From the pen of Ellen White

[Jack]

If they deny Jesus/God and or eternal Hell fire, a HUGE red flag!

 

[Brakelite]

Ok, let me break this down about the "Rest" in God or as some think " Sabbath", in my own understanding.........

MATTHEW 15:9 KJV
"But in vain they do WORSHIP me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

In regards to what we know of what folks term the "Sabbath". IS it imperative to ***what the day is called***? The word plainly says 7th day rest, correct?..... Our calendar is NOT the same as the Jewish calendar or possibly the first Jewish congregations as per Moses & I find it irrelevant as to Saturday being the end of, or Sunday being the end of the week. For I believe our rest is in him. Furthermore;

Mark 2: 25-28
25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

****27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and NOT MAN for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.****

Today folks think Sabbath is going to " church", I say this..

HEBREWS 10:25 KJV
"Not forsaking the ASSEMBLING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

In assembly worship>>>>>>
Colossians 3:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
In private worship>>>>>>
Ephesians 5:19 - Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Both & all worship must be TO THE LORD

MATTHEW CHAPTER 12 KJV
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have CONDEMNED the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even if the Sabbath.
9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:

JOHN 4:23 KJV
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father IN SPIRIT and IN TRUTH: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."

JOHN 4:24 KJV
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

HEBREWS 4:3KJV
"For we which have believed do enter into REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."

Can you elaborate on a couple of points... scriptures... you posted above please, just so I can be clear on your intentions and meaning in quoting them? The first is,
1. Quote...In regards to what we know of what folks term the "Sabbath". IS it imperative to ***what the day is called***? ...Our calendar is NOT the same as the Jewish calendar or possibly the first Jewish congregations as per Moses.

Please explain how and when the calender changed to affect the 7 day weekly cycle.

2.

For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.

This scripture is quoted numerous times by those opposing the observance of the Sabbath, but not once have I seen anyone explain why, and what they think is the significance of this in helping them in their argument. Can you please help me understand why this scripture is so often offered as a reason to ignore the Sabbath? I have no issue with the scripture itself. Of course Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. He established the Sabbath Himself at creation, it is His day. The Lord's Day. Elsewhere in scripture the prophets often refer to the Sabbath as being the Sabbath of the Lord, so yeah, I have no issue with that scripture. Please explain how it helps your cause in substituting obedience with "resting in Christ". Ought Christians to be doing both?

3. When you quote Hebrews 4:3, to what works do you think God is referring to that were finished. I ask because you bolded that particular portion, so you seem to think it significant. Cheers. Looking forward to your reply.

 

[Brakelite]

If they deny Jesus/God and or eternal Hell fire, a HUGE red flag!

Mmmm. You seem to be confusing Seventh Day Adventists with Jehovah Witnesses. Seventh Day Adventists have never, ever, denied Christ's divinity. As for eternal Hellfire as you call it, Seventh Day Adventists simply have a different perspective on the character of God than you. You claim Jesus is God, and yet characterise Him with the attributes of Greek idol...Hades. As if Jesus delights in tormenting those that offend Him without end. Because we hold to a higher estimation of God's character than others, why is that a huge red flag? After all, you still haven't offered one scripture that explicitly says, human souls shall be tormented in fire for eternity.

 

[Jack]

Mmmm. You seem to be confusing Seventh Day Adventists with Jehovah Witnesses.

Possibly

Seventh Day Adventists have never, ever, denied Christ's divinity.

That's very good to hear!

As for eternal Hellfire as you call it, Seventh Day Adventists simply have a different perspective on the character of God than you. You claim Jesus is God, and yet characterise Him with the attributes of Greek idol...Hades. As if Jesus delights in tormenting those that offend Him without end. Because we hold to a higher estimation of God's character than others, why is that a huge red flag? After all, you still haven't offered one scripture that explicitly says, human souls shall be tormented in fire for eternity.

I haven't? lol

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Brakelite]

Quote...me... Addressed to Jack...
After all, you still haven't offered one scripture that explicitly says, human souls shall be tormented in fire for eternity.

Jack's response...

I haven't? lol

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I think Jack needs your help. It I need it. Someone needs someone's help here guys... For the life of me I cannot see anywhere in the above texts that declares sinners will be tormented in fire for all eternity. I just can't. So maybe help me out here, anybody? Am I that daft that I can't read simple English in my old age? Or is it that Jack sees something in there that I cannot? HELP!!!!!
WHAT I CAN SEE....
Sinners are sent into everlasting fire, that was not prepared nor intended for them, but rather for the devil and his angels. In order to accomplish this feat, those sinners, the accursed, have to depart from God. This to my mind means that apart from God, they must separate themselves from the only source of life. Thus, they die, presumably in the fire. It does not say they live forever in that fire, even though the fire lasts forever. DOES IT??

Secondly, I see that this lake of fire, (assuming it is the same fire... [hellfire that Jack speaks of]...for that hasn't been established yet) becomes the habitation for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. I can live with that... But can sinners? I don't see sinners in that fire being tormented forever. In another context, I would agree that sinners are in the lake of fire at one stage, but is that Hellfire (whatever that is) and do they live forever being tormented? I don't see that. Not in the above verses that Jack tells us form the basis for his belief in eternal torment. I mean, if that's the basis for such a serious far reaching impactful and controversial doctrine, wouldn't you think it would be a little more forthcoming in specific phrases and language actually teaching that? But it doesn't. Nowhere. Just hints and suggestions that someone, someone like Jack for example, must improvise, speculate, and add opinion and preconceived ideas to in order to substantiate his argument. I don't think that is good biblical study theory. It's called eisegesis. Taking your personal ideas to scripture in order to prove them, rather than extracting doctrine from scripture, and adopting them.

