repent. Never withholding vital information... Never executing judgement without a warning.
KJV Matthew 23:37
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
120 years of grace. And THEY said no.

God did not force them to say no. or keep the truth from them, He put it in front of them. so they had no excuse. God's Longsuffering in this case is no question about freedom to chose.
 
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Ziggy

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2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;


a lot of people don't put stock in the book of Enoch, but there is a part that speaks of the fallen angels asking Enoch to petition the Lord for them to be set free. The Lord tells Enoch to tell the Angels, that it is them who should be praying for man and not the other way around.
And God says no. Your going to stay right there.

Jump to the NT and many believe that Jesus went to hell itself and preached to the angels that were there.
Perhaps some repented and perhaps some did not.
Some rose from the graves and others are still rotting in hell.

If this is the case... and maybe it's not, I don't know.
But if it is, could it be that even the Angels that left their first estate .. some of them.. repented and returned to God.
And if so.. would this be a choice?

Did the snake in the garden have a choice to deceive Eve or was it inevitable?

So many questions..

Hugs
 

Curtis

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Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

also one doesn't acknowledge what they don't know, such as atheists and those who don't know the living God but may have heard of God. and they don't know or acknowledge because they never have experienced or its never been revealed to them personally. and no one makes God reveal Himself or make Himself known to some one.

and one should understand those that do not have the Light revealed to them remain in the darkness they were born into. which is the case with all men Jews and gentile, unless the Lord do otherwise.

men can hear the truth until the cows come home, and they will still be in the dark, unless the Lord God reveal the Truth of Himself to them which is God's choice to do. many are called, few are chosen. no one invites themselves into heaven.

you many be able to chose apples and oranges but in the case of the Lord God, He choses, its His creation to do so. He chose the Israelites for a certain purpose. mainly to bring Christ into the world of which He did, but the Lord God isn't stupid He knows man's nature and what to expect of it, and you can bet He didn't expect Jesus to be received since it was Jesus' mission to die on the cross in the first place.

paul explains further:

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


and what of Israel why only Israel experiences the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob in those days? Abraham walked with God why not anyone else out of the millions of people in those days?


also the circumstances to be in need of deliverance isn't a choice, its only the deliverer's choice to deliver some one or not.

also this is not about Calvinist theology, that's something else. you want to debate Calvinism start another thread.
John 1:13 doesn’t mean what Calvinists interpret it as saying.

Good thing, since the scriptures I posted so clearly prove that the elect nation of Israel resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected their very own savior sent to them, completely falsifying Calvinism, and it would be a serious contradiction if your interpretation of verse 13 was accurate.

The proof text you’re using, doesn’t say God selects which individuals are saved, it means that the plan of salvation is Gods will, not mans will. We didn’t decide for God to send Jesus as our savior - God did.

A# to your Romans 9 proof texts, that passage is the best example of wrong interpretation of a text that exists.

Here is refutation of the Calvinist claims about the potter and the clay, and about vessels of wrath fitted for destruction:


Jeremiah 18 is the potter and clay chapter, which is actually the scriptures that Paul is referring to in Romans 9.


It refutes the Calvinist Romans 9 narrative, completely.


The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is about NATIONS not individuals - and Israel is the nation on the potters wheel, as will be proven.


As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)

The nation of Edom would serve the nation of Israel.


And Israel, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not any person..


The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.


No nation is predestined to destruction, nor are any individual persons - Romans 9 has nothing to do with predestination of Esau to hell and Jacob to salvation at all, thus no individuals are predestined to destruction in that passage.


Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


This is the opposite of the reformed doctrine predestination narrative. The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.


God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.


That God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil) absolutely wrecks reformed dogma regarding God being immutable and arbitrary predestination of individuals to hell or to heaven.

Yes, Jeremiah 18 blows up Calvinist proof texting of predestination and election of Jacob and Esau, or any individual persons to heaven or hell in Romans 9.
 

DPMartin

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Ah, the free will argument again. The early church writers put this to rest when they refuted the Gnostics.

at the second council of orange 529ad The question at hand was whether a moderate form of Pelagianism could be affirmed, or if the doctrines of Augustine were to be affirmed. The determination of the Council could be considered "semi-Augustinian".It defined that faith, though a free act of man, resulted, even in its beginnings, from the grace of God, enlightening the human mind and enabling belief

note still an act of God, not man.


and the council of Trent 1546ad condemned Pelagianism which is a heterodox Christian theological position that holds that the original sin did not taint human nature and that humans have the free will to achieve human perfection without divine grace.

and condemned the idea it was God's will that men be or do evil (rejecting Calvinism) which would be correct of course but this councils motives are to be taken with a grain salt considering they and the protestants' were at each others throats. and demonizing anything protestant could be the reason for the meeting in the first place. because in the case of God's will man became evil is its always God's will that His Word be fulfilled according to Him of course therefore one could argue that it was His will. but what is obvious is what Life God gave A&E and what He required of it. therefore what was His will should He not get what He requires?


but the church insists that its God's grace that man believe and have faith. hence one must have favor of God to believe.

therefore God choice.
 
