Gates, Rocks and Keys

[JohnDB]

and Paul was the last chosen Apostle by Christ. John was the last of the Apostles who died at the end of the 1st century. No more Apostles.

hope this helps !!!

Well we aren't exactly sure of when John wrote his Revelation...or his precise date of death.
I know that they have cut up the poor guy and have his fingers in scepters so overly glorified that they look like street lights...

But the problem with John's life end is that it will provide dates that upset applecarts of theological positions regarding prophecy.

Too early and people get upset...the date you propose is from another theological position...and of course upsets people.
The one half line of (trying to remember his name) that they are basing your position on is really, really shakey ground. Just saying...

 

[theefaith]

Moses's only successor was Jesus. Joshua may have looked like Moses's successor but he really wasn't. His name is actually the same as Jesus' in Hebrew but we spell it different so we don't confuse the two. But it's essentially the same exact name.

Aaron was the High Priest. He had successors.

the successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!


Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors in the church founded in the one true founded by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

(None of the so called reformers were apostles)

 

[theefaith]

and Paul was the last chosen Apostle by Christ. John was the last of the Apostles who died at the end of the 1st century. No more Apostles.

hope this helps !!!

the apostles have all authority same a Jesus and who they make as apostles are apostles! Matt 28:18 all authority
Jn 20:21-22 as the father sent me same authority
Acts 1 Apostles make Mathias the successors of Judas

the new covenant church exists to the end of the world so must the apostles
Matt 28:19

where two or three of the members of Christ gather in His name He is there!

but with the apostles Matt 28:19 He say behold I am with you (the apostles until the end of the world do there must be apostles until the end of the world!!!

 

[ChristisGod]

where two or three of the members of Christ gather in His name He is there!

Really quote the scripture, do you understand the context of your claim ?

its confronting a brother/sister in sin.

Matthew 18:15-20
15 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

19 “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. 20 For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”

 

[JohnDB]

the successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses

This is absolutely untrue...
Rabbi weren't necessarily Levites.

They could have come from any of the 12 tribes.

You of course are trying to support the Catholic Church's theological position...but misrepresentation of known anthropology and History isn't going to help your case.

 

[theefaith]

There are no self-appointed apostles or preachers or pastors but a hierarchy!
Authority always has a hierarchy!

start with Peter as the head of the church on earth appointed by Christ!

 

[JohnDB]

There are no self-appointed apostles or preachers or pastors but a hierarchy!
Authority always has a hierarchy!

start with Peter as the head of the church on earth appointed by Christ!

Ummmmm if you know the history of these people you really wouldn't say that.

 

[theefaith]

This is absolutely untrue...
Rabbi weren't necessarily Levites.

They could have come from any of the 12 tribes.

You of course are trying to support the Catholic Church's theological position...but misrepresentation of known anthropology and History isn't going to help your case.

who ever they are in your mind they are in the seat of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and Jesus commanded this authority and power to be obeyed!

 

[theefaith]

Ummmmm if you know the history of these people you really wouldn't say that.

They are men human and sinners, I never claimed they were impeccable? Was Moses perfect?

Paul was a sinner yet He had the ministry of reconciliation?

First apostle Peter:
Mt 10:2
Jesus and Peter are one:
Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom:
Mt 17:27
Peter commanded to confirm his breathren:
Lk 22:32
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep: Jn 21:17
Peter is the prince of the apostles, head of the universal church on earth!

Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins: Jn 20:21-23
Peter declares Judas office of apostle valid and vacant and chooses a successor: acts 1:15 & 17 & 26
Peter preaches the first sermon on Pentecost: acts 2:14

 

[JohnDB]

The SBC (an organization larger than the Catholics in SOME ways) is always had people pointing fingers at the president of the organization.
Because they believe that the president of the organization actually has some sort of power to do anything.
The only power the president of the SBC has is in pounding the gavel to call convention meetings to order.

The head of the IMB (a section of the SBC)is the only one with some power...it isn't much though. He has the strings to the purse for the missions for the missionaries.
And lately he is informed of what decision he can make by the accountants that balance the books.

Lifeway is the literature section of the SBC but it stands separate from the SBC itself and has to manage it's own affairs itself.

The SBC is a convention... completely without true leadership. The whole convention votes on everything. Churches can come and go at will. There's no heirchy whatsoever. The reason being is that no one is able to lead the others in a direction that differs from the designed function of the group as a whole. There's no deviation from the established principles.
Same thing with the Apostles of old.

Where I can see that you are grasping for the authority of the Catholic Church...with the past two Popes you really are going to have a difficult time of that. (The latest denying the basic tenants of belief and faith being necessary for salvation...and did it publicly)

So...yeah... succession authority is very much a myth.

 

[theefaith]

SBC is not in the new covenant body of Christ!

and I have doubts that the last 6 popes are valid!

but the office is see Is 22
The church is not a democracy and not a spiritual anarchy but a kingdom and a covenant with requirements and hierarchical authority!

no king ever administers his own kingdom

Joseph administered the kingdom of pharaoh

and Jesus the mediator ascended to heaven? The mediator always remains on earth mediating between God and His members and Jesus appointed Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

Without a central authority the can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people

The nature of authority is hierarchy!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

(None of the so called reformers were apostles)

 

[bbyrd009]

Forgiveness of sins is God's responsibility...that would be along the lines of judgement....again God's job. Not ours.

Stephan's last words when he was getting stoned reflects this.

forgive, and you will be forgiven

 

[bbyrd009]

No one else seems to be responding to you here. What do you think?

um, maybe its time to head for the mountains? dunno

"...there is none good but one, that is, God:..."