 

[Jack]

Quote...me... Addressed to Jack...
After all, you still haven't offered one scripture that explicitly says, human souls shall be tormented in fire for eternity.

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Jack's response...

I think Jack needs your help. It I need it. Someone needs someone's help here guys... For the life of me I cannot see anywhere in the above texts that declares sinners will be tormented in fire for all eternity. I just can't. So maybe help me out here, anybody? Am I that daft that I can't read simple English in my old age? Or is it that Jack sees something in there that I cannot? HELP!!!!!
WHAT I CAN SEE....
Sinners are sent into everlasting fire, that was not prepared nor intended for them, but rather for the devil and his angels. In order to accomplish this feat, those sinners, the accursed, have to depart from God. This to my mind means that apart from God, they must separate themselves from the only source of life. Thus, they die, presumably in the fire. It does not say they live forever in that fire, even though the fire lasts forever. DOES IT??

Secondly, I see that this lake of fire, (assuming it is the same fire... [hellfire that Jack speaks of]...for that hasn't been established yet) becomes the habitation for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. I can live with that... But can sinners? I don't see sinners in that fire being tormented forever. In another context, I would agree that sinners are in the lake of fire at one stage, but is that Hellfire (whatever that is) and do they live forever being tormented? I don't see that. Not in the above verses that Jack tells us form the basis for his belief in eternal torment. I mean, if that's the basis for such a serious far reaching impactful and controversial doctrine, wouldn't you think it would be a little more forthcoming in specific phrases and language actually teaching that? But it doesn't. Nowhere. Just hints and suggestions that someone, someone like Jack for example, must improvise, speculate, and add opinion and preconceived ideas to in order to substantiate his argument. I don't think that is good biblical study theory. It's called eisegesis. Taking your personal ideas to scripture in order to prove them, rather than extracting doctrine from scripture, and adopting them.

'The rich man also died'
'being in torments'
'He cried'
'I am tormented in this flame.'
'you are tormented.'

Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell. Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people there is no eternal Hell!

 

[quietthinker]

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

'The rich man also died'
'being in torments'
'He cried'
'I am tormented in this flame.'
'you are tormented.'

Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell. Satan LOVES it when his messengers convince people there is no eternal Hell!

How can one engage a meaningful discussion when you can't tell the difference between a story told for the purpose of making a point and a theological position Jack? It's like saying the boy who cried wolf means it's not a good idea to cry wolf.

 

[Jack]

How can one engage a meaningful discussion when you can't tell the difference between a story told for the purpose of making a point and a theological position Jack?

Your opinions do not overrule Jesus!

Matthew 13
38 ; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Jack]

How can one engage a meaningful discussion when you can't tell the difference between a story told for the purpose of making a point and a theological position Jack? It's like saying the boy who cried wolf means it's not a good idea to cry wolf.

Jesus certainly made a point!

'The rich man also died'
'being in torments'
'He cried'
'I am tormented in this flame.'
'you are tormented.'

 

[quietthinker]

Why don't you try quoting Scriptures like I do???

Matthew 13
38 ; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Because you wouldn't understand them. You conflate scriptures with a fixed idea in your head and refuse to understand, even hear the broader context....instead, you just harp on like a broken record with the same texts.....and you think you're saying something.

It's like a child who figures everything he needs to learn is done by the second grade. In its own mind it might think it's informed but others are left shaking their heads.

 

[Jack]

Because you wouldn't understand them. You conflate scriptures with a fixed idea in your head and refuse to understand, even hear the broader context....instead, you just harp on like a broken record with the same texts.....and you think you're saying something.

It's like a child who figures everything he needs to learn is done by the second grade. In its own mind it might think it's informed but others are left shaking their heads.

Your unBiblical opinions do not overrule Jesus!

Matthew 18
8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

 

[quietthinker]

Your unBiblical opinions do not overrule Jesus!

Matthew 18
8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Have you ever done that? ie, cut you hand or your foot off when it offends you? or have they never offended you?

 

[Jack]

Have you ever done that? ie, cut you hand or your foot off when it offends you? or have they never offended you?

Jesus was warning us how HORRIBLE the everlasting fire will be. Pay attention! It might save you from the eternal Hell fire!

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus was warning us how HORRIBLE the everlasting fire will be. Pay attention!

what? you don't think he meant what he said?

 

[Jack]

what? you don't think he meant what he said?

Of course not, because cutting off your hand won't save you from Hell. His message is perfectly clear!

 

[quietthinker]

Of course not, because cutting off your hand won't save you from Hell.

Then according to your logic, your opinion does not trump Jesus' words......and what's more, you're calling him a liar.

 

[Jack]

Then according to your logic, your opinion does not trump Jesus' words......and what's more, you're calling him a liar.

Well if I'm wrong I don't have to worry about "the everlasting" fire. If you're wrong, you can't say the same.

 

[quietthinker]

Well if I'm wrong I don't have to worry about "the everlasting" fire. If you're wrong, you can't say the same.

Understanding well is the objective of all who have fallen in love with Jesus while those who haven't willingly believe and quote the scriptures out of context.

 

[Jack]

Understanding well is the objective of all who have fallen in love with Jesus while those who haven't willingly believe and quote the scriptures out of context.

So the Scriptures you don't like are 'out of context'. Do you ever quote Scripture?

Matthew 5
22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[quietthinker]

So the Scriptures you don't like are 'out of context'. Do you ever quote Scripture?

Matthew 5
22 Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

You might remember that scripture Jack, seeing you quote it so often......remember it for yourself because nobody is calling you a fool, so if you weren't calling others a fool, why are you quoting it?