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DPMartin

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John 1:13 doesn’t mean what Calvinists interpret it as saying.

Good thing, since the scriptures I posted so clearly prove that the elect nation of Israel resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected their very own savior sent to them, completely falsifying Calvinism, and it would be a serious contradiction if your interpretation of verse 13 was accurate.

The proof text you’re using, doesn’t say God selects which individuals are saved, it means that the plan of salvation is Gods will, not mans will. We didn’t decide for God to send Jesus as our savior - God did.

again, you're arguing against Calvinism, this isn't about Calvinism, HELLO

Israel was chosen through God's choice of Abraham (who was tenth from Noah who was the tenth from Adam) Isaac and Jacob to exactly what they are experiencing today and all the way back to Abraham, the bible shows that. its and undisputable fact, read the contract also known as the Torah which is the covenant which is a agreement between the Lord God and the children of Israel that God had them agree to in the dessert. your assumption they were chosen to receive salvation of the soul because they are children of Israel is way off base, they were chosen to be what they were when Jesus came and what they will be when Jesus returns.
 

DPMartin

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Noah was a preacher of righteousness... You think that Noah, filled with the spirit of Christ,
(KJV 1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.)
Did preach for 120 years to a people whom God deliberately withheld the opportunity to get on board that ark and be saved?
That's love. Giving everybody the opportunity to repent. Never withholding vital information... Never executing judgement without a warning.
KJV Matthew 23:37
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


what's that tell ya, God was faithful to the faithful, how many did Noah find? so what happened to the rest? that's what's going on now the finding of the faithful. the rest not so much. and if you don't think God knows who they are before He saves them, you don't know God.

end of story
 

Butch5

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at the second council of orange 529ad The question at hand was whether a moderate form of Pelagianism could be affirmed, or if the doctrines of Augustine were to be affirmed. The determination of the Council could be considered "semi-Augustinian".It defined that faith, though a free act of man, resulted, even in its beginnings, from the grace of God, enlightening the human mind and enabling belief

note still an act of God, not man.


and the council of Trent 1546ad condemned Pelagianism which is a heterodox Christian theological position that holds that the original sin did not taint human nature and that humans have the free will to achieve human perfection without divine grace.

and condemned the idea it was God's will that men be or do evil (rejecting Calvinism) which would be correct of course but this councils motives are to be taken with a grain salt considering they and the protestants' were at each others throats. and demonizing anything protestant could be the reason for the meeting in the first place. because in the case of God's will man became evil is its always God's will that His Word be fulfilled according to Him of course therefore one could argue that it was His will. but what is obvious is what Life God gave A&E and what He required of it. therefore what was His will should He not get what He requires?


but the church insists that its God's grace that man believe and have faith. hence one must have favor of God to believe.

therefore God choice.
Augustine had quite a bit wrong with his theology. His previous Manichean beliefs seemed to influence his understanding of Christianity. The Early Christians argued against this idea of Fatalism, that all things are fated. Here is a excerpt from Justin Martyr from around 160 AD.

Justin Martyr, Second Apology, Chapter 7

Chapter 7. — The world preserved for the sake of Christians. Man’s responsibility.
Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature. Since, if it were not so, it would not have been possible for you to do these things, and to be impelled by evil spirits; but the fire of judgment would descend and utterly dissolve all things, even as formerly the flood left no one but him only with his family who is by us called Noah, and by you Deucalion, from whom again such vast numbers have sprung, some of them evil and others good. For so we say that there will be the conflagration, but not as the Stoics, according to their doctrine of all things being changed into one another, which seems most degrading. But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suffer persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both [virtue and vice]. And this also is shown by those men everywhere who have made laws and philosophized according to right reason, by their prescribing to do some things and refrain from others. Even the Stoic philosophers, in their doctrine of morals, steadily honour the same things, so that it is evident that they are not very felicitous in what they say about principles and incorporeal things. For if they say that human actions come to pass by fate, they will maintain either that God is nothing else than the things which are ever turning, and altering, and dissolving into the same things, and will appear to have had a comprehension only of things that are destructible, and to have looked on God Himself as emerging both in part and in whole in every wickedness; or that neither vice nor virtue is anything; which is contrary to every sound idea, reason, and sense.

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

I added the bolding. There are statements like this all through their writings. It was the Gnostics who taught that all things were fated.
 

DPMartin

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Augustine had quite a bit wrong with his theology. His previous Manichean beliefs seemed to influence his understanding of Christianity. The Early Christians argued against this idea of Fatalism, that all things are fated. Here is a excerpt from Justin Martyr from around 160 AD.

Justin Martyr, Second Apology, Chapter 7

Chapter 7. — The world preserved for the sake of Christians. Man’s responsibility.
Wherefore God delays causing the confusion and destruction of the whole world, by which the wicked angels and demons and men shall cease to exist, because of the seed of the Christians, who know that they are the cause of preservation in nature. Since, if it were not so, it would not have been possible for you to do these things, and to be impelled by evil spirits; but the fire of judgment would descend and utterly dissolve all things, even as formerly the flood left no one but him only with his family who is by us called Noah, and by you Deucalion, from whom again such vast numbers have sprung, some of them evil and others good. For so we say that there will be the conflagration, but not as the Stoics, according to their doctrine of all things being changed into one another, which seems most degrading. But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suffer persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both [virtue and vice]. And this also is shown by those men everywhere who have made laws and philosophized according to right reason, by their prescribing to do some things and refrain from others. Even the Stoic philosophers, in their doctrine of morals, steadily honour the same things, so that it is evident that they are not very felicitous in what they say about principles and incorporeal things. For if they say that human actions come to pass by fate, they will maintain either that God is nothing else than the things which are ever turning, and altering, and dissolving into the same things, and will appear to have had a comprehension only of things that are destructible, and to have looked on God Himself as emerging both in part and in whole in every wickedness; or that neither vice nor virtue is anything; which is contrary to every sound idea, reason, and sense.

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

I added the bolding. There are statements like this all through their writings. It was the Gnostics who taught that all things were fated.


but this is not the subject at hand:

the matter is about whether or not one chooses God, or God chooses the person saved. an animal can have choice of anything with in its reach, this means nothing, there's no moral imperative unless in man's case, he agrees with another to do, other that what he intends to do.

being flesh one has the nature of flesh by default, what makes something wrong is to agree to not take your share and then take it, where as an animal has no such agreement.

the question is, does God chose or do individuals chose in the case of salvation. one must understand grace is favor and no one makes God show favor to no one.

Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

also
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

which comes to
1Jn_4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.


all of this theology converted from philosophy about the human condition, isn't the case in what the Lord is doing. a discussion on how it is, is interesting going back to A&E so on and so forth but that might make a good thread.
 

Butch5

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but this is not the subject at hand:

the matter is about whether or not one chooses God, or God chooses the person saved. an animal can have choice of anything with in its reach, this means nothing, there's no moral imperative unless in man's case, he agrees with another to do, other that what he intends to do.

being flesh one has the nature of flesh by default, what makes something wrong is to agree to not take your share and then take it, where as an animal has no such agreement.

the question is, does God chose or do individuals chose in the case of salvation. one must understand grace is favor and no one makes God show favor to no one.

Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

also
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

which comes to
1Jn_4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.


all of this theology converted from philosophy about the human condition, isn't the case in what the Lord is doing. a discussion on how it is, is interesting going back to A&E so on and so forth but that might make a good thread.

What is your argument here? The passages in Exodus refer to Israel and say nothing of salvation. Likewise 1 John 4:19 says nothing of salvation. So how have you established that God chooses who will be saved?

Of course the first effort is on God's part. The very life of a person comes from God. Without the breath of life there would be no salvation at all. Likewise John tells us that all can be saved, and qualifies it with a statement that God gives understanding to ever person. So, he qualifies the "all" with the singular.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Jn. 1:6-9 KJV)

So there's no person alive that doesn't have some level of understanding from God. So, yes, the first effort is from God. But that's for both the saved and unsaved.
 

Butch5

Butch5
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but this is not the subject at hand:

the matter is about whether or not one chooses God, or God chooses the person saved. an animal can have choice of anything with in its reach, this means nothing, there's no moral imperative unless in man's case, he agrees with another to do, other that what he intends to do.

being flesh one has the nature of flesh by default, what makes something wrong is to agree to not take your share and then take it, where as an animal has no such agreement.

the question is, does God chose or do individuals chose in the case of salvation. one must understand grace is favor and no one makes God show favor to no one.

Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

also
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

which comes to
1Jn_4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.


all of this theology converted from philosophy about the human condition, isn't the case in what the Lord is doing. a discussion on how it is, is interesting going back to A&E so on and so forth but that might make a good thread.

Did you read my signature? It too is from Justin Marty.

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe;

Justin Martyr
 

DPMartin

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What is your argument here? The passages in Exodus refer to Israel and say nothing of salvation. Likewise 1 John 4:19 says nothing of salvation. So how have you established that God chooses who will be saved?

Of course the first effort is on God's part. The very life of a person comes from God. Without the breath of life there would be no salvation at all. Likewise John tells us that all can be saved, and qualifies it with a statement that God gives understanding to ever person. So, he qualifies the "all" with the singular.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Jn. 1:6-9 KJV)

So there's no person alive that doesn't have some level of understanding from God. So, yes, the first effort is from God. But that's for both the saved and unsaved.

FYI writings from Justin martyr may be good for insight of some sort but not suitable documentation for proof or test of anything in right Christian doctrine. the documents known as the bible have been grieved over for thousands of years especially the OT they are the acceptable proofs for testing doctrine.

without going the distance its obvious that the Lord God does not walk with anyone not of His own choosing.

as far as using John the Baptist's statement, the sons of man have received the life Adam had, so the same Light Adam died from and was left with dust to dust, is the same Light all men need.
 

Butch5

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FYI writings from Justin martyr may be good for insight of some sort but not suitable documentation for proof or test of anything in right Christian doctrine. the documents known as the bible have been grieved over for thousands of years especially the OT they are the acceptable proofs for testing doctrine.

without going the distance its obvious that the Lord God does not walk with anyone not of His own choosing.

as far as using John the Baptist's statement, the sons of man have received the life Adam had, so the same Light Adam died from and was left with dust to dust, is the same Light all men need.

Looking at the early church shows us what was taught in the beginning. There are many statements about man having free will. It's interesting that you dismiss the early church but then claim church councils as proof of your claim. It seems you only accept that information that seems to fit what you believe. That's the fallacy of Cherry Picking.

The statement wasn't from John the Baptist. It was from John the apostle. He clearly states that all might believe and that everyone is given understanding by God. If all might be saved then either God chose all or he doesn't choose and there's another way. We know that Paul told the Jews that they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. So, according to Paul those Jews themselves were the reason they didnt receive eternal life. They could have, they chose not to.
 

DPMartin

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Looking at the early church shows us what was taught in the beginning. There are many statements about man having free will. It's interesting that you dismiss the early church but then claim church councils as proof of your claim. It seems you only accept that information that seems to fit what you believe. That's the fallacy of Cherry Picking.

The statement wasn't from John the Baptist. It was from John the apostle. He clearly states that all might believe and that everyone is given understanding by God. If all might be saved then either God chose all or he doesn't choose and there's another way. We know that Paul told the Jews that they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. So, according to Paul those Jews themselves were the reason they didnt receive eternal life. They could have, they chose not to.



i use scripture not church cancels, you brought that up didn't you? why isn't Justin martyr's writings included in the bible or cannon if you will? could it be insufficient?


yea you're right about John's about Light, wasn't thinking, but doesn't realy matter in this case.



also you're rephrasing this:
Joh_1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.


all men through Him might believe, also might is a big word here. also, it is through the Word of God that all creation knows it's Maker. so anything that would believe in the case of man has always been through God's Word. all covenants from A&E on are through and by God's Word. all things were made through God's Word. nothings changed. its through God's Word one is required to believe, even Adam and Eve, or Noah or Abraham.

again God's not stupid, and He doesn't expect us to be either. should God reveal Himself to all, they all would believe. but that's not that case is it? the scriptures show God makes the choice, through out.
 

Butch5

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i use scripture not church cancels, you brought that up didn't you? why isn't Justin martyr's writings included in the bible or cannon if you will? could it be insufficient?


yea you're right about John's about Light, wasn't thinking, but doesn't realy matter in this case.



also you're rephrasing this:
Joh_1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.


all men through Him might believe, also might is a big word here. also, it is through the Word of God that all creation knows it's Maker. so anything that would believe in the case of man has always been through God's Word. all covenants from A&E on are through and by God's Word. all things were made through God's Word. nothings changed. its through God's Word one is required to believe, even Adam and Eve, or Noah or Abraham.

again God's not stupid, and He doesn't expect us to be either. should God reveal Himself to all, they all would believe. but that's not that case is it? the scriptures show God makes the choice, through out.

Justin and others show us what was first taught as Christian doctrine. Free will was first taught as Christian doctrine. As I pointed out, it was the Gnostics who said all things were fated.

Yes, as I pointed out, it's all come from God. There would be no salvation apart from God. However, that doesn't mean that man doesn't have free will. God set a choice before Israel, life and death. He told them to choose life. I think you're making an assumption here too. You said if God revealed Himself to all, all would believe. He revealed Himself to the children in the wilderness...

The Scriptures make it pretty clear that man must choose to be saved.