So then if every good man is also God consider this:

"And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:" Luke 23:50

Is Joseph of Arimathea designated as good also then God? Is that not a fair question?

seems fair to me, yeh

Jesus is not denying that he, himself is good! He is saying that only God is good and certainly Jesus was not lying. So we perhaps should conclude that anytime any person does anything that God would call good, that God must be involved in that person's good action. For a person filled with the Holy Spirit, we may say fine and dandy, but then for the unbeliever who does good things, what is our understanding?

i think we're in a room full of knowledge, and understanding has fallen by the way

 

[JohnDB]

um, maybe its time to head for the mountains? dunno
seems fair to me, yeh

Sorry about that...
Too many people all posting at the same time and I miss stuff...

There's a cross between the two books of the Gospel accounts.

Luke's Gospel is written to people of Greek/Roman society.
Matthew's account is written to the rich/elite of Israeli society...
Mark's account was written to the common man of Israeli society;
and John's account was written to defend against many of the theological arguments facing them at the time.

Do when Luke says someone is a "good" man it has a completely different connotation than when listed in Matthew amongst the Jews and Rabbi.

 

[bbyrd009]

question what is ‘does a good thing’? Found often my ‘does a good thing’ is not really for another person (although said to be for them) but is instead to benefit self.

ya, they didnt have the term "codependent" back then, but that is what you are describing, and imo pretty much what we can witness here; ppl with "good intentions" convinced that they know the truth, a la the "sprinkling, raining" kids?

 

[bbyrd009]

The "Pharisees" looked good...seemed to act right and did all the right things. They didn't self appoint themselves as spiritual leaders of their respective communities. They had verified charity projects and good works. They also knew the Law and were very careful about following it. They were appointed to ensure others followed the Law as well.
But Jesus condemned them.
And Jesus explained how and why.

It's that heart condition that matters most.

When corporations give money away they ensure that they have a press release about it. There's no giving without one. They want everyone to see exactly what and to whom they're giving money to. (Gates Foundation)

Now then... Jesus said the exact opposite.
He told people not to tell who healed them. (They did it anyway) He told people not to tell others that he was the Messiah. (They did it anyway) Jesus regularly hid his true identity (up to a point) from everyone.

Completely opposite of what the Pharisees and Rabbi did...
As such, Jesus was the least popular of the several messiahs running around. (About four that I know of) but He was the real thing.
And Jesus proved it on many occasions.

I'm thinking that we aren't so much different today than all those 2,000 years ago. We elect religious leaders and put them on pedestals. Their names proliferate every Christian forum including this one... and I am scratching my head pondering this situation.

what is "satan's dialectic" iyo?

Sorry about that...
Too many people all posting at the same time and I miss stuff...

There's a cross between the two books of the Gospel accounts.

Luke's Gospel is written to people of Greek/Roman society.
Matthew's account is written to the rich/elite of Israeli society...
Mark's account was written to the common man of Israeli society;
and John's account was written to defend against many of the theological arguments facing them at the time.

Do when Luke says someone is a "good" man it has a completely different connotation than when listed in Matthew amongst the Jews and Rabbi.

ah, so

 

[bbyrd009]

and Paul was the last chosen Apostle by Christ. John was the last of the Apostles who died at the end of the 1st century. No more Apostles.

hope this helps !!!

so then Jesus did not send 72, and then 12?

 

[JohnDB]

SBC is not in the new covenant body of Christ!

and I have doubts that the last 6 popes are valid!

but the office is see Is 22
The church is not a democracy and not a spiritual anarchy but a kingdom and a covenant with requirements and hierarchical authority!

no king ever administers his own kingdom

Joseph administered the kingdom of pharaoh

and Jesus the mediator ascended to heaven? The mediator always remains on earth mediating between God and His members and Jesus appointed Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

Without a central authority the can be no unity of the spirit, no obedience to the faith!
God - Christ - Peter - the apostles - the apostles successors - the people

The nature of authority is hierarchy!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

(None of the so called reformers were apostles)

Westcott and Hort and Eadie and Lightfoot were definitely all apostolic in nature.

Every last one of them had to leave the Catholic Church and join in with other groups. Not a one of them were looking for fame and fortune...none of them tried ernestly to be in the positions they ended up in.
Small wonder as they put their lives in danger for the positions they held and had to flee.

Hort was actually the odd man out from this group. He actually did more of the financials than theologicals. Westcott didn't even work on scriptures until asked...his focus was on Ancient Near East literature...not scriptures. But his knowledge of ANE literature helped us today with commemtary on scriptures that is unmistakably the truth...
Similar stories can be had about Eadie and Lightfoot...they became friends with Westcott and Hort. Some of their work paved the way forward outside of Calvinism and Lutheranism. The Anglican Church gave them quarter...but... mostly because they weren't trying to kill them like everyone else was (including the Catholics who wanted to burn them like they did Wycliffe's bones)

 

[bbyrd009]

all of them committed to Death, More Abundantly, to a man
right

There are no self-appointed apostles or preachers or pastors but a hierarchy!
Authority always has a hierarchy!

start with Peter as the head of the church on earth appointed by Christ!

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

but mostly i think this is why Catholics should have their own section, as they are obviously a culture apart from Protestants. Your presence here can only sow more strife, wadr; the teachings of the Roman "church" are heresy to a Christian. Why not go and worship your pantheon where you will be accepted for it?

 

[JohnDB]

what is "satan's dialectic" iyo?

I have never heard that phrase before.

so then Jesus did not send 72, and then 12?

It was first 12 and then @72.
Both sendings were given completely different missions.
And that's also important.

Now the gospel accounts actually differ...
Pay close attention to Mark's account because it genuinely belongs to Peter...Mark penned it but Peter said it. So his version of the sending of the 12 is different.

The sending of the 72 was symbolic of the start of a New Nation...just like when Jacob moved the whole family to Egypt because Joseph was going to take care of them. There was 72 in that group